Excessive use of the Temperate Biome in the latest two DLC Packs

The biggest problem, I think, with leaving wrong biome tags is that it also affects the temperature range the animals are given. For instance, Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman had a perfectly suitable temperature range before, but they did update its lower limit just so that they don't get low welfare on the temperate map. Right now we have caiman that are perfectly happy at temperatures as low as 3-4 Celsius. In terms of the game's educational value, this is very misleading. Therefore I do support 100% that the remaining few overlooked tags should be fixed, regardless of its implications.

I had tried to bring this to the attention of the developers in context of the Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman particularly, since I do specialize in reptiles. However this thread is much more comprehensive as it has a greater scope that involves several other animals with the same issue. I had argued that, giving Cuvier's Dwarf Caimans such a low temperature suitability would even cause real life implications, as they are a popular species in the pet trade. I think it is a big responsibility as it concerns the welfare of real animals at this point.
This should really be fixed. Didn't notice it yet because I keep the Species in only one Zoo. How did they think it was a good Idea?
There are lots of Animals that need to get more realistic Temperature Requirements (Bactrian Camel, American Bison......)


"Rainforest: rainforests, both temperate and tropical, are dominated by trees often forming a closed canopy with little light reaching the ground. Epiphytes and climbing plants are also abundant. Precipitation is typically not limiting, but may be somewhat seasonal."
Interesting. Didn't know this. Would've expected Epiphytes and climbing Plants to grow in Rainforests
 
Do we have a count of how many biome tags have been permanently removed from habitat animals during the full release, such that existing habitat coverage calculations changed on players unknowingly mid-game? (or only knowing about it by reading the update notes).

Those would be the only ones that could potentially impact players' existing zoos, and the source of the concern. Bringing evidence from the closed beta, or exhibit animals, or additions/expansions, or changes to fix other things like zoopedia/education boards without a change to the actual functional biome tags is all interesting and valuable..... but may also miss an important part of the equation. If Frontier is indeed considering playability mechanics in the game, and not merely scientific accuracy as part of their equation, then it becomes much less clear that deleting biomes at this point would really be in keeping with Frontiers "own system".

I've seen three potential examples given, (although I'm not clear when each of these changes were made), and even there the evidence seems a bit too weak to draw a real pattern:
Taiga was removed from the Formosan black bear -- but then added back. Not exactly a strong example since they changed course.
Tropical was removed from the African elephant. But players say it shouldn't have been and want it added back. So again, not exactly a strong example.

That leaves only one potential example of having a habitat animal that had a biome removed (again, I can't tell if this was post-full release, or at some other point):
Temperate was removed from the Aldabera tortoise.

Again, I don't know if playable game mechanics or player reliance are issues that Frontier is considering in their equation. Maybe they care as little about such things as everyone else seems to. I'm just saying that if they are considering it, then sticking with the biome tags that players have relied on could indeed be consistent. Everyone knew that the closed beta wouldn't carry over, and that exhibit animal changes wouldn't have impacted game play. But deleting biome tags from habitat animals -- when players may have built their current zoos in reliance on that information -- really does seem like a potentially different thing.
 
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Do we have a count of how many biome tags have been permanently removed from habitat animals during the full release, such that existing habitat coverage calculations changed on players unknowingly mid-game? (or only knowing about it by reading the update notes).

Those would be the only ones that could potentially impact players' existing zoos, and the source of the concern. Bringing evidence from the closed beta, or exhibit animals, or additions/expansions, or changes to fix other things like zoopedia/education boards without a change to the actual functional biome tags is all interesting and valuable..... but may also miss an important part of the equation. If Frontier is indeed considering playability mechanics in the game, and not merely scientific accuracy as part of their equation, then it becomes much less clear that deleting biomes at this point would really be in keeping with Frontiers "own system".

I've seen three potential examples given, (although I'm not clear when each of these changes were made), and even there the evidence seems a bit too weak to draw a real pattern:
Taiga was removed from the Formosan black bear -- but then added back. Not exactly a strong example since they changed course.
Tropical was removed from the African elephant. But players say it shouldn't have been and want it added back. So again, not exactly a strong example.

That leaves only one potential example of having a habitat animal that had a biome removed (again, I can't tell if this was post-full release, or at some other point):
Temperate was removed from the Aldabera tortoise.

Again, I don't know if playable game mechanics or player reliance are issues that Frontier is considering in their equation. Maybe they care as little about such things as everyone else seems to. I'm just saying that if they are considering it, then sticking with the biome tags that players have relied on could indeed be consistent. Everyone knew that the closed beta wouldn't carry over, and that exhibit animal changes wouldn't have impacted game play. But deleting biome tags from habitat animals -- when players may have built their current zoos in reliance on that information -- really does seem like a potentially different thing.
The 13 or so screens I had shared about the removal of 'Temperate' from strictly tropical animals were not intended to be proof for the changes made to existing habitat biomes after launch. They are proof for the classification method that was abandoned for the one currently in use. They can indeed hesitate to remove temperate biome tags from those remaining 3 animals, but then they would have to live with the fact that their in-game system will be inconsistent.

'Taiga' for the Formosan Black Bear and 'Tropical' for the African Elephant is another topic entirely.
 
The 13 or so screens I had shared about the removal of 'Temperate' from strictly tropical animals were not intended to be proof for the changes made to existing habitat biomes after launch. They are proof for the classification method that was abandoned for the one currently in use. They can indeed hesitate to remove temperate biome tags from those remaining 3 animals, but then they would have to live with the fact that their in-game system will be inconsistent.

'Taiga' for the Formosan Black Bear and 'Tropical' for the African Elephant is another topic entirely.
I really hope they continue with the corrections, because otherwise it won't be consistent at all...
 
Thailand is not strictly a traditional rainforest. Adding the temperate tag to the tapir is another form of abstraction. Since planet zoo has limited biomes to select from, the dev team selected their broad based temperate biome to represent the dryer broad-leafed deciduous forests of a place like Thailand.
Realized I forgot to reply to this comment, when initially I had thought of a response.

If this was true and intended, then a lot of animals from Africa would also have temperate biomes. There is a monsoonal forest belt around the equatorial rainforest belt in Africa, and a lot of animals, even some rainforest animals would then have this tag. Anything from Mandrills to Bongos and Elephants to Hippos would additionally have this tag if your theory was right. In fact they apparently did at some point, according to the screens shared in the previous page, but were then changed to tropical. I see a clear pattern here, that shows temperate biome for deciduous tropical forests is not intended, at least not anymore, as all of them have been changed to tropical. I hope the developers will not shy away from continuing to fix the remaining examples, like the Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman, Capuchin Monkey and Malayan Tapir, otherwise they would not match the base game animals. A game should be consistent with its mechanics. The trade off is just 1-2% welfare, so it's nothing terrible for the players who already have those plants.

I am hopeful after today's announcement on Polar Bears. Caimans having suitability for 3-6 degree Celsius is very worrying for someone who cares about animal welfare like me. The only crocodilian that should be ok with such temperatures is the American and Chinese Alligators. The only way to fix this is to remove temperate biome from them. This way it will be 2 birds with one stone. Animals will have proper temperature suitabilities, and a consistent biome mechanic that applies to all animals equally.

Update: Reticulated Giraffe, Nyala and Cape Buffalo are also good examples to disprove that logic. Non of them live in traditional rainforests, but apparently have the tropical biome to represent the deciduous forests along the coast of East Africa.
 
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Realized I forgot to reply to this comment, when initially I had thought of a response.

If this was true and intended, then a lot of animals from Africa would also have temperate biomes. There is a monsoonal forest belt around the equatorial rainforest belt in Africa, and a lot of animals, even some rainforest animals would then have this tag. Anything from Mandrills to Bongos and Elephants to Hippos would additionally have this tag if your theory was right. In fact they apparently did at some point, according to the screens shared in the previous page, but were then changed to tropical. I see a clear pattern here, that shows temperate biome for deciduous tropical forests is not intended, at least not anymore, as all of them have been changed to tropical. I hope the developers will not shy away from continuing to fix the remaining examples, like the Cuvier's Dwarf Caiman, Capuchin Monkey and Malayan Tapir, otherwise they would not match the base game animals. A game should be consistent with its mechanics. The trade off is just 1-2% welfare, so it's nothing terrible for the players who already have those plants.

I am hopeful after today's announcement on Polar Bears. Caimans having suitability for 3-6 degree Celsius is very worrying for someone who cares about animal welfare like me. The only crocodilian that should be ok with such temperatures is the American and Chinese Alligators. The only way to fix this is to remove temperate biome from them. This way it will be 2 birds with one stone. Animals will have proper temperature suitabilities, and a consistent biome mechanic that applies to all animals equally.

Update: Reticulated Giraffe, Nyala and Cape Buffalo are also good examples to disprove that logic. Non of them live in traditional rainforests, but apparently have the tropical biome to represent the deciduous forests along the coast of East Africa.
It's not only those ones. Here, I'll make a list of all tropical animals in the game that would have had the temperate biome if his theory was right:
1) Aardvark
2) African buffalo
3) African elephant
4) African wild dog
5) Aldabra giant tortoise
6) Amazonian giant centipede
7) Boa constrictor
8) Bongo
9) Brazilian salmon pink tarantula
10) Brazilian wandering spider
11) Common warthog
12) Galapagos giant tortoise
13) Giant anteater
14) Giant forest scorpion
15) Giant otter
16) Giant tiger land snail
17) Goliath beetle
18) Goliath birdeater
19) Green iguana
20) Hippopotamus
21) Komodo dragon
22) Lesser Antillean iguana
23) Mandrill
24) Nile monitor
25) Nyala
26) Pygmy hippopotamus
27) Reticulated giraffe
28) Saltwater crocodile
29) Southern cassowary
30) Spotted hyena
31) Titan beetle
32) Western chimpanzee
33) Yellow anaconda

I don't know if I missed any, but I think these are enough to prove that deciduous tropical forests in the game are not considered to be part of the temperate biome. There is indeed abstraction in the form of tropical dry forests being lumped up with grassland and tropical deciduous forests (monsoonal forests) being lumped up with tropical. Furthermore, we can see this by looking at the aardvark, African buffalo, boa constrictor, common warthog, giant anteater, giant otter, giant tiger land snail, goliath beetle, green iguana, Komodo dragon, Nile monitor, nyala, and reticulated giraffe, all of which have both the tropical and grassland tags at the same time. If tropical monsoonal forests were really classified as temperate, then all of these 13 animals that have both grassland and tropical biomes would also have the temperate biome tag as tropical deciduous forests (monsoonal forests) are the "in-between" biome between tropical rainforests and grasslands, being in the transitional zone. An animal living in both rainforests and savannahs would also be existent in the monsoonal forests between those two habitat regions. This is clear proof the game isn't following the form of abstraction he was claiming. They probably indeed thought about that possibility at some point in the past, as we can see from the screens @DrBurrito shared, but that is no longer the method they are following. The remaining 4 animals (capuchin, Malayan tapir, dwarf caiman, cockroach) are against the pattern all the other 33 animals I've listed above follow.

On the other hand, there are indeed animals in the game from the tropics or subtropics that should keep their temperate biome tag, or taiga in other cases, since their range does extend into temperate broadleaf or coniferous forests. Those animals should keep the tags. Here's the list of those animals:
1) Baird's tapir
2) Bengal tiger
3) Binturong
4) Chinese pangolin
5) Clouded leopard
6) Dhole
7) Eastern blue tongued lizard
8) Eastern brown snake
9) Formosan black bear
10) Gharial
11) Greater flamingo
12) Indian elephant
13) Indian peafowl
14) Indian rhino
15) Jaguar
16) Koala
17) Mexican red knee tarantula
18) Sun bear

And then there are those missing the temperate biome tag, but that isn't the focus of this thread, so I'll leave it at that.
 
I don't know if I missed any, but I think these are enough to prove that deciduous tropical forests in the game are not considered to be part of the temperate biome. There is indeed abstraction in the form of tropical dry forests being lumped up with grassland and tropical deciduous forests (monsoonal forests) being lumped up with tropical.
I can confirm that the front-end globe also includes monsoon forests in the 'Tropical' biome, and dry forests in the 'Grassland' biome (based on the game's source map):

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Any update on this issue? After the two dozen or so fixes to base game animals that used to have the temperate biome tag, newer DLC animals are creating a confusion when decorating regionally themed parks. I would very much appreciate some sort of official response.
I expect them to address DLC animals just like they did base game animals after launch. Almost two dozen animals done, just several animals to go to make it consistent.
 
The 13 or so screens I had shared about the removal of 'Temperate' from strictly tropical animals
The act of removal of temperate tags from 13 tropical region animals looks like a very consistent move by the devs to me. I think it should be applied to the animals added later that were added after those tags have been removed from those 13 animals. I hope devs see this thread. There is some really weird foliage selections for the capuchin monkey, malayan tapir and dwarf caiman. Babirusa's grassland pick is an odd choice as well.
 
I would like to quote myself from another thread, because the same concern applies to this thread as well.

I think it depends on the animal and biome in question. I agree that there are many animals desperately needing more biomes, and adding biomes should be the way to go in most cases, but even then, there are some animals with certain biomes that are completely irrelevant. If those biomes are allowed to stay, that would warrant the addition of almost any biome to any animal, which wouldn't be good for game design. I have read through several of these threads and I what I've noticed is removal of biomes are suggested only when the method of abstraction falls out of pattern with the general trend. For instance take the babirusa, giving it the grasslands biome is equivalent of giving every single rainforest animal the same biome tag. Since that isn't a sound solution, the only way to go is removing grassland from the babirusa. It is so irrelevant that it even makes you think whether it has the tag because its blueprint was copy pasted from the common warthog and they forgot to remove it before adding it to the public branch. In another thread, this kind of oversight was proven with two dozen or so early launch and beta screenshots showing animals having the temperate biome tag, which they don't at the moment. Therefore I think if a biome tag has missed the quality review before hitting the public branch, it shouldn't stay there just because it became public in the first place. However, there are indeed intentional choices of abstraction that are consistent with the rest of the roster, those should stay.

As for animals lacking biome tags, I can probably come up with at least a 50-100 examples, when only 5-6 tags are irrelevant and should be removed, so you are right that animals lacking biomes is a bigger issue. What we can do as a community is discuss whether those 5-6 biome choices are in fact not irrelevant or inconsistent with the rest. If there are solid theories, it can change the course of this argument. As for the African penguin, as far as I can remember, their largest breeding grounds is in the Namib desert, with the rest of mainland colonies being wiped out by leopards. Therefore it does make sense for it to have the desert tag over say grassland, as they can't form permanent colonies in regions with more terrestrial predators. I think this is why they have the desert tag, which makes perfect sense to me. If coastal was the reason, then king penguin would also have it. Although I would love if they also added temperate biome to the African penguin, since this biome would better represent the offshore colonies they have.

To summarize, I am concerned that biomes that were added by mistake will stay because they became public in the first place. If there is any consistent reason for a biome to be added to an animal, that might seem out of place, I am all for it, but I can't see any consistency in the 6 examples being talked about on the forums:
  • Temperate for the capuchin, dwarf caiman, Malayan tapir and burrowing cockroach: As the screenshots show many other tropical animals had the same tag, but only to be removed later. Only relevant choices like the Bengal tiger and Baird's tapir still have the temperate tag, so these 3 DLC animals and the roach seem to be following the outdated system that was in place before the beta.
  • Grasslands for the babirusa: As the OP has explained, there are no grasslands in Sulawesi, totally irrelevant pick that doesn't compare to anything else in the game.
  • Taiga for the Arctic wolf: These wolves live nowhere near the treeline for them to have taiga forest compatibility. Again, can't find another example of this kind of abstraction in the game to disprove its inconsistency.
 
I would like to quote myself from another thread, because the same concern applies to this thread as well.



To summarize, I am concerned that biomes that were added by mistake will stay because they became public in the first place. If there is any consistent reason for a biome to be added to an animal, that might seem out of place, I am all for it, but I can't see any consistency in the 6 examples being talked about on the forums:
  • Temperate for the capuchin, dwarf caiman, Malayan tapir and burrowing cockroach: As the screenshots show many other tropical animals had the same tag, but only to be removed later. Only relevant choices like the Bengal tiger and Baird's tapir still have the temperate tag, so these 3 DLC animals and the roach seem to be following the outdated system that was in place before the beta.
  • Grasslands for the babirusa: As the OP has explained, there are no grasslands in Sulawesi, totally irrelevant pick that doesn't compare to anything else in the game.
  • Taiga for the Arctic wolf: These wolves live nowhere near the treeline for them to have taiga forest compatibility. Again, can't find another example of this kind of abstraction in the game to disprove its inconsistency.
Even if they fix these existing mistakes, I hope new packs won't add new ones, there is always that risk. Let's just hope these threads will get noticed and fixed but also new packs will have the post quality review version of tags we saw in this thread's pictures. If they keep adding with 2019 standards, it will get even more confusing.
 
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