Excessive use of the Temperate Biome in the latest two DLC Packs

[sympatrick]

I do appreciate Frontier's incentive to include as many suitable biomes as possible to the new animals they add in contrast to the very limiting biome suitability options we have for the base game animals, but some choices lately have been really out of place.

I am talking about the Colombian white-faced capuchin monkey, Cuvier's dwarf caiman and Malayan tapir. All three species live thousands of kilometres away from the nearest temperate forest, therefore it makes no sense for them to have the temperate biome in the game. Some people might argue that animals don't really care where a plant comes from as long as it provides coverage, but then what's the point of having such a mechanic in the game?

The same issue exists with the North Sulawesi babirusa. The island they are from has no grasslands or savannahs. It's an island covered entirely by tropical rainforest.

I kindly ask the developers to remove these irrelevant biomes from said animals for a more immersive experience, as well as to maintain the game's educational purpose. You would be surprised to see how seriously some people take the information in the game.

With my best regards,
Patrick

 

[DrBurrito]

I do appreciate Frontier's incentive to include as many suitable biomes as possible to the new animals they add in contrast to the very limiting biome suitability options we have for the base game animals, but some choices lately have been really out of place.

I am talking about the Colombian white-faced capuchin monkey, Cuvier's dwarf caiman and Malayan tapir. All three species live thousands of kilometres away from the nearest temperate forest, therefore it makes no sense for them to have the temperate biome in the game. Some people might argue that animals don't really care where a plant comes from as long as it provides coverage, but then what's the point of having such a mechanic in the game?

The same issue exists with the North Sulawesi babirusa. The island they are from has no grasslands or savannahs. It's an island covered entirely by tropical rainforest.

I kindly ask the developers to remove these irrelevant biomes from said animals for a more immersive experience, as well as to maintain the game's educational purpose. You would be surprised to see how seriously some people take the information in the game.

With my best regards,
Patrick

Good point, but I'd add the Arctic Wolf and Giant Burrowing Cockroach to this list. There are quite a number of animals that require additional biome tags in the game, but only 6 animals (4 of which you've mentioned) have irrelevant biome tags. Here's the additional two:

• Giant Burrowing Cockroach is endemic to the tropical rainforests of Northeastern Australia, therefore the 'Temperate' tag should be replaced with the 'Tropical' tag.
• Arctic Wolves do not occur in the 'Taiga', in fact their distribution lies entirely north of the treeline by a substantial margin.

The relevant sources can be found on @Ursidae's list. Also a very nice thread for additional biome recommendations for quite a number of animals.

 

[iloveyourzoos]

I understand the desire for accuracy and educational value. But personally (and speaking only for myself), I really hope that they don't take away any biome tags that are already in the game, because players have relied on this information to build their existing habitats across multiple zoos. Imagine the outcries when suddenly thousands of players start having animal welfare problems if a change like this happened -- all because they followed the rules and built their habitats the way PZ said they should!

I'm fully in favor of adding biomes that are missing, since this allows for more options in the game. And also typically agree with a lot of the other suggestions for reducing space, opening up social, etc. But the game has enough problems with broken habitats due to various pathing/climbing/diving/hitbox/gate bugs, that I don't feel like we should be breaking people's habitats on purpose.

 

[DrBurrito]

I understand the desire for accuracy and educational value. But personally (and speaking only for myself), I really hope that they don't take away any biome tags that are already in the game, because players have relied on this information to build their existing habitats across multiple zoos. Imagine the outcries when suddenly thousands of players start having animal welfare problems if a change like this happened -- all because they followed the rules and built their habitats the way PZ said they should!

I'm fully in favor of adding biomes that are missing, since this allows for more options in the game. And also typically agree with a lot of the other suggestions for reducing space, opening up social, etc. But the game has enough problems with broken habitats due to various pathing/climbing/diving/hitbox/gate bugs, that I don't feel like we should be breaking people's habitats on purpose.

I don't think there would be any complaints, as this change would only result in a welfare drop of 3-5% at most even if the entire habitat was decorated only with plants from the removed biome. Sometimes I do even use plants in my habitats that are not "suitable" for said animal and it doesn't cause any problems. Plus such changes have always been implemented in various points in time starting from launch till the last patch (or the one before), in which certain tundra plants were no longer suitable for the King Penguin (which was a continent change actually - has an even bigger effect on welfare). Other changes in the past included various animals and plants. And we never received major complaints for any of those changes, so I believe the same would apply here as well, since it won't have a major effect on existing habitats, unlike a space requirement change for instance, where we saw a reduction in the land space for the Jaguar when adding water requirements, so existing habitats wouldn't be adversely affected.

Taking all this information into consideration, I think the pros heavily outweigh any minor cons (if we can even call it that), if the few inaccuracies were corrected. The game's educational role outweighs a 3% change in welfare for some of the existing habitats, plus it would be in line with what Frontier has been doing till now.

 

[Firestar97]

I understand the desire for accuracy and educational value. But personally (and speaking only for myself), I really hope that they don't take away any biome tags that are already in the game, because players have relied on this information to build their existing habitats across multiple zoos. Imagine the outcries when suddenly thousands of players start having animal welfare problems if a change like this happened -- all because they followed the rules and built their habitats the way PZ said they should!

I do almost always use temperate Plants in Outdoor Enclosures and in my Desert Zoo I keep Jaguars, Pronghorns, Bisons and Grizzly Bears in Desert Enclosures without any Problems. Normally you can still reach 97-99% Welfare if everything else is suitable

 

[DrBurrito]

I don't think there would be any complaints, as this change would only result in a welfare drop of 3-5% at most even if the entire habitat was decorated only with plants from the removed biome.

I do almost always use temperate Plants in Outdoor Enclosures and in my Desert Zoo I keep Jaguars, Pronghorns, Bisons and Grizzly Bears in Desert Enclosures without any Problems. Normally you can still reach 97-99% Welfare if everything else is suitable

Just made a quick test, and turns out that my earlier prediction of a 3-5% drop in overall welfare is an overestimate. Could only reach a 2% drop with maximum coverage and biome unsuitability. Even lower than what I had previously expected.

 

[Firestar97]

Just made a quick test, and turns out that my earlier prediction of a 3-5% drop in overall welfare is an overestimate. Could only reach a 2% drop with maximum coverage and biome unsuitability. Even lower than what I had previously expected.

View attachment 226490
View attachment 226491

Interesting. Didn't expect it to still be that high after using way too many Plants

 

[sympatrick]

Good point, but I'd add the Arctic Wolf and Giant Burrowing Cockroach to this list. There are quite a number of animals that require additional biome tags in the game, but only 6 animals (4 of which you've mentioned) have irrelevant biome tags. Here's the additional two:

• Giant Burrowing Cockroach is endemic to the tropical rainforests of Northeastern Australia, therefore the 'Temperate' tag should be replaced with the 'Tropical' tag.
• Arctic Wolves do not occur in the 'Taiga', in fact their distribution lies entirely north of the treeline by a substantial margin.

The relevant sources can be found on @Ursidae's list. Also a very nice thread for additional biome recommendations for quite a number of animals.

Yes indeed, but wanted to keep the discussion to the last two packs because of the title I gave to the thread. I definitely agree those two should also be corrected!

Just made a quick test, and turns out that my earlier prediction of a 3-5% drop in overall welfare is an overestimate. Could only reach a 2% drop with maximum coverage and biome unsuitability. Even lower than what I had previously expected.

View attachment 226490
View attachment 226491

Interesting results. Considering people won't be having 100% coverage for an animal that has a range up to 20-30%, the actual negative effect of irrelevant biome plants will be even lower. Guessing it won't be more than 1% in most cases. Now that gameplay concerns are out of question, let's hope they will make the necessary corrections.

 

[Timmychompchomp]

I don’t want to be a jerk or anything, but this request has a very narrow view of world biomes.

In gaming, what you have requested is referred to as abstraction. Take the Malayan Tapir for example. They range up the Malayan peninsula into north central Thailand. They are also found on Sumatra. This range is tropical, yes, and using abstraction, you can roll up all the biome diversity of Thailand into the Tropical biome of Planet Zoo. Reality though, is much different. Malayan tapirs of Thailand live in a different environment than those found on Sumatra. In an attempt to be more education focused, the devs added Temperate to the Malayan tapir to more accurately depict their ability to inhabit various biomes. Thailand is not strictly a traditional rainforest. Adding the temperate tag to the tapir is another form of abstraction. Since planet zoo has limited biomes to select from, the dev team selected their broad based temperate biome to represent the dryer broad-leafed deciduous forests of a place like Thailand.

I consider the addition of the temperate biome to be prudent based on the tapirs current range and more importantly their historical range, which, as a conservation focused game, would be the end goal of a successful reintroduction initiative.

 

[iloveyourzoos]

Great to see the results of these tests.

Not sure it completely dismisses the gameplay concerns, since every percentage point counts if you're playing certain modes and difficulty levels. And everyone's mileage will vary about how happy they keep their animals to begin with, and whether they want to lose those few percentage points on something like retroactive foliage redistributions compared to everything else they may be considering (space, food quality, stress, enrichment, etc.)

But at least it limits the concern to those who are most concerned about accurate education, and those who are most concerned about maintaining a specific welfare limit -- and keeps the vast majority of players out of harm's way!

 

[Ursidae]

I do appreciate Frontier's incentive to include as many suitable biomes as possible to the new animals they add in contrast to the very limiting biome suitability options we have for the base game animals, but some choices lately have been really out of place.

I am talking about the Colombian white-faced capuchin monkey, Cuvier's dwarf caiman and Malayan tapir. All three species live thousands of kilometres away from the nearest temperate forest, therefore it makes no sense for them to have the temperate biome in the game. Some people might argue that animals don't really care where a plant comes from as long as it provides coverage, but then what's the point of having such a mechanic in the game?

The same issue exists with the North Sulawesi babirusa. The island they are from has no grasslands or savannahs. It's an island covered entirely by tropical rainforest.

I kindly ask the developers to remove these irrelevant biomes from said animals for a more immersive experience, as well as to maintain the game's educational purpose. You would be surprised to see how seriously some people take the information in the game.

With my best regards,
Patrick

Temperate biome for the binturong, clouded leopard and sun bear makes a lot of sense, as they range all the way up north to the edge of the Tibetan Plateau, but like you said the Malayan tapir shouldn't have been included in this bunch. The Malayan peninsula is as tropical as it can get. Same with the capuchin and dwarf caiman, as their range is nowhere close to any temperate region. Here are the relevant sections from my thread:

Malayan Tapir: Removal of Temperate. They are restricted to the tropical rainforests of the Malay Peninsula and Sumatra, which is as tropical as it can get. They don't experience a temperate climate at all, unlike some other Southeast Asian animals (e.g. Clouded leopard).
1) https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Tapirus_indicus/
"Habitat Regions: tropical; terrestrial, Terrestrial Biomes: forest; rainforest......Malayan tapirs are forest dwellers that inhabit tropical terrestrial habitats"
2) https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/21472/45173636
"T. indicus is restricted to tropical moist forest areas and occurs in both primary and secondary forest and wetland areas."

Colombian White-Faced Capuchin: Central instead of North America and Grasslands instead of Temperate. The Panamanian and Colombian white-faced capuchins used to be classified as two subspecies under the same species, now they are different species altogether. But even according to both types of classification the Colombian white-faced capuchin is absent from North America. The blue section on the map is for the Panamanian species. Therefore should only have the South/Central America tag.
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_white-faced_capuchin
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panamanian_white-faced_capuchin
3) https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/81257277/17938441
"2.2. Savanna - Moist - Suitable"

Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman: Removal of Temperate. They only inhabit lowland tropical rainforests and riparian gallery forests in savanna/grassland lowland ecosystems of equatorial South America, therefore do not experience any climate outside tropical.
1) https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Paleosuchus_palpebrosus/
"Habitat Regions: tropical; terrestrial; freshwater"
2) https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/46587/3009946
"Upper Elevation Limit: 500 metres"

Arctic Wolf: Removal of Taiga. Their entire range lies north of the treeline, therefore should be removed. They should also have better long grass suitability, as grasses, lichen and moss are the dominant flora in the tundra.
1) http://animalia.bio/arctic-wolf
"They spend their life in the Arctic tundra, higher than the northern tree line."
2) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/North_American_gray_wolf_subspecies_distribution_according_to_Goldman_(1944)_&_MSW3_(2005).png
3) https://ecoregions2017.appspot.com/

North Sulawesi Babirusa: Removal of Grasslands. They are endemic to the island of Sulawesi, where the only available biome is tropical rainforest. Grasslands suitability isn't even marginal for the babirusa.
1) https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/136446/44142964
"System: Terrestrial, Freshwater (=Inland waters); Habitat Type: Forest, Wetlands (inland).....The Sulawesi Babirusa inhabits tropical rain forest on the banks of rivers and ponds abounding in water plants."
2) https://ecoregions2017.appspot.com/
As seen here, the only available habitat/biome type in Sulawesi is tropical rainforest.

 

[Ursidae]

Good point, but I'd add the Arctic Wolf and Giant Burrowing Cockroach to this list. There are quite a number of animals that require additional biome tags in the game, but only 6 animals (4 of which you've mentioned) have irrelevant biome tags. Here's the additional two:

• Giant Burrowing Cockroach is endemic to the tropical rainforests of Northeastern Australia, therefore the 'Temperate' tag should be replaced with the 'Tropical' tag.
• Arctic Wolves do not occur in the 'Taiga', in fact their distribution lies entirely north of the treeline by a substantial margin.

The relevant sources can be found on @Ursidae's list. Also a very nice thread for additional biome recommendations for quite a number of animals.

I would include the llama as the 7th animal, since they are not found in lowland grasslands or savannas. In terms of grass dominated landscapes, they are only associated with the alpine grasslands of the Andes, the same category as the Himalayan and Tibetan alpine grasslands, both of which are alpine tundra regions. Assigning llamas the grassland biome is the same as assigning grasslands to the snow leopard or Himalayan brown bear.

Imagine the outcries when suddenly thousands of players start having animal welfare problems if a change like this happened.

I don't think it would cause any problems. They have already removed a bunch of biome and continent tags from animals, as well as from some plant assets and it never caused any issues for the community as far as I can remember. Here are some of the biomes that were removed from certain animals:

1. Taiga was removed from the Formosan black bear and then added back again.
2. Grassland was removed from the giant burrowing cockroach.
3. Tropical was removed from the African elephant, but in reality it shouldn't have been. I have asked them to include it back again on my thread.
4. Temperate biome was removed from the Aldabra giant tortoise, Amazonian giant centipede, Giant tiger land snail, green iguana and Lesser Antillean iguana. As you can see there has always been a confusion about temperate forests and tropical animals. Therefore they should just follow suit and fix the recently added tropical DLC animals.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRm-RXSWgY8

Thailand is not strictly a traditional rainforest. Adding the temperate tag to the tapir is another form of abstraction. Since planet zoo has limited biomes to select from, the dev team selected their broad based temperate biome to represent the dryer broad-leafed deciduous forests of a place like Thailand.

I think what you mean is the grassland tag, instead of temperate. Tropical dry forests in the game are lumped under the grassland biome, as seen with the game's map and biome tags for animals and plants. The divide between temperate and tropical on the other hand depends on temperature, not precipitation. The closest temperate forests are in Central China and the Himalayas, both of which are several thousand miles away from the range of the Malayan tapir.

I wouldn't be super annoyed if they were to replace temperate with grassland, instead of removing it entirely, as Malayan tapirs do make use of forest edges and clearings, but still too marginal in my opinion. If we were to include such marginal examples, it would change the way biomes are assigned to the rest of the animals.

After all this is what the IUCN Red List has to say about seasonal forests and Malayan tapirs:
"T. indicus is restricted to tropical moist forest areas and occurs in both primary and secondary forest and wetland areas. The more seasonal climate in northern Myanmar, northern (= most of non-peninsula) Thailand, Lao PDR, Viet Nam and Cambodia and the harsher dry season of the forest (even in evergreen areas, excepting the eastern flanks and adjacent Vietnamese lowlands of the Annamite chain) there is likely to be the main reason this species is not found there."

The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species

Established in 1964, the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species has evolved to become the world’s most comprehensive information source on the global conservation status of animal, fungi and plant species.

www.iucnredlist.org

 

[Firestar97]

Tropical was removed from the African elephant, but in reality it shouldn't have been. I have asked them to include it back again on my thread.

Why? The African Bush Elephant lives in many Biomes which also include Rainforests and Swamps.
I assume 2 different People worked on it and the second one deleted it without checking Facts

 

[macronecu]

Temperate biome was removed from the Aldabra giant tortoise, Amazonian giant centipede, Giant tiger land snail, green iguana and Lesser Antillean iguana. As you can see there has always been a confusion about temperate forests and tropical animals. Therefore they should just follow suit and fix the recently added tropical DLC animals.

In an attempt to be more education focused, the devs added Temperate to the Malayan tapir to more accurately depict their ability to inhabit various biomes.

I think you are giving too much credit to a "typo". Devs are people and can make simple mistakes like the rest of us. Did you know that sun bear's educational board has aquatic? Not all actions are intentional decisions, and all those temperate biomes already removed clearly shows this wasn't intentional as well. You speak with 100% certainty as if you were on the dev team at the time and know why it was added.

 

[sympatrick]

In gaming, what you have requested is referred to as abstraction. Take the Malayan Tapir for example. They range up the Malayan peninsula into north central Thailand. They are also found on Sumatra. This range is tropical, yes, and using abstraction, you can roll up all the biome diversity of Thailand into the Tropical biome of Planet Zoo. Reality though, is much different. Malayan tapirs of Thailand live in a different environment than those found on Sumatra. In an attempt to be more education focused, the devs added Temperate to the Malayan tapir to more accurately depict their ability to inhabit various biomes. Thailand is not strictly a traditional rainforest. Adding the temperate tag to the tapir is another form of abstraction. Since planet zoo has limited biomes to select from, the dev team selected their broad based temperate biome to represent the dryer broad-leafed deciduous forests of a place like Thailand.

What you said would have been correct if the biome we are discussing was grasslands. No other animal or plant in the game has the temperate biome in place of tropical dry forests. I agree with Ursidae that the Malayan tapir has suffered from the same simple error as all those other tropical animals have in the past. For consistency sake they should just fix the Malayan tapir, capuchin and caiman by removing temperate or swapping it with grassland. Otherwise it wouldn't be consistent with the rest.

 

[DrBurrito]

Since planet zoo has limited biomes to select from, the dev team selected their broad based temperate biome to represent the dryer broad-leafed deciduous forests of a place like Thailand.

In fact those tropical deciduous forests you are talking about are classified as tropical & subtropical moist broadleaf forests, not dry. For this reason, even according to the game's own method of classifying biomes, the entirety of Malayan Tapir's range would fall under the 'Tropical' category, not even 'Grassland' as they are absent from true dry forests. If we were to add 'Grassland' to the Malayan Tapir, that would require many animals in the game to have most available biomes added, which would change the way biomes are handled in the game entirely, for the entire roster. So anything marginal, like dry forests for the Malayan tapir, should be excluded.

As you can see in the following screenshots, seasonal deciduous or semi-evergreen forests are still classified as "moist", since they aren't dry enough to be "dry forests", yet they still can't be called rainforest as the annual precipitation is below the threshold for them to be considered true rainforests. However they are all "tropical/subtropical moist forests" in the broad sense, and classified as such, with separate sub-categories like rainforest, moist forest, semi-evergreen and seasonal deciduous forest. Same applies to dry forests with semi-dry and dry variants. In our case all of the ecoregions the Malayan Tapirs range in are classified as "Tropical & Subtropical Moist" forest, which correspond to the 'Tropical' biome in the game.

Here are some examples from the region:

And here's the link to the source:

Ecoregions 2017 ©

The Temperate-Tropical divide is another thing entirely, depends on annual temperature and seasonal variation in temperature. You can have tropical, subtropical or temperate rainforests. The term rainforest doesn't necessarily mean tropical. A temperate rainforest would fall under the 'Temperate' umbrella biome in the game, or 'Taiga' if it is dominated by coniferous plants (e.g. Pacific Northwest). Whereas the difference between rainforests and seasonal forests depend on precipitation, not temperature. Therefore 'Temperate' biome has no place in this discussion whatsoever, even if you advocate for the addition of the marginal 'Grassland' biome to represent tropical dry forests.

1. Temperate biome was removed from the Aldabra giant tortoise, Amazonian giant centipede, Giant tiger land snail, green iguana and Lesser Antillean iguana. As you can see there has always been a confusion about temperate forests and tropical animals. Therefore they should just follow suit and fix the recently added tropical DLC animals.

I think I have found the root of the problem - what caused this whole temperate-tropical forest confusion for tropical animals in the first place. Many sources like seen here will list "forest" and "rainforest" separately to distinguish between the amount of annual precipitation between the two types of moist forest. I believe this distinction is the cause of the confusion that lead to the addition of 'Temperate' to so many tropical animals, which were later removed, without the need of any feedback from the users. For it to be consistent, they'd have to do the same for the Malayan Tapir, Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman and Colombian White-Faced Capuchin.

Tapirus indicus (Malayan tapir)

animaldiversity.org

Paleosuchus palpebrosus (Dwarf caiman, Cuvier's smooth-fronted caiman)

animaldiversity.org

Cebus capucinus (white-faced capuchin)

animaldiversity.org

As you can see, there's the exact same classification for the tropical animals that had their 'Temperate' tags removed:

Iguana iguana (Common Green Iguana)

animaldiversity.org

 

[Timmychompchomp]

I can only say this, I am in no way confused about temperate, tropical, or grassland biomes in the real world.

what I am saying is this; labels are just that, labels. Maps are only maps. They are always inaccurate. They are human tools, not laws of nature. Look at it this way; you cannot define a coastline in hard numbers and you can find website after website, book after book that does. These are only approximations and can only ever be approximation. You all sound as if you want to bottle the entire ocean to definitively define it’s volume, but aren’t stopping to think about the destruction you will cause. Biomes in Planet Zoo are only approximations and are inherently and will always be, flawed. Just like every globe, book, website and professor who tells you the coastline of this landmass is x. It’s not useless information, but it is also a trap. How can a video game be held to this level of scrutiny? It cannot and it is massively misplaced and unfair to do so.

Based on everything posted in response, I stick to my original statement; the inclusion of temperate in regards to the Malayan tapir is prudent, based on the game’s extremely simple and limited representation of biomes. The word temperate has very little meaning in this context. I look at how it is represented visually, regardless of labels. (Remember, a video game is visual media) and I find that, based on what is provided, a mix of tropical and temperate biomes to be the best representation of the Malayan Tapirs range, both currently and historically.

I also find it interesting that all of the references made in response very easily and without much insight, support both Tropical and Temperate biomes within Planet Zoo.

 

[Timmychompchomp]

In fact those tropical deciduous forests you are talking about are classified as tropical & subtropical moist broadleaf forests, not dry. For this reason, even according to the game's own method of classifying biomes, the entirety of Malayan Tapir's range would fall under the 'Tropical' category, not even 'Grassland' as they are absent from true dry forests. If we were to add 'Grassland' to the Malayan Tapir, that would require many animals in the game to have most available biomes added, which would change the way biomes are handled in the game entirely, for the entire roster. So anything marginal, like dry forests for the Malayan tapir, should be excluded.

As you can see in the following screenshots, seasonal deciduous or semi-evergreen forests are still classified as "moist", since they aren't dry enough to be "dry forests", yet they still can't be called rainforest as the annual precipitation is below the threshold for them to be considered true rainforests. However they are all "tropical/subtropical moist forests" in the broad sense, and classified as such, with separate sub-categories like rainforest, moist forest, semi-evergreen and seasonal deciduous forest. Same applies to dry forests with semi-dry and dry variants. In our case all of the ecoregions the Malayan Tapirs range in are classified as "Tropical & Subtropical Moist" forest, which correspond to the 'Tropical' biome in the game.

Here are some examples from the region:
View attachment 226710View attachment 226711View attachment 226712View attachment 226713View attachment 226714

And here's the link to the source:

Ecoregions 2017 ©

The Temperate-Tropical divide is another thing entirely, depends on annual temperature and seasonal variation in temperature. You can have tropical, subtropical or temperate rainforests. The term rainforest doesn't necessarily mean tropical. A temperate rainforest would fall under the 'Temperate' umbrella biome in the game, or 'Taiga' if it is dominated by coniferous plants (e.g. Pacific Northwest). Whereas the difference between rainforests and seasonal forests depend on precipitation, not temperature. Therefore 'Temperate' biome has no place in this discussion whatsoever, even if you advocate for the addition of the marginal 'Grassland' biome to represent tropical dry forests.


I think I have found the root of the problem - what caused this whole temperate-tropical forest confusion for tropical animals in the first place. Many sources like seen here will list "forest" and "rainforest" separately to distinguish between the amount of annual precipitation between the two types of moist forest. I believe this distinction is the cause of the confusion that lead to the addition of 'Temperate' to so many tropical animals, which were later removed, without the need of any feedback from the users. For it to be consistent, they'd have to do the same for the Malayan Tapir, Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman and Colombian White-Faced Capuchin.

Tapirus indicus (Malayan tapir)

animaldiversity.org

View attachment 226715

Paleosuchus palpebrosus (Dwarf caiman, Cuvier's smooth-fronted caiman)

animaldiversity.org

View attachment 226716

Cebus capucinus (white-faced capuchin)

animaldiversity.org

View attachment 226717

As you can see, there's the exact same classification for the tropical animals that had their 'Temperate' tags removed:

Iguana iguana (Common Green Iguana)

animaldiversity.org

View attachment 226718

What you don’t seem to realize is this. I don’t say this to be mean, but to be honest and hopefully give you insight. Removing a tag from the iguana was done to satisfy the few, most probably with a major eye roll. It gets one from me. An animal in a glass box in a video game?
Also, removing a tag from one animal has nothing to do with removing one from another. It is illogical to argue it has any relevancy other than to loosely support your desired outcome. Every animal is unique unto itself.

 

[Timmychompchomp]

Another small thing. Temperature/climate in the game is represented by the map and weather associated with the map. The biome is relevant to foliage and cost to house with coolers and heaters. The tag system is primarily relevant and only strictly enforced in the selection and placement of foliage.

 

[Ursidae]

What you don’t seem to realize is this. I don’t say this to be mean, but to be honest and hopefully give you insight. Removing a tag from the iguana was done to satisfy the few, most probably with a major eye roll. It gets one from me. An animal in a glass box in a video game?

As mentioned earlier in the discussion, non of those 6 animals had their biomes changed after player feedback. The developers realized the inconsistency with the tagging and changed it themselves. So our discussion is a follow up of their own decision to make DLC animals consistent with the base game roster.

At this point you are either twisting words on purpose or not following the discussion properly:
1) It was 6 tropical animals from the base game, not 1, including one habitat animal, which had their temperate biome tags removed.
2) A total of 3 habitat animals were mentioned in the discussion which had at least one biome tag removed.

So unlike your claim, the discussion isn't about one animal "in a glass box". You simply want the Malayan tapir to be an exception to the rule that removed the temperate biome from a total of 6 base game animals. Currently there's no tropical animal in the game other than these three recently added DLC animals to continue having the temperate biome tag, unless their range extends into the temperate regions of the Nearctic or Palearctic realms like the Bengal tiger, Indian rhino, Indian Elephant or Baird's tapir. For instance the clouded leopard, sun bear and binturong fall into this category and makes total sense why they have temperate biome tags. In contrast, simply looking at their distribution maps on the Zoopedia will tell you why the Malayan tapir, capuchin and dwarf caiman should receive the same treatment as those 6 animals that had their temperate tags removed. If treated differently, that'd be an exception to the rule and would damage consistency.

If you don't want consistent habitat requirements, that's fine, but just openly say that instead of trying to ridicule logical arguments based completely on properly sourced material.

Another small thing. Temperature/climate in the game is represented by the map and weather associated with the map. The biome is relevant to foliage and cost to house with coolers and heaters. The tag system is primarily relevant and only strictly enforced in the selection and placement of foliage.

The problem with your logic is, non of the temperate biome plants in the game that are from Asia are plants that are representative of the monsoonal tropical forests in Thailand. They are either Siberian, Himalayan or Northeast Asian trees and plants. So the temperate tag does not apply to the Malayan tapir in any sense of the word.

On top of that, you are wrong that those tags do not affect the climate or temperature requirements. In the game, suitable temperatures are determined by the very tags the animals have. Normally a gorilla wouldn't have 100% welfare in a 42 degree Celsius environment, but they have their temperature requirements determined based on the tags they have. The developers even lowered suitable temperatures for a few animals that were not happy on the very maps they were "supposed to be comfortable in".

But you are right, even the plant suitability is enough a reason by itself, and in this case non of the temperate Asian plants in the game apply to the range of the Malayan tapir.