For crying out loud .....even NO MAN'S SKY COULD DO IT AND MAKE IT WORK.
'Experimental' VR branch for Odyssey launch
- Thread starter VR Golgot
- Start date
First of all, thanks to VR Golgot for starting this thread
Second, FDev should know that for anybody who started to play Elite in VR, going back to flat is like .... no
I have 5000h in (and that without having played a single one last 2 years, guess why ...) and I'm a bit confused as to why VR will not do it to Odyssey release
If motion sickness is the issue, explain how can it be worse than driving the SRV, which took me a fair amount of time to get used to
If it is the interaction with the environment, then how can games like NMS do it in such a pretty decent way? Cause I enjoy that one tbh ...
C'mon FDev, we know you're better than that, let us do space legs grind in our headset! Personally I can wait, but won't come back in flat 2D, sorry
Second, FDev should know that for anybody who started to play Elite in VR, going back to flat is like .... no
I have 5000h in (and that without having played a single one last 2 years, guess why ...) and I'm a bit confused as to why VR will not do it to Odyssey release
If motion sickness is the issue, explain how can it be worse than driving the SRV, which took me a fair amount of time to get used to
If it is the interaction with the environment, then how can games like NMS do it in such a pretty decent way? Cause I enjoy that one tbh ...
C'mon FDev, we know you're better than that, let us do space legs grind in our headset! Personally I can wait, but won't come back in flat 2D, sorry
Unofficial mod isn't of any interest to me. People have all kinds of whacky ideas of what's playable when a game is modded for VR.
I'm really annoyed by the small percentage of developers who behave like Frontier: bringing VR then taking it away down the line.
Historically Frontier have a history of some bad decisions initially before rethinking. Examples that spring to mind are their original intention to make each new season a full-priced purchase. More recently was the outrageous cost of buying and running a fleet carrier. I know there are lots of other bad decisions along the way but those are two that spring to mind. So it shouldn't really be that much of a surprise to learn of this latest bad decision.
Here's my theory on how it came about...
Coding team: "Dear David, we don't feel confident in making Odyssey work for VR users AND flat-earthers. We can't get our heads around the options for VR movement (teleport/continuous) versus pancake mode and making it all seamlessly work together. Could we possible hire some higher level VR coding talent? Also we think everyone gets sick in VR unless they use teleport so we don't want all that sick on our hands...
David: "Dear team, thank you for being honest about your concerns and admitting you don't have sufficient VR coding skills to make flat-earth and VR work seamlessly together. I can't afford a higher level VR coder at this time but we can look into this again in a few years time. We will just cancel VR development for Odyssey. If we get any rage/hate from VR users just use one of the following stock replies:
"We don't feel we can do justice to a VR version at this time but we may consider it for the future".
"We haven't decided yet"
"VR has failed to sell in sufficient quantities to justify continued support"
"We love VR as much as you and we will look into the vague possibility of adding support down the line"
I'm really annoyed by the small percentage of developers who behave like Frontier: bringing VR then taking it away down the line.
Historically Frontier have a history of some bad decisions initially before rethinking. Examples that spring to mind are their original intention to make each new season a full-priced purchase. More recently was the outrageous cost of buying and running a fleet carrier. I know there are lots of other bad decisions along the way but those are two that spring to mind. So it shouldn't really be that much of a surprise to learn of this latest bad decision.
Here's my theory on how it came about...
Coding team: "Dear David, we don't feel confident in making Odyssey work for VR users AND flat-earthers. We can't get our heads around the options for VR movement (teleport/continuous) versus pancake mode and making it all seamlessly work together. Could we possible hire some higher level VR coding talent? Also we think everyone gets sick in VR unless they use teleport so we don't want all that sick on our hands...
David: "Dear team, thank you for being honest about your concerns and admitting you don't have sufficient VR coding skills to make flat-earth and VR work seamlessly together. I can't afford a higher level VR coder at this time but we can look into this again in a few years time. We will just cancel VR development for Odyssey. If we get any rage/hate from VR users just use one of the following stock replies:
"We don't feel we can do justice to a VR version at this time but we may consider it for the future".
"We haven't decided yet"
"VR has failed to sell in sufficient quantities to justify continued support"
"We love VR as much as you and we will look into the vague possibility of adding support down the line"
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The principal of the experi branch is that it would have more functionality than a mod. (Multiplayer access for a start, as any mod would doubtless be limited to solo play. But ideally the devs would have far more ability to introduce very basic QoL improvements to the flatscreen experience for potential VR access).
If it could prove to be essentially 'early access' to a prototype build, it would also be much more than an 'unofficial mod' in that sense.
It's an unusual ask, in many respects. But the situation of VR being put on a significant hiatus (at minimum) after 5+ years of support is also an unusual scenario
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The thread is now the 2nd most upvoted on record
As noted previously, the most popular threads have gained some form of reaction, one way or another. And although that's not guaranteed here at all, we are at least sending a decent signal to FDev.
Thanks to everyone who's support the proposal
EDIT: And if anyone knows how to list unique respondents to a thread, please let me know. We seem to be getting a high ratio of uniques, and it would be good to be able to check if that's true.
As noted previously, the most popular threads have gained some form of reaction, one way or another. And although that's not guaranteed here at all, we are at least sending a decent signal to FDev.
Thanks to everyone who's support the proposal
EDIT: And if anyone knows how to list unique respondents to a thread, please let me know. We seem to be getting a high ratio of uniques, and it would be good to be able to check if that's true.
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I see the VR interim or compromised implementation options for space legs as follows:
1. Head positioning only. (Lazy)
2. Head positioning with head-look. (Minimum acceptable, and compatible with seated play)
3. Head positioning with head-look and head tracking. (First significant step towards a full implementation)
Elite Dangerous already does number three in ships, so it's not unreasonable for it to be carried forward into the EVA part of the Odyssey expansion, with the only additional work required being the triggering of animations for head movement (looking around) and walk/jump/lean/crouch/plank type actions when the headset moves to certain relative positions. For those concerned about the potential advantage of using head tracking in VR for looking around corners, leaning is easily simulated in flatscreen mode.
Carrying over existing controller options to legs VR, such as HOTAS, keyboard and mouse, or gamepad would be very acceptable, and also would be no additional work for any of the above listed options.
If FDev wanted to go further, they could add the following to option three:
-Tracking arm (and finger where possible and relevant) movements with existing VR controllers for gestures, aiming, reloading, drawing/holstering weapons, etc.
-Implementing features to reduce nausea issues with smooth locomotion in the game.
I don't think anything more than that is really needed, or that head-look should be directly connected to aiming.
Also, I don't think teleport should be an option. You can either become accustomed to smooth FPS locomotion in VR, or else you don't go to legs mode in VR, or at least try not to engage in any PvP when you're doing it, so you can travel at your own pace and comfort.
Overall, I think the amount of effort required to have a minimum acceptable level of VR support is bordering on trivial, and that even a full implementation is a very reasonable amount of work that can be done and released in stages. Critically, I see it as entirely realistic that option three could be available at launch, or at worst very shortly after, if Frontier committed to the feature today. I see no reason why option two could not or should not be made immediately available on release (with any required disclaimers) in a separate experimental or alpha release launcher option, regardless of anything else.
1. Head positioning only. (Lazy)
2. Head positioning with head-look. (Minimum acceptable, and compatible with seated play)
3. Head positioning with head-look and head tracking. (First significant step towards a full implementation)
Elite Dangerous already does number three in ships, so it's not unreasonable for it to be carried forward into the EVA part of the Odyssey expansion, with the only additional work required being the triggering of animations for head movement (looking around) and walk/jump/lean/crouch/plank type actions when the headset moves to certain relative positions. For those concerned about the potential advantage of using head tracking in VR for looking around corners, leaning is easily simulated in flatscreen mode.
Carrying over existing controller options to legs VR, such as HOTAS, keyboard and mouse, or gamepad would be very acceptable, and also would be no additional work for any of the above listed options.
If FDev wanted to go further, they could add the following to option three:
-Tracking arm (and finger where possible and relevant) movements with existing VR controllers for gestures, aiming, reloading, drawing/holstering weapons, etc.
-Implementing features to reduce nausea issues with smooth locomotion in the game.
I don't think anything more than that is really needed, or that head-look should be directly connected to aiming.
Also, I don't think teleport should be an option. You can either become accustomed to smooth FPS locomotion in VR, or else you don't go to legs mode in VR, or at least try not to engage in any PvP when you're doing it, so you can travel at your own pace and comfort.
Overall, I think the amount of effort required to have a minimum acceptable level of VR support is bordering on trivial, and that even a full implementation is a very reasonable amount of work that can be done and released in stages. Critically, I see it as entirely realistic that option three could be available at launch, or at worst very shortly after, if Frontier committed to the feature today. I see no reason why option two could not or should not be made immediately available on release (with any required disclaimers) in a separate experimental or alpha release launcher option, regardless of anything else.
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The principal of the experi branch is that it would have more functionality than a mod. (Multiplayer access for a start, as any mod would doubtless be limited to solo play. But ideally the devs would have far more ability to introduce very basic QoL improvements to the flatscreen experience for potential VR access).
If it could prove to be essentially 'early access' to a prototype build, it would also be much more than an 'unofficial mod' in that sense.
It's an unusual ask, in many respects. But the situation of VR being put on a significant hiatus (at minimum) after 5+ years of support is also an unusual scenario
Frontier dropping VR support is shocking given the blurb on the ED website "Made for VR". Let's look at the facts... Frontier (unless living under rock in some remote galaxy) know that VR isn't in decline. VR is continuing to evolve. So the decision to drop VR support is most likely a technical one where Frontier decided it was too much effort to solve problems of accommodating flat-earth and VR users in one game. Once again, unless living under a rock in some remote galaxy, Frontier must be aware that the VR nausea hysteria isn't the enormous super-inflated thing it once was. Games accommodate comfort users and smooth locomotion. I suspect the decision to drop VR was something to do with the question of how to accommodate both camps and perhaps on the mistaken belief that FPS doesn't work well for VR (this is 2020 and we know it does).
This is my two cents for whatever it is worth. A VR branch to Elite Dangerous is not something that I can get behind myself. The primary reason for this is because there is then no incentive whatsoever for Frontier to actually work on fully implemented VR support from that moment onward. I love Frontier and I love E. However, that being said... Frontier have proven time after time that they are either unwilling or unable to go back and improve wholesale on things within the game. My fear would be that with a branch the whole VR question would become sidelined until it was entirely forgotten by later players. I am in the camp that will not be buying EDO unless FULL VR support is included. I will not "settle" for anything less. Frontiers track record for implementing things at a later date is well documented and is abysmal at best. Let me be clear, I am not salty with frontier I am a fan and have been happy to support them until now. I understand why Frontier are taking this path. Maybe the development team is too small to do this in a timely manner, maybe the expertise is not available, maybe there simply is a lack of desire within the team. I have no clue as nothing has been said outright.
. However, that being said... Frontier have proven time after time that they are either unwilling or unable to go back and improve wholesale on things within the game. My fear would be that with a branch the whole VR question would become sidelined until it was entirely forgotten by later players. I am in the camp that will not be buying EDO unless FULL VR support is included. I will not "settle" for anything less. Frontiers track record for implementing things at a later date is well documented and is abysmal at best. Let me be clear, I am not salty with frontier I am a fan and have been happy to support them until now. I understand why Frontier are taking this path. Maybe the development team is too small to do this in a timely manner, maybe the expertise is not available, maybe there simply is a lack of desire within the team. I have no clue as nothing has been said outright.Fair enough on holding out for a full VR version.
I understand the fear of an experi branch becoming an MVP. I would argue though that, because it wouldn’t be of a marketable standard, there’s still an incentive for them to develop it further.
This is too much conjecture built on conjecture for me. Just because the VR market is growing doesn’t mean it currently competes with the flatscreen market for ROI.
From my perspective it’s perfectly reasonable for them to ensure the success of EDO in the flatscreen market before risking significant dev time on the VR market. On the principle that they do want to make a decent job of it when they get to it.
Although it’s true that there are some touchstone dev solutions to nausea, FPS support, and VR/flatscreen crossplay, it doesn’t mean that implementing them all to decent standard is trivial or straightforward dev. It’s likely far more involved than the cockpit VR support that has preceded it. (And so far riskier on the ROI front).
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This is the best post I’ve seen on this forum since I joined in 2015.
It doesn't have to compete with flat-earth gaming. VR is a rapid growth industry and it has been on a steady upward development curve long before Oculus or Valve VR were things. Frontier made a commitment to VR. The crucial point is that it's just not very nice to backtrack on that now. No one forced them to commit to VR back when it was even less popular. How it compares to flat-earth isn't relevant given Frontier brought VR at a time when the hardware and software market was smaller than it is today.
I don't really care what the excuses are or what the challenges are. It's not rocket-science and it's totally achievable.
This
Sure, agreed, that’s one of the key reasons for this pitch
An experimental branch is an unusual solution, but discontinuing VR support after 5+ years is an unusual scenario too...
Weirdly enough, saying "I don’t care what the issues are, just do it" is unlikely to make those issues go away. It certainly hasn’t had an appreciable impact on FDev’s stance to date.
Taking account of announced blockers (quality control & nausea mitigation), and other likely factors (ROI, internal resourcing etc), could help us suggest more workable solutions. And so have a better chance of seeing them enacted.
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A lot of VR players seems to feel like that (myself included). I'm not really bothered about doing the new FPS stuff in VR, Elite is a spaceship game as far as I'm concerned and walking around isn't something I'm particularly interested in. Especially if that means we lose VR support for the spaceship game I bought.
I want them to add VR to the "Call of duty in space" part for the people that are into that, but there is absolutely no justifiable reason whatsoever for them to not support VR in EDO whilst you aren't doing the FPS part. If they don't at least do that then they are being really lazy. By their own admission it took one guy a couple of days to add VR support to ED whist it was in Alpha.
The whole situation makes me feel pretty cross tbh but I'll leave it at that since the OP wants this thread to maintain a positive vibe and I respect that.
yeah well I’m interested in FPS in VR. I do it in many other games without any problems. The reasons giving not including it on release seem utterly pathetic to me.
It is becoming more and more apparent that they just can't be bothered. Plenty of other games have worked out the mechanics for FPS in VR so all they have to do is copy them at least. Between Lone Echo, NMS, Robo Recall and Half life alyx there would need to be some pretty unique game play in EDO for them to need to invent anything new. All they need to do is make a bit if an effort. As it stands they can't even make enough effort to commit to trying to make an effort.
I'm stuffed with my main account because I have a lifetime expansion pass (which they won't refund; I asked) but I'll not be buying any future DLC and I won't buy EDO for my other account until they can be bothered.
All I'm getting from this is that we really need to be able to generate our own waypoints, and that Frontier hasn't made this possible.The thread is now the 2nd most upvoted on record
As noted previously, the most popular threads have gained some form of reaction, one way or another. And although that's not guaranteed here at all, we are at least sending a decent signal to FDev.
Thanks to everyone who's support the proposal
EDIT: And if anyone knows how to list unique respondents to a thread, please let me know. We seem to be getting a high ratio of uniques, and it would be good to be able to check if that's true.