Because if one's goal is to just "tag" something (as opposed to "go to X"), then they'll get just as annoyed when they can't find an undiscovered system, especially without knowing how big the explored bubble is. Otherwise people tend to go "someplace" - a nebula, Sgt A, some other cool-looking thing in the distance. Heck, even a purely random direction. In that case, knowing which systems have and which haven't been seen would only be a deterrent if most of the galaxy had been explored. Since the galaxy is really REALLY freaking huge, that seems like a non-issue.
On a side note, it also makes little sense not to have that information. If you decide to go someplace where no one has been before, you'd probably stock up on the latest maps you can get anyway, right?
Because if one's goal is to just "tag" something (as opposed to "go to X"), then they'll get just as annoyed when they can't find an undiscovered system, especially without knowing how big the explored bubble is.
So they go off the beaten paths like you did, and then find the undiscovereds they are looking for.
There's plenty of new CMDRs checking in the exploration forum who did just that, or got the advice to do that and are now reporting finding all kinds of stuff near the bubble
It's a matter of 2 subjective experiences. One is having to travel further to find undiscovereds, one is having to deal with some discovereds while looking for undiscovereds. At the moment I feel from dealing with new explorers the latter one isn't that big a deal. In fact finding that first undiscovered becomes more of an event for new explorers. But as I said, I can't be sure, since it's all subjective. It's a gutfeeling I have from personal experience.
edit: check the explorer forum for examples.
On a side note, it also makes little sense not to have that information. If you decide to go someplace where no one has been before, you'd probably stock up on the latest maps you can get anyway, right?
That's right. And that's where the proposal to have systems which are often explored available for purchase. If I sell my data for one system to a company, they're not going to make that common knowledge straight away. They paid for it after all. But when this data has been sold and resold many times, then it does become public knowledge.
By the way, the rest of your points where very valid, so don't think I'm just here to rain on your parade
What do we want?
Waypoints
When do we want them?
As soon as possible please FD if its not too much trouble and you are not too busy eating pizza and playing your ukelele's.
But where exactly IS the beaten path? If you can't see it, how can you tell?
Asking on forums for advice is kind of metagaming at this point.
That's right. And that's where the proposal to have systems which are often explored available for purchase. If I sell my data for one system to a company, they're not going to make that common knowledge straight away. They paid for it after all. But when this data has been sold and resold many times, then it does become public knowledge.
I agree that they might not share the EXACT details of discovered systems. They may very well share that the systems have already been discovered (or partially discovered). In fact, THAT data is already available once you actually GET to a system. So really, there's no reason said data couldn't be accessed earlier... unless we literally tag stellar objects by peeing on them with FSD fumes or something and need to get close to smell them.
By the way, the rest of your points where very valid, so don't think I'm just here to rain on your parade
I don't quite agree. I WENT off the beaten path. I specifically decided to go "down" before I started to make my way towards the core. The amount of systems already taken was beginning to annoy me, specifically BECAUSE I didn't know when they would stop being discovered. In other words, I think it's far more annoying seeing someone's already been to a star system you think is "pristine" rather than seeing where people have been from the get-go.
Sgr A* is as popular spot and other (like you) thought they'd take alternate routes. So yes, places you have been to have seen 500+ explorers previously.
I'm with Ziggy. If you want to see if a system is claimed, then go there. I headed off to an area without nebula or any thing of substance. I made it to the galactic edge and past the 4500 LY mark I did not see a single CMDR claimed system. I'm in an area of space that has never been visited by anyone. There's lots of places like that, you just need to get away from the main lines (routes to nebula and Sgr A*).
Exploration is no where near as hard as it used to be in the days of 1.1. Therefore, more people are doing it. The core systems have been covered. Time to move further afield.
Oh and asteroid fields ARE minable. Just made a couple of million in the last weekend in there actually.
Couldn't agree more. Sadly the feedback from Lavecon looks like it can be summarised as "exploring is not a priority". I very much doubt I will still have ED installed by the time any substantive improvements to exploring are even hinted at let alone implemented . Here's hoping some other game can create what exploring in ED could have been.
Yep, I'm hoping that exploration gets a bit more love - a usability upgrade at least - if not new features.
Waypoints, remembering previous destinations, previous routes, etc. Those would all be good.
And searching in the galaxy map.
Oh, and speeding up opening of the system map [personal pet hate...].
1) I'd like to at least be able to see where I've been, perhaps with a percentage marker. if one is trying to map out an area then this would really help and seems like something the year 3300 computer would do for you. Also to take notes on the systems you have explored that become visible when you want to sell.
2) Much better information about the exploration you've done, maps, stats, notes etc
3) I'd like to see exploring be much more involving. I think there should be a basic and advanced surface scanner which can provide a fair amount of detail, then there should be dedicated equipment for scanning/sampling atmospheres (such as on both on rocky and gas planet types), water, rock (for precious elements such as metals) and even life. Maybe there might be a few different scanners just to scan different stars or other stellar phenomena.
I would imagine that most explorer craft haven't got enough cargo room to take all the scanners, you'd have to specialise and take notes if you want to go back with different equipment. Then you can justify the payments being significantly bigger for much more detailed information. Maybe an explorer needs to spend more time in system to get the big money?
Maybe you find a system with planets (and asteroids) rich in valuable metals. this is very useful information and you have precise details to hand over. Or maybe your came back with a basic scan of an earthlike world and then UC hands out a mission (to you or others) to go and scan it with specialised equipment to get more info.
of course, this plays well into planetary landings where you can go down and directly get samples
4) different buyers of exploration data. UC could be a default buyer perhaps, they'll always buy data but a mining corp would pay extra for exclusive mining information (and they'll come after you if they find out you sold it to someone else too). a physics lab might ask you go to 5000LY to scan a certain type of star and they give you a dedicated scanner to scan it with. a military organisation might pay you to stealthily "explore" an opponents naval yard or defensive structures and come back with intel. You might have to find out who the best buyers for certain types of data is and then to make a special visit to make the sale.
There is a hell of a lot of scope to make all this quite involved and exciting I think.
Of course exploring is not a priority for FD, there is no revenue in it for them. It is sadly a minority activity so they won't even upset that many of us by continuing to ignore it. I get sad every time I think of what was promised for exploring in the DDF and is never going to be implemented.
Of course exploring is not a priority for FD, there is no revenue in it for them. It is sadly a minority activity so they won't even upset that many of us by continuing to ignore it. I get sad every time I think of what was promised for exploring in the DDF and is never going to be implemented.
I'm not sure I understand. Of course there is revenue in exploration, or why would we bother with a 400 billion-stars galaxy in the first place? Wouldn't a significant percentage of the people playing ED be playing it for exploration (or where are all those Discovered By tags coming from?). It may not be the largest percentage, but if FD just wanted a game that made the most possible revenue with the least amount of effort, why make a space simulator in the first place?
It's been mentioned here (loosely definited here in this case, probably a case of "here on my screen") that people on the forum tend to look at ED as a AAA production while the team and resources behind it is a bit smaller than that. But they are very enthusiastic, and it is a dream that's being realised, not (only) a revenue stream for FD. So with PatienceTM, I'm sure we will see upgrades to exploration SoonTM.
Meanwhile my sentiments echo some of them here. However, largely I think exploration is too easy. We can zip around the galaxy in no time at all, and the decay of ship systems and such mean little. A bit more complex and fragile ship systems combined with interaction with our ships themselves would be great:
- The ability to walk around on the ships and go EVA would open up the ability to make the running of the ship a game within the game.
- Following the above, repairing/jerry rigging systems to work after break-down, salvaging parts of one system to repair another, even carry spare parts and modules, could be made part of the game. By forcing us to leave the pilots seat and find works to apply spanners to.
- Mining equipment could be used to gain raw materials to use for repair and replenishments for systems. Special autofabricator modules could be used to make parts on the go. Woe is me when the autofabricators/power plant needs repairing manually.
- To avoid this potential part of the game being a car-service-simulator, the job could mainly be to supervise drones. Only manual work would then be to keep the drones going, and maybe wipe the outside of the cockpit canopy.
This way, keeping a ship running outside populated space would require skill, as suddenly there are no nearby service stations to fix leaky radiators or chicken soup dispensers. Exploration would need to be planned with regards to supplies and not just be a oh-now-I-need-that-A-grade-fuel-scoop-and-why-are-scanners-so-expensive ventures.
Of course, the rewards would need to be great as well if it becomes a challenge to jump several systems:
- being able to land and take samples
- sample gas giant atmospheres
- salvage wreckages of previous explorers left behind as USSes, their lost data banks could be recoverable artefacts, to be sold with a percentage profit for the finder (100% to finder, tags to the original explorer). Such wreckages might simply be a USS spawned by data gathered by FD on where people's ships are destroyed in deep space.
- being able to set up small unmanned depots/research bases. These should require a bit of effort though, so best done by teams or as mini community goals. A way to do this might be by having a player apply for a depot in a location, then let FD set it up. It can either be announced for everybody or not, so only people stumbling over it or hearing it from word of mouth would contribute to it. Being able to refuel/repair at it might depend on supplies there, and on having the code/permit to use it if one is set up. These should of course be hackable like the mining camps in Frontier.
Just ideas to flesh out exploration. I think the Galaxy is detailed enough, we just have too easy a time traversing it.
Of course exploring is not a priority for FD, there is no revenue in it for them. It is sadly a minority activity so they won't even upset that many of us by continuing to ignore it. I get sad every time I think of what was promised for exploring in the DDF and is never going to be implemented.
What to prioritise on is always a nightmare for companies. You only have so much time, money and people and are pulled in a hundred different ways by the designers and the community. On this thread you have people pressing for exploration upgrades, on another it's more ships, another it's combat mechanics and another its thargoids,
Just how do you pick? The group that makes the most fuss on the forums/reddit? What will keep people playing? What's most broken or what's closest to your internal vision and design for the game
Here's a hypothetical example. you have some upgrades to the exploration game style all lined up and designed, in the mean time you are getting ready to release a set up updates to the flight model. Then beta testing shows up some major bugs which needs additional people to fix before it's launched.
You then have a choice. Do you
A/ Take people off the exploration upgrades to help, delaying the exploration upgrades but fixing the bugs
B/ Keep people working on exploration and delay a long awaited release?
You cant do both.
It's these sorts of questions that face frontier and other games companies everyday and why I don't envy them one bit
Of course exploring is not a priority for FD, there is no revenue in it for them. It is sadly a minority activity so they won't even upset that many of us by continuing to ignore it. I get sad every time I think of what was promised for exploring in the DDF and is never going to be implemented.
One of it's biggest selling points has been 400 bloody billion star systems. Check it out! And then the people devoting their gamestyle to doing just that can go screw themselves as far as FD is concerned. making the 400 billion star system nothing more than an advertising slogan.
Of the 100 new players joining ED 99 of those will be for pew pew, its only for those interested in astronomy and what is out there that go off exploring for long periods of time. I am not bothered about the money, but I would like to see something different out there, my debug camera is starting to rust.
If the info you request becomes available, the available systems near the bubble will dry up more quickly as you say. Which would be a deterrent for new explorers.
Think two moves ahead Ziggy. If the bubble adjacent area gets cherry picked, it's actually a good thing, because once the bulk of the player base gets ticked off because the "placeholder mechanic" of first-tag-exploration is no longer an option for casual playstyles, then FD will be forced to deepen the general exploring mechanic to make near field exploring interesting again.
What would you rather have, casual noobs who complain about combat/mining/trade but are happy with shallow exploring? Or irate noobs storming the castle in a quest for more a meaningful and captivating exploration experience?
Increasing the path-finding distance to 1000LS was a good call... except, why is it limited at all? Why not have it calculate a route for the next 1000LS somewhere in the general direction of your destination and then recalculate the route after you go those 1000LS? We still need to keep checking to galaxy map for potential fuel problems, so it's not like we'll set a target and forget about it.
Seriously underwhelming back holes. I know no one's really SEEN a black hole in real life, but what we get in game is... disappointing and anticlimactic. Could you perhaps buff those up a little bit? Or even a lot? I know they're supposed to be black and dense, but one would wager there would be all sorts of weird phenomena near said black holes!
Like anything else that has mass, one can establish an orbit around a black hole. The closer you get, the faster you need to move - there's a limit of course, where even light isn't fast enough. But before you get to that point things could be really interesting.
As such, I'd expect black holes to be really freaking dangerous not only because you could get sucked in, but also because there could be stellar "debris" going round said black hole at extreme speeds. As it is, black holes are visually uninspiring, and not even that dangerous. All of this makes encountering one an odd and anticlimactic.
And, above all else, this is a game. A video game. There's nothing wrong with prettying it up a little bit, even if it doesn't go hand in hand with what's real, provided you don't go overboard.
Think two moves ahead Ziggy. If the bubble adjacent area gets cherry picked, it's actually a good thing, because once the bulk of the player base gets ticked off because the "placeholder mechanic" of first-tag-exploration is no longer an option for casual playstyles, then FD will be forced to deepen the general exploring mechanic to make near field exploring interesting again.
The assumption "then FD will be forced to deepen the general exploring mechanic to make near field exploring interesting again" is one I would not bet a single dime on, going by past experiences. I feel that right now FD has to look into the exploration mechanic by the simple fact they've been ignoring it for this long. Does that simple fact make me confident that FD is actually going to implement the needed changes?
Thinking 2 moves ahead requires intimate knowledge of the plans FD has towards exploration. Development is not an ad-hoc process, but requires time. If they haven't already started developing, we're going to have a long wait ahead of us.
- Asteroids fields near stars - what are they for? They aren't for mining, they aren't for bounty hunting, they aren't for exploration (even if exploration SEEMS like it is the only thing you can do with them right now). The only thing they do is slow you down and annoy you. Either remove them, or actually DO something with them. Or at least make them VISIBLE. Perhaps an asteroid ring around stars, like you get around planets?
- More cool stuff! How about pretty comets with huge ice trails scorning the galaxy? Rogue planets? Black holes being in the process of consuming a star / planet? There are tons of potentially cool star stuff we could witness as part of our trek, but the best we can hope for is a cool configuration of stars...
The Stellar Forge seeded Comets to systems so one can hope they are coming just the art team (and what ever else is needed) is just on higher priority progects
I made a topic not long ago about this (i.e exploration improvements), so I feel that I should just repost it here again. Overall on the forums you see a lot of complains/suggestions/pleas regarding combat/trading/metagame mostly, and while those definitely deserve their fair share of attention (especially metagame), due to uniqueness of E;D when it comes to "space available" to "play", exploration should also be one of the Top priorities imo. Because of this, I'll keep banging on this wall for as long as I can.
“Perhaps the oddest thing was that, for the most part, she appeared to be in fine shape – almost eerily so. The ‘Dei Gratia’ crew found no serious weather damage, no trace of a struggle, or any other sign of trouble that would have made veteran sailors abandon ship in the middle of the ocean. Stranger still, the crew had left behind foul-weather gear, personal belongings, even their pipes – things they almost certainly would have taken, or would have been wearing during a storm.
There were other things that seemed more than a little peculiar: The form of a sleeping child was imprinted in the wet mattress of one bunk, a few barrels of alcohol had broken open or leaked in the hold, and there was a decorative sword in the captain’s cabin, its blade peppered with a reddish stain. The last entry in the Mary Celeste’s logbook was an innocuous notation made ten days earlier that suggested nothing but a routine passage – and placed the ship more than 300 miles west of its current position. The men of the Dei Gratia could not imagine how the ship had traveled so far sailing under so little canvas, nor could they explain where its crew had gone or, just as confounding why. The brigantine’s captain and crew had simply vanished into the cold salt air.” Ghost Ship: The Mysterious True Story of the Mary Celeste and Her Missing Crew
By Brian Hick
I’m not exactly the most brave guy when it comes to horror. I usually just skip the 'scary parts' of movies with it and I simply don’t play horror games alone. Truth be told I just don’t like the hole “jump scare” thing (they are cheap) that a lot of medias still insist in over-using and I find most horror themes “forced” in one way or another. Because of all that, generally speaking I simply avoid it. For some reason though, the mere sight of an abandoned entity drifting along unopposed in silence, resting in complete loneliness, drains the heat out of my blood in ways that other horror themes don’t manage to do it. And yet - in contrast with what I've said at the start - I still want to see more of it, and I still want to explore it and understand it. All in all I’m sure this particular combination of mystery, “horror” and possible rewards/knowledge attached to it is not considered interesting just by me.
*shivers*
I’m also not a hardcore space flight sim player, however I did played almost everything that is available on the market and so far, I have not managed to see a single game make a proper in-depth use of this amazing opportunity. The opportunity to blend the exploration of the unknown with possible interesting rewards, and maybe, just maybe, add along a small pinch of “mystery/horror” over it (space after all, is disease & danger), and all that without sacrificing "scale" (available space) to make it happen.
Not a terrible movie if you are into this sort of thing.
EvE online recently did manage to score some points in this area. From the get go you can basically fit a small fast ship and head towards the edges of the galaxy, or if you are interested enter and stay inside wormholes exploring unknown space. Inside those places you will be looking for special sites (abandoned ships, structures, etc) using scans/probes (mini-game linked to it) and later on hacking said structures, also via a small mini-game, to get the loot (most of the times you get "normal" items, there are some other times though that you hit the motherload and just like that you are able to afford a Dreadnought – if you manage to head back home alive to sell it). And all this will be done while trying to avoid pirates, high conflict zones between player corporations fighting over sectors, traps/ambushes (bubles, gate camps, etc) laid out over the systems and NPCs of course. The more dangerous the zone you are is, the better the rewards will (most likely) be.
Still, there’s not much depth or “soul” to it. Almost all said structures look exactly the same and there’s just no “story” behind it. Also the special sites while not bad looking end up feeling.. bland because of all this. It sometimes ends up feeling that exploration there is pretty much just all about the money, or maybe I just don’t like the graphics colors and/or the 360º Third-person-unlimited-zoom camera for exploration/immersion purposes. Although it must be said that the method used there does help satisfy the hunt feeling that explorers usually want to experience while searching.
What lies beyond?
Elite: Dangerous is offering 400 Billion stars systems.. Jezz that’s a lot of space, and we are be able to reach the corners of the galaxy by just traveling through it with no “loading screens” - just you, the cockpit and the stars. The potencial to finally do this right is here, there’s just no denial. With a number like that though it's obvious that abandoned sectors will exist but still, it would be amazing if we could fill some of that space with somethingelse aside from the ordinary (i.e planet visuals). Unfortunately so far that’s not the impression I got.
I did read the DDA about exploration and my view about it is that their vision is just too limited at this point (especially when considering what their game offers in terms of “places to go” and how we will be able to go towards said places).
“In Elite: Dangerous explorers are players who travel out into undiscovered areas of the galaxy, hoping to find previously undiscovered systems and locations. Explorers scan and record data wherever they go, and can sell that data on to various interested authorities. Explorers can also sell on data they have discovered to other players, allowing them to sell the co-ordinates of a valuable find to the highest bidder, or keep their discoveries to exploit for themselves.” http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6418
Why limit to just that? Why not allow us to discover some weird derelicts/anomalies and maybe get/steal/salvage/hack/cut/blow up some materials from it? We could maybe use our computer to steal valuable information that’s available inside said structures.
There could also be some new modules that would allow us to “hack” the structure cargo hold (similar to EvE) or maybe we could use drones/special lazors to chew through sectors of said derelicts in order to hopefully get something interesting out it (it would also be a good idea to avoid the “fuel tank” while doing this – there could be a special scanner in the future that would give us some insight on the ship/station/whatever structure composition, allowing us to avoid critical zones and go after the most valuable ones. And other times it would not be able to get any info whatsoever. Example; you find a very old ship model that has not been seen in decades/centuries and your computer has no data on it, or maybe an alien ship).
Maybe we could also assume direct control of certain abandoned structures by accessing the mainframe, or sell to an interested person the location to do so. This could be one of the ways to populate zones that were considered at first completely abandoned (or perhaps we could just rig it to explode next time someone tries to access it, te hee). Adding some of this would certain give the game the option to start increasing its overall content by putting some logistics into play, making it desirable and certainly more profitable to start doing exploration operations with a group of players supporting each other in case their ship does not carry all the necessary equipment to work with what was found (Or if they want 3 Anacondas to escort them back to safe space because they just found an alien relic with probably an amazing selling potencial).
Image just for a second a group of explorers that found some fairly interesting stuff in a sector that I personally like to call "dark zones" (while exploring in deep space, if you are not paying attention, you can end up entering a sector with 0 scoopable stars (example: BOETHS DH-N A61-2) and if you don't realize your mistake early you will die there along with all the data you are carrying). Now, since their ships simply don't have fuel to get in and out and do the job at the same time, they decide to bring an Fuel Tank specced Anaconda, so this way instead of having their ships sacrifice space to bring fuel tanks they can instead simply equip more tools to work with what was found. By adding more content and ways to interact with it a proper logistic system will be born, and when that happens true actual expeditions will be able to be formed, along of course with a new metagame system and a proper player-driven sandbox experience.
While on the subject, it would be a really nice addition if we could have a bigger interactivity with our ship systems as we are exploring/scanning by allowing us to mess around (and see) with our cockpit more while doing said actions (DCS cockpits anyone? - https://youtu.be/a4VuDetuPmA?t=3m9s). Small example; let’s say you choose to go with the hacking route - make it so that when the hacking starts a keyboard pops up on the ship and we have to type IRL special “codes” on the screen (So far I’ve been just throwing ideas here, no balance/real thought taken too much into account here. Leave your personal ideas bellow if you are interested.) Also while scanning stuff, some displays on the screen with general info about the system/planet/ship/station/ possible composition/minerals/gases available/heat signatures/radio chatter/general stuff like that, would certainly go long ways to help the immersion and it would definitely reduce the "boredom" while exploring by allowing us to be more involved with the game and the ship itself.
It’s over 9000.
But also; as we are doing all this, why not have in some cases a weird audiolog pop-up while we scan and access the computer of a derelict ship? Maybe some notes giving some insight on why this abandoned station has no one alive on it? Or just some “strange” sounds while we scan a weird anomaly/structure that just popped up on the radar? Flashes on the horizon? Distress signals with high interference? Weapons sounds coming through an anomaly you just scanned? Light signals? Morse code?! What I’m asking here is for you dear Devs to tease us more with some questions about things we may see/hear in our travels. Give us something else to seek on the galaxy aside from money and status.
“Mystery creates wonder and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand”. - Neil Armstrong
TL.DR
ED has an amazing potencial when it comes to Exploration and it definitely should be expanded (much, much) more.
