Engineers Engineers RNG is stupid

[Blackcompany]

Its just absolutely hilarious to me that this "feature" is so bad that two patches later and with a point release imminent, it still headlines the forums.
I have been a PC gamer since '96 and in the 20 years past i dont think i have seen anything quite like it

Months of dev time culminating in a copy pasta crafting system from a bog standard fantasy he, with a tacked on slot machine handle, roulette wheel and massive, multi layered RNG grind.

It's embarrassing, honestly.

 

[Tryst]

i dont think i have seen anything quite like it

I have in EQ. You farm mats for crafting and then gamble on the chance of getting a success on an item that improves your skill. I did Blacksmithing and got to Journeyman before giving up completely. After spending days farming a dozen ingots from mobs that took me ages to kill, I got one good roll, a 1% increase on my skills for all that work farming. The worst of it was, I could buy more ingots from the player market from the plat I'd earned by killing all those mobs and selling all the unwanted loot to NPC vendors than I got from the mobs themselves. The only good part was the higher levels who were farming it and selling the ingots couldn't farm it while you were camped there, it was a code of conduct that while you were farming a particular spot, others couldn't come in and Kill Steal or leave you with nothing left to kill, they had to ask your permission to kill those mobs and only then if it was for a quest. However, it was my first lesson in RNG based crafting and I hated it back then too.

Eve had the best idea for a time sink. It was a TIME sink since everything took a period of time to "cook" but the results were always successful. You used a BP and the mats to make a module or a ship at a lab and it took a specific period of time to make it. Also, the mats were easily available but the level of the item being made required more of the more expensive mats from lowsec or 0.0 and more time to manufacture.

I like it, personally. Being guaranteed to get good rolls would remove all the satisfaction from it.

No it won't. It would only remove the grind and a lot more players would be a lot happier. It's the players who pay the cash that keeps the company going, at the end of the day, too many unhappy players means less income from the next update. Keep making them unhappy and you won't have a game any more.

 

[Ozric]

The only trouble with engineers is how the are primarily combat focused as with most other recent things. This opens up a very big problem: min/maxers. The whole system was designed so that not everybody would have the best of everything, but of course that's not good enough for you is it? You need to have max stats on everything, otherwise the whole system is a failure. The complaints first started because of the weapons, then the special effects (only on weapons). So many complaints got FD to change the special effects, so many more complaints got them to drop the commodities. You can't just spend all your time complaining that things aren't done the way you want them to be done and the way you say they should be done.

Engineers were designed to be RNG, they're going to stay RNG. To say that you should have all positive rolls on upgrades with no negative effects is not only wrong, but again completely against how they were designed and imagined.

Eve had the best idea for a time sink. It was a TIME sink since everything took a period of time to "cook" but the results were always successful. You used a BP and the mats to make a module or a ship at a lab and it took a specific period of time to make it. Also, the mats were easily available but the level of the item being made required more of the more expensive mats from lowsec or 0.0 and more time to manufacture.

Time sink is definitely the right words but define easy The entire crux of your comparison is not mentioning that it only works because of the market, which is entirely things made by other players. Something that can't happen in Elite. If you want to do it yourself then you need to do Planetary Interaction. How many months of training does it take to get the required skills, then you need to find a suitable planet, build a Command Centre, ECUs, Extractors, Processors, Storage, wait the week for the extraction/processing to take place. All the time hoping another group of players don't come along and blow everything up. Not to mention setting up, running and maintaining a POS. Then you'd need to mine and refine all of the ore also necessary to build. I realise that PI is for Tier 2 and above, but do you really think that people complaining about engineers would be happy with T1 stuff? Plus how long did it take manufacturing in EvE to get to that stage after it was introduced into the game?

 

[Kosmetas]

...wasting some rolls on all negative effects, how immersive and realistic is that? Simple answer...it isnt at all. Noone in their right mind would pay for a negative upgrade...

Simple answer...it is! Human nature, we have been gambling on the hopes of better outcomes, knowing the odds favor the negatives , since the beginning of time. So many across the planet play some form of gambling knowing the house has the edge. Just think about it, Bingo, cards, slots and the many variations of lotteries.

Not just gambling but relationships are a prime example. How many partners do we take knowing that they are most likely not going to make the cut as marriage material? Even if the do make the cut what is the divorce rate these days?

 

[Tryst]

Time sink is definitely the right words but define easy The entire crux of your comparison is not mentioning that it only works because of the market, which is entirely things made by other players. Something that can't happen in Elite. If you want to do it yourself then you need to do Planetary Interaction. How many months of training does it take to get the required skills, then you need to find a suitable planet, build a Command Centre, ECUs, Extractors, Processors, Storage, wait the week for the extraction/processing to take place. All the time hoping another group of players don't come along and blow everything up. Not to mention setting up, running and maintaining a POS. Then you'd need to mine and refine all of the ore also necessary to build. I realise that PI is for Tier 2 and above, but do you really think that people complaining about engineers would be happy with T1 stuff? Plus how long did it take manufacturing in EvE to get to that stage after it was introduced into the game?

It definitely wasn't easy to do but that was the point. The whole concept revolved around gameplay, not just the player market. I used to build Orca's in Highsec and Dreadnoughts in Lowsec so I do know what was required for it, cap ships were probably the hardest thing to build and took forever to cook in the lab. Our corp had a POS in Lowsec and we were allied to the local corporations too with ties to nullsec alliances so getting the mats was a lot easier for me but it still took a lot of effort to get there. However, the rewards were worth the effort it took and it was also a lot of fun getting to that point. That is the whole point. It requires a lot of effort that encompasses the gameplay and provides a long term goal that keeps players playing, it wasn't JUST mindless farming of NPC's.

The current RNGineers is just another short term goal with a huge RNG based time sink that annoys players rather than keeps them playing. It's no fun getting there, it's purely a boring grind and once you've got your upgrades, a rebuy restores them. That makes RNGineers a one off. So what happens to RNGineers when we all have maxed out upgrades? The answer is simple, they become redundant, a total waste of DEV resources in creating them. The obvious answer is one I pointed out before, make them easier to approach, a guaranteed upgrade and the mats fairly easy to get but when you lose your ship, you only get stock modules without the engineers upgrades. Now the engineers get used over and over and there's more than a cost associated with losing your ship. It's not hard to replace the upgrades, it's merely an inconvenience, but for those who have billions of credits, losing a ship is a little more than just a giggle. I have enough money that I can currently lose my Python over and over without even noticing it. It always come back with the same upgrades it had before so there isn't any loss at all for me. If I knew I had to farm some more mats and visit all the engineers to upgrade my ship again, I'd be a little less blasé about getting blown up.

 

[Blackcompany]

It definitely wasn't easy to do but that was the point. The whole concept revolved around gameplay, not just the player market. I used to build Orca's in Highsec and Dreadnoughts in Lowsec so I do know what was required for it, cap ships were probably the hardest thing to build and took forever to cook in the lab. Our corp had a POS in Lowsec and we were allied to the local corporations too with ties to nullsec alliances so getting the mats was a lot easier for me but it still took a lot of effort to get there. However, the rewards were worth the effort it took and it was also a lot of fun getting to that point. That is the whole point. It requires a lot of effort that encompasses the gameplay and provides a long term goal that keeps players playing, it wasn't JUST mindless farming of NPC's.

The current RNGineers is just another short term goal with a huge RNG based time sink that annoys players rather than keeps them playing. It's no fun getting there, it's purely a boring grind and once you've got your upgrades, a rebuy restores them. That makes RNGineers a one off. So what happens to RNGineers when we all have maxed out upgrades? The answer is simple, they become redundant, a total waste of DEV resources in creating them. The obvious answer is one I pointed out before, make them easier to approach, a guaranteed upgrade and the mats fairly easy to get but when you lose your ship, you only get stock modules without the engineers upgrades. Now the engineers get used over and over and there's more than a cost associated with losing your ship. It's not hard to replace the upgrades, it's merely an inconvenience, but for those who have billions of credits, losing a ship is a little more than just a giggle. I have enough money that I can currently lose my Python over and over without even noticing it. It always come back with the same upgrades it had before so there isn't any loss at all for me. If I knew I had to farm some more mats and visit all the engineers to upgrade my ship again, I'd be a little less blasé about getting blown up.

I quit playing in part because of RNGineers.

I feel like, as a player with about 10 total gaming hours per week and no time or inclination to grind for gambling, I am cut off from content I paid for.

My Solution/response: I no longer support development of this game. No more money from me unless it returns to it's sim roots.

I bought tracking and a HOTAS for THIS game...And the design direction has driven me away from playing. Fortunately I can can.put trackir to good use elsewhere, in games whose developers care about their player base. Until Elite changes direction, I'm done. One more supporter lost.

 

[m0rl0ck]

I quit playing in part because of RNGineers.


My Solution/response: I no longer support development of this game. No more money from me unless it returns to it's sim roots.

I got a refund for Horizons but i still play the basic game, mostly if there is a cg that i like, but like you i refuse to throw good money after bad.
When they fix the RNGineers i may start buying ED content again.

Cant rep you again so i owe you one

 

[metatheurgist]

I feel like, as a player with about 10 total gaming hours per week and no time or inclination to grind for gambling, I am cut off from content I paid for.

If you're playing 10hrs a week you're getting plenty of mats. Just play normally and build up a supply, eventually you'll have enough for an upgrade. No need to grind.

 

[Tryst]

If you're playing 10hrs a week you're getting plenty of mats. Just play normally and build up a supply, eventually you'll have enough for an upgrade. No need to grind.

So 10 hours of exploration/trading a week will gain you enough mats per week for a lvl5 FSD upgrade will it? You can get the relevant wake scans with a traders loadout can you?

THIS is one of the major problems with RNGineers, you can't do what you enjoy doing and get the mats, you are forced into doing things you dislike doing.

Take it from a RP aspect. I am a trader and I don't want to kill other traders to get my Chemical Manipulators to upgrade my FSD. I don't want to run around mindlessly scanning the wakes to get the scan data I need. As a trader, I have no need for a wake scanner, it's a pirate/bounty hunter tool. As a trader, why would I need a SRV? So I'm not going to collect the mats from planets as part of my normal game play. Similarly, a bounty hunter or pirate has to be a mission runner, trader and explorer to get what they need, not to mention what's required to get the RNGineer to even speak to them first.

NO! 10 hours a week playing will not get you what you need to upgrade your ship, 10 hours a week of grinding, doing things you don't want to do, is what you require. I didn't buy a game to be pushed into a style of gameplay I dislike intensely simply because RNGineer upgrades are becoming "must have" items to remain competitive.

 

[Zeeman]

Simple answer...it is! Human nature, we have been gambling on the hopes of better outcomes, knowing the odds favor the negatives , since the beginning of time. So many across the planet play some form of gambling knowing the house has the edge. Just think about it, Bingo, cards, slots and the many variations of lotteries.

Not just gambling but relationships are a prime example. How many partners do we take knowing that they are most likely not going to make the cut as marriage material? Even if the do make the cut what is the divorce rate these days?

Odd, when I buy a race exhaust system, and an ECU upgrade kit, I tend not to do it at a casino, a bar, or a church. I research the available parts on the market from various engineers, and then pick the best combination for my needs. I then hand over my money, and... Imagine, I get what I was expecting, and am happy. In my case, a 14BHP power boost, 5kg less weigh, and titanium has the bonus of having Teh Awesome™ looks...

Z...

- - - Updated - - -

If you're playing 10hrs a week you're getting plenty of mats. Just play normally and build up a supply, eventually you'll have enough for an upgrade. No need to grind.

Maybe... Or not, because, sometimes those "upgrades" are worse than what you had to being with.

Z...

 

[AgamemnonWhen]

I, too, find the idea of running around the galaxy to upgrade my vehicle a bit odd as well.

OK, some Engineers have certain 'proclivities' that mean you need to do or provide something special for them to notice you. I get that, but there ain't no 'real world' engineer that's going to turn away business because you bought them the wrong kind of tea.

As a middle ground, EVERYONE should be able to access Engineers and get reasonable upgrades by paying them (in game) money. If you want 'special favours' and experimental effects, then this is where you should be seeking out odd data or rare materials.

 

[wrmiller]

If you're playing 10hrs a week you're getting plenty of mats. Just play normally and build up a supply, eventually you'll have enough for an upgrade. No need to grind.

No, not sure who started this , but this is even close to true. For example: The ONLY upgrade I have any serious interest in is for my FSD. Unless you do SPECIFIC things at SPECIFIC sites, you will not get the trinkets needed to do the mods. I have done thousands of missions and received basically junk that I have to keep throwing away. I am pretty sure I got ONE ROLL of the stupid RNG wheel on a FSD and it turned out to be crap.

You have to play the game the way FD wants you to in order to get the trinkets. Period. I don't pirate or just go around killing ships. I do missions. Try doing exploration and see how many of the REQUIRED materials you get. [rolleyes]

 

[metatheurgist]

So 10 hours of exploration/trading a week will gain you enough mats per week for a lvl5 FSD upgrade will it? You can get the relevant wake scans with a traders loadout can you?

Yes, yes you can.

No, not sure who started this , but this is even close to true. For example: The ONLY upgrade I have any serious interest in is for my FSD. Unless you do SPECIFIC things at SPECIFIC sites, you will not get the trinkets needed to do the mods. I have done thousands of missions and received basically junk that I have to keep throwing away. I am pretty sure I got ONE ROLL of the stupid RNG wheel on a FSD and it turned out to be crap.

You have to play the game the way FD wants you to in order to get the trinkets. Period. I don't pirate or just go around killing ships. I do missions. Try doing exploration and see how many of the REQUIRED materials you get. [rolleyes]

Please, stop talking outta your butts. You obviously do not know of what you're speaking.

Chemical Manipulators are common in Combat Aftermath USS. No murder required.
Datamined Wake Exceptions will also turn up in Private Data beacons in Encoded USS (which will also sometimes drop CMs).
Arsenic is common on planets (OK, you may have to search for that one but if you're on the ground for any reason you might as well go looking).

I have 30 CMs in my mats, I haven't killed a trade ship in ages. If I'm short of them I just drop into combat aftermath when I see them. The last 15 DWE I got just from dropping into Encoded USS, I do that if I have space left in my data storage. I already had Arsenic from previous planetary trips. Without looking for mats I was able to get a brand new gunship to 54%+ FSD, and as a bonus added +3% to the python with the remaining rolls.

This is 100% actual game experience, unlike whatever you're brewing up in your imaginations.

Oh, since then I already picked up another 3 DWE from a Encoded USS. I have no Arsenic atm the moment but I'm sure I'll get some when I go do some mining for a permit later. I already restocked my CMs from Combat Aftermath, I stopped picking them up when I hit 30.

Now, if you want the rest of the G5s you will have to do a variety of things in the game. But you can definitely do FSDs with little effort.

 

[wrmiller]

Yes, yes you can.



Please, stop talking outta your butts. You obviously do not know of what you're speaking.

Chemical Manipulators are common in Combat Aftermath USS. No murder required.
Datamined Wake Exceptions will also turn up in Private Data beacons in Encoded USS (which will also sometimes drop CMs).
Arsenic is common on planets (OK, you may have to search for that one but if you're on the ground for any reason you might as well go looking).

I have 30 CMs in my mats, I haven't killed a trade ship in ages. If I'm short of them I just drop into combat aftermath when I see them. The last 15 DWE I got just from dropping into Encoded USS, I do that if I have space left in my data storage. I already had Arsenic from previous planetary trips. Without looking for mats I was able to get a brand new gunship to 54%+ FSD, and as a bonus added +3% to the python with the remaining rolls.

This is 100% actual game experience, unlike whatever you're brewing up in your imaginations.

Oh, since then I already picked up another 3 DWE from a Encoded USS. I have no Arsenic atm the moment but I'm sure I'll get some when I go do some mining for a permit later. I already restocked my CMs from Combat Aftermath, I stopped picking them up when I hit 30.

Now, if you want the rest of the G5s you will have to do a variety of things in the game. But you can definitely do FSDs with little effort.

English comprehension isn't your strong suit is it? I said I do missions. Isn't that plain enough even for you to understand?

I don't go to USS sites after visiting a couple that were simply traps.

I don't do mining.

I've never seen ships shooting at each other outside of RES sites.

Three strikes...you're out.

 

[m0rl0ck]

ed.
Datamined Wake Exceptions will also turn up in Private Data beacons in Encoded USS (which will also sometimes drop CMs).

Those were my personal breaking point with engineers. I was in a python with modded mc's, shields, iirc fsd and maybe thrusters too. Every time i jumped through the stupid hoops FD had set up for engineers upgrades i got more and more ------ off.
Finally after spending 69 minutes (yes i timed it) looking for datamined wake exceptions, when i had seen several not too long before, i had had enough of the engineers.
My thinking was that i could actually be playing the game, or even some other game, and having fun rather than do some stupid grindy fantasy game stupidity to get my ship enchanted by the RNGineers It just amazes me that people put up with it.

 

[wrmiller]

It just amazes me that people put up with it.

Virtual rep!

Nothing people do amazes me anymore.

 

[Zeeman]

Yes, yes you can.



Please, stop talking outta your butts. You obviously do not know of what you're speaking.

Chemical Manipulators are common in Combat Aftermath USS. No murder required.
Datamined Wake Exceptions will also turn up in Private Data beacons in Encoded USS (which will also sometimes drop CMs).
Arsenic is common on planets (OK, you may have to search for that one but if you're on the ground for any reason you might as well go looking).

I have 30 CMs in my mats, I haven't killed a trade ship in ages. If I'm short of them I just drop into combat aftermath when I see them. The last 15 DWE I got just from dropping into Encoded USS, I do that if I have space left in my data storage. I already had Arsenic from previous planetary trips. Without looking for mats I was able to get a brand new gunship to 54%+ FSD, and as a bonus added +3% to the python with the remaining rolls.

This is 100% actual game experience, unlike whatever you're brewing up in your imaginations.

Oh, since then I already picked up another 3 DWE from a Encoded USS. I have no Arsenic atm the moment but I'm sure I'll get some when I go do some mining for a permit later. I already restocked my CMs from Combat Aftermath, I stopped picking them up when I hit 30.

Now, if you want the rest of the G5s you will have to do a variety of things in the game. But you can definitely do FSDs with little effort.

You know what? The point is being missed. It's the final roll - the fact you have to bet it all on a pull of the one armed bandit that is the insulting part. the fact that one lucky person will get a 55% range boost roll on his FSD, whilst most of us can throw that dice 200 times and still not even get close.

And yes, of course we damn well want to get a max roll - why does someone else get it and we can't - we did the same work. It's a game,I want to be rewarded for my efforts the same way as anyone else is. Why is my 10 hrs (based on pervious posts), worth less FSD range than someone else's? Why is someone else's 10hours worth less than mine?

I don't mind variation, but either make the variation small (like, say, 50%-55%, instead of 35-55%), or, give us player adjustable sliders that we can adjust to the requirements of each individual build.Sliding the blue slider up moves the read sliders down proportionally. It's fair, rewards effort, and you would, actually, still get variation in builds - in fact, it could be very interesting to have to work out power use, mass and so forth to work in with your other mods. I'd expect mistakes to be made fine tuning, but *that* would actually be interesting, even fun...

People enjoy tuning, improving and adding go fast stripes. In the real world, people do research, spend time and make an effort to get the right parts to achieve a desired result. they don't spend hours and hours (days/weeks?) working (lets compare this to finding mats), only to throw money at a store picked by a dice roll and then purchasing a part also picked by dice roll.

Min/maxing is real, yes - because a large number of humans are competitive. Don't argue against it - if you do, you're arguing against sports, business, academics - everything. Just about everything we do is is to make something/do something better. Heck, look at all the cooking shows now that don't show you how to cook, but get cooks to try and make the best meal in a certain time limit, against other cooks.

Of course, I'd also like to point out that life, actually, is all about turning money into noise, but I digress...

Point is, *of course* there are going to be min/maxers, that would probably be the majority of players. Most people are happy to work for it - I know I am. Make it harder if they must, I'll farm even more materials. You know what? Why not give us an option:

Hey - you can spend 1 of X, one of Y and one of Z for a random roll as now, OR...

How about handing over 50 of X, 50 of Y and 50 of Z for a *guaranteed* top roll? I'd actually willingly play into that. At least I know what I need to do to achieve what I am actually after, rather than constantly peeing my time up a wall...

Z...

 

[xondk]

The RNG is absolutely stupid, wasting some rolls on all negative effects, how immersive and realistic is that?

Ever tried to modify something beyond its original intend without following a set guide, that is basically what engineers are doing, and it seems represented quite fine. You don't always get what you want? so is it stupid? if it is meant to represent that? or is it simply people are a bit too eager to wanting 'the best' and getting annoyed when they don't get the perfect rolls?

 

[metatheurgist]

English comprehension isn't your strong suit is it? I said I do missions. Isn't that plain enough even for you to understand?

I don't go to USS sites after visiting a couple that were simply traps.

I don't do mining.

I've never seen ships shooting at each other outside of RES sites.

Three strikes...you're out.

Again, you're proudly displaying your ignorance of your game. Combat Aftermath USS and Encoded USS are never traps. There are no ships attacking each other in them, it's just free materials floating in space for you to get. If you're doing missions you're flying all over the place and you will see heaps of them. If you choose not to drop in occasionally and get free materials, that's not the games fault. Not doing mining is fine, it's one of the worst ways of getting mats, I was just saying that it's one of the ways I get mats just by playing the game and not grinding. Many missions take you planet side, again, if you're not diverting a bit just to check out meteorites which are again, free mats lying on the ground that you don't even have to work for, that's all you.

Finally after spending 69 minutes (yes i timed it) looking for datamined wake exceptions, when i had seen several not too long before, i had had enough of the engineers.
My thinking was that i could actually be playing the game, or even some other game, and having fun rather than do some stupid grindy fantasy game stupidity to get my ship enchanted by the RNGineers It just amazes me that people put up with it.

Again, I never looked for the DWE I got, I just got them by dropping into Encoded USS, when I see them, as I'm playing the game. No grind required. I got enough to put 50%+ rolls on 2 ships doing that. If you're ignoring those free materials sitting in space, you can't blame the game for that.

You know what? The point is being missed. It's the final roll - the fact you have to bet it all on a pull of the one armed bandit that is the insulting part. the fact that one lucky person will get a 55% range boost roll on his FSD, whilst most of us can throw that dice 200 times and still not even get close.

I totally agree with you, I'm not missing any points. I agree that the range RNG is too wide.

What I was responding to was the erroneous claim that you have to grind to get upgrades. That is patently false, you can get upgrades, not the best in many cases but you will get many just by playing the game normally as long as you take the time to pick up the many freely available mats that are just lying around for anyone to claim.

But some people would rather shake their fist at the sky than see what's plainly before them.

 

[Tryst]

What I was responding to was the erroneous claim that you have to grind to get upgrades. That is patently false, you can get upgrades, not the best in many cases but you will get many just by playing the game normally as long as you take the time to pick up the many freely available mats that are just lying around for anyone to claim.

The claim is NOT false by any means. You said a trader can get these things but how often does a trader drop into a USS? The grind is spending hours floating about in SC to find the elusive USS you want. You don't do it while trading with a hold full of valuable cargo. I have been into combat aftermath USS (Threat:0) and got jumped by two pirates who dropped in afterwards demanding my cargo, (a bit dumb since I was flying a Python at the time which was empty and quite capable of making them regret it). Worst of it was, all I got from it was a couple of focus crystals.

You most certainly wouldn't just drop in on a USS during a trade run. Oh, I have 13 million credits worth of commodities in cargo in my hold, I'll just drop into this USS and see what I can find. BOOM! 13 million credits of cargo and a 6 million rebuy down the pan.
The chances of me not having cargo in my ship are extremely slim since I avoid empty runs as much as I can.

As I also stated above, (something you evidently didn't bother to read before posting your misinformation), how often does a trader have a SRV? It takes valuable cargo space and has no practical use for trading. I can't do trade runs in a SRV, why then would I have one on board? Therefore, mats available on a planet are not available to a trader during their normal game play, they have to buy a SRV that they are not going to use at any other time just to spend time running around the surface of a planet doing something other than trading (AKA GRINDING) to get those mats. While they are doing this, they are not trading and making money like they would otherwise. If it comes to that, why would a pirate use a SRV? It has only 2 tons of cargo space, not enough to make piracy in it anywhere near worthwhile. A bounty hunter MIGHT use a SRV if they really want to try living off the bounty from low income skimmers. Similarly combat pilots wouldn't use a SRV since there's not much worth shooting at on a planet, (certainly no CZ's to go to).

Your whole argument is based on players NOT doing what they want to do and being forced to do things they don't want or even don't like doing. This means it is most certainly NOT their normal game play, (this is what is known in the gaming industry as GRIND - doing something you don't want/like in order to progress). Ergo, 10 hours a week of NORMAL game play is NOT going to get them the mats they need.