Engineers - 5+ levels of grind...When is grind too much

[Straha Yeagar]

We've had a looong time: 2+ years! Even I have a fully engineered ship that is PvP capable.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong...but isn't this long term project exactly what Frontier had in mind with Engineers? Outliers will happen in terms of time devoted to engineering; if they happen to be PvP players - then yeah, there's going to be a biiig barrier to entry! IIRC, some dude unlocked ALL of the original engineers in less than two weeks - when it was hard!:O - from the 2.1 live launch date! 'Good job it wasn't Harry Potter! This will always happen...the rest of us have to catch up!

The reason some feel Engineers is a huge grind is because the whole thing turned into an arms race in 'Open'. I've said it before...but the original engineers design was fine for 'Solo' play - long-winded, but who cares, right? Time is relative & when there is no-one to compete with, you'll probably just get around to it eventually.

I would have created a system whereby you unlock grade 1, but there is an imposed 4-6 weeks (insert arbitrary period) similar to PP in principle, before you can unlock grade 2 & so on. This would mean that the hardcore elements unlock them in a few days, but there is a natural cooling-off period before the next upgrade is allowed. This enables each level of upgrade to be utilised, maxed-out & thoroughly tested, thereby also making low level engineering meaningful in the game while regulating some of the power variance between players.

The hardcore players would have had these advantages sooner, but in the 6 months or so after, their ships/weapons would not have been as overwhelming in 'your' random 1v1 contest & there would have been less desperation to rush to get that G5 ship. Huge imbalances would still occur of course because of the nature of the varied playerbase & time v reward mechanics...but this might have helped for emergent PvP & more importantly, for the general attitude towards 'the grind'.

'Too late now, though! [big grin]

The original design intent was to allow commanders to tweak and customize their ship...to have a unique ship. Then the minmaxing meta started, as was inevitable, where in order to engage in what some perceive as top tier PvP combat, all the ships ended up being pretty close to the same, and unfortunately, the new engineering system is going to make things even more homogeneous for those who choose to play that way.

I think one important difference between Elite and other games that some seem to ignore, or are simply so mentally ingrained in a certain style of gaming...ultimately there is no competition in Elite besides what a person puts into their own mind. Elite is not zero sum where one persons gain has to be someone elses loss.

 

[Karunamon]

Hyperbole alert!

No, you are not 'locked out' of anything. Neither am I.

I'm logged into open right now, in a python that is not even remotely kitted (let alone engineered) to win PvP battles - hell, it's barely kitted for PvE. But that's on me - in all the excitement of the multimillion credit missions on offer after each CG finishes, I completely forgot to swap out my mining loadout before taking cargo missions with hostile ships. So here I am, in Open, flying a python armed with mining lasers, prospector limpet controller, 2 collection limpet controllers, and a refinery. I've seen a dozen hollow squares, and been interdicted three times (by NPCs). Not dead yet. Not locked out of open.

*Mandatory unless you're incredibly lucky.

 

[Vorxian]

Engineers in Elite is basically 'enchanting' in any other mmo.

No other MMO has so many hoops to jump through to get some basic enchants going.. Even the most popular mmo has enchanting scale, and a free abundance of materials to disenchant to level your skill... plus... every person can learn enchanting, there isn't just one NPC that has rep walls behind to allow players to get into the enchanting thing.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Engineers in Elite is basically 'enchanting' in any other mmo.

No other MMO has so many hoops to jump through to get some basic enchants going.. Even the most popular mmo has enchanting scale, and a free abundance of materials to disenchant to level your skill... plus... every person can learn enchanting, there isn't just one NPC that has rep walls behind to allow players to get into the enchanting thing.

http://www.puntlandobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Hit-the-Nail.jpg

All science looks like magic if you don't know how it works. What do you think an iron age person would think of planes or cars. Magic.

 

[Vorxian]

All science looks like magic if you don't know how it works. What do you think an iron age person would think of planes or cars. Magic.

Enchanted horse!

ok enchanted metal plated horse, with a +50 speed modifier

EDIT: doh... that's more like a motorbike [big grin]

 

[Stewart_]

It is if you want anything to do with PvP. Enough with this falsehood.

Erm, no not at all. Engineering isn't mandatory in the game.

Please specify which parts of my post are falsehoods.

 

[Stewart_]

Yep, you have to play for a looong time until you get a ship that is competitive. Neat, huh.

How is Elite different to any other MMO PvP game? Its not: you have to do a certain amount of 'work' to become competitve.

 

[Oss133]

I have nothing engineered.

 

[Funny]

My problem is primarily with the second unlock phase of the engineers. Engineer rank isn’t that big a deal, especially in the new system. Having to ship 50 units of rare goods is just a painful time sink though :S

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Well, I tried.



Is that still a valid statement, though?

I feel like if you play in open, they are probably mandatory. Either that or logging as soon as you see another player.

I unlocked most of the Engineers and engineered most of my ships, but I feel bad about people starting out or the ones who try to ignore engineers.

I think people aren't taking Beyond in as a whole, because they're too focused on the parts that make it up.

The new Engineering is being seen by most as more accessible and predictable than the old, and many friends of mine who passed the first time are intrigued with trying it this time. But it's still optional, moreso than before, because of the way the new Crime and Punishment is going to start dishing out consequences to people who murder. Especially now that the fines and bounties are slated to start seeing engineered modules as more valuable, for purposes of how much of the killer's rebuy is added to the bounty.

 

[Mohrgan]

At this point, it looks like the word: 'Grind' has been all but devalued. Crying "Wolf" comes to mind.

 

[DaggerSnake]

At this point, it looks like the word: 'Grind' has been all but devalued. Crying "Wolf" comes to mind.

I just replace “Grind” with “Play Elite” in all the threads. Seems to work out pretty well

Ung I’m sick of grinding -> Ung I’m sick of playing Elite

I can’t belive I have to grind for days just to get a Corvette -> I can’t belive I have to play Elite for days just to get a Corvette

 

[Dbrn47]

Ah the old bit where we go back and forth talking about grind and how it's in the mind. Exciting stuff. Let me help you out OP, instead of even bringing up grind, just start talking about what they can do to make the activities more engaging. Since people can't even seem to agree on the definition of grind, what it is and whether or not it exists, your best bet is to get them to agree with simply how to make the loop more fun. It'll be much more productive that way since they'll be more willing to pull their head out of the sand for a few minutes to get some actual ideas going.

 

[Clifra Jones]

Thou shalt honor the grind and keep it holy!

 

[Clifra Jones]

I just replace “Grind” with “Play Elite” in all the threads. Seems to work out pretty well

Ung I’m sick of grinding -> Ung I’m sick of playing Elite

I can’t belive I have to grind for days just to get a Corvette -> I can’t belive I have to play Elite for days just to get a Corvette

Replace "Play Elite" with "work, that should cover it.

I can't believe I have to work every day, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week just to get a house and a car and food!

The mantra if a new generation:
"Freedom is when you don't have to pay for nothing or do nothing, we want to be free!"
--Frank Zappa

 

[Durden T.]

I just replace “Grind” with “Play Elite” in all the threads. Seems to work out pretty well

Ung I’m sick of grinding -> Ung I’m sick of playing Elite

I can’t belive I have to grind for days just to get a Corvette -> I can’t belive I have to play Elite for days just to get a Corvette

For me, it's not exactly that way.

I started the Engineers thing two or three months ago, and I must admit I've been somehow forced to do things I had never attempted before in game, like Mining, or planet landing, or infiltrating outposts with an SRV to scan datapoints, and many more... and I'd lie if I tell that I haven't enjoyed each and every one of them...

But, when the game asks you to deliver 50 units of rare goods, and the game itself doesn't allow you to carry more than 10 at the same time (so you have to make 5 delivers of 10 units each), then I start to feel like it doesn't make any sense, at all... There is absolutely no reason for asking this to the player at that point, and it's certainly not funny, specially when you've been two month gathering different amounts of crazy different mats/data, non stop (and being some of them really difficult to find)...

So, it seems to me that all this grind is the result of developers trying to make it difficult for the player to get to a certain degree of Engineering, which I understand. The problem is that the mechanic FD uses to make things hard to the player is always some new grindy way of collecting something... There are no fun mechanics, or mechanics that involve player skills in other areas rather than patience, insane amount of time and recollection...

For me, that is the real problem with all this Engineers stuff and with FD as a developer, the apparent lack of real funny mechanics to unlock rewards to the player... it's always a new grind...

 

[verminstar]

If the player wants another hand at the table, then everyone at the table has to pay the ante...gamblers who rely on lady luck will destroy their entire lives to be sitting at that table.

Welcome to the RNGeers...funny how real world comparisons can be quite entertaining when ye think about how it works and how its designed to warp weak minds into addiction...funny old world this sometimes ^

 

[CMDR Mayhem]

A artificial wall that slows down your gameplay(wastes time), intentionally... to me is a grind. That is a fact, there is no other way to put it.
No matter what your beliefs are or if you think "it is in your mind" or "that it is not compulsory"... it is irrelevant and a strawman.
If you dont believe it is intentionally implemented this way, that is your opinion, but clearly it is not what FD have said. They supported this decision by announcing that they thought engineering should take more time. So please people, stop with the "grinding doesn't exist, it's in your head" non sense.

 

[Roybe]

A artificial wall that slows down your gameplay(wastes time), intentionally... to me is a grind. That is a fact, there is no other way to put it.
No matter what your beliefs are or if you think "it is in your mind" or "that it is not compulsory"... it is irrelevant and a strawman.
If you dont believe it is intentionally implemented this way, that is your opinion, but clearly it is not what FD have said. They supported this decision by announcing that they thought engineering should take more time. So please people, stop with the "grinding doesn't exist, it's in your head" non sense.

Well at least time gating isn't a grind...

 

[Mohrgan]

Just because one can agree on the proper label for an issue, doesn't make it a bad thing. Having something you have to put time into, isn't a bad thing. It asks you to prioritize your goals, and consider your investment. I am not ready to judge things poorly, just because you can't finish it up in one sitting. Splitting hairs over the mechanic that asks for your time is pointless. The single commodity a Commander has for progression and achievement in E|D is Time. And, I should hope it stays that way.