Extraterrestrial societies

[mcdowect]

This game has such a grand possibility for greatness.

Something that I believe would add an immense amount of depth to the in-game universe is that of "alien" societies. They would be very rare of course, perhaps 1 in every 100,000 planets would have advanced life, maybe 10% of that would have evolved to achieve sentience.

I'm talking about societies of peoples on planets out there in the galaxies, societies that would be at different points of advancement, from primitive tribal societies to highly advanced space fairing societies.

Whats more, if you encountered a planet with one of these societies you could visit them on their planet. Different societies would have different styles of architecture, different cultures, different languages.

Architecture would be related to the environment they evolved in as well as the point the society is at in its evolution.

Cultures could vary wildly from simplistic and primitive nomadic cultures and advanced warrior societies, to intellectual and philosophical societies.

They could live on water worlds with eloquent cities floating upon the waves. Or in underground mazes designed to protect from the corrosive atmosphere of ammonia planets.


There is so much potential, do not allow it to be squandered by some blind adherence to the past.

 

[bigredforester]

I know a little bit about the latest theory's about astrobiology and it is actually quite plausible that we are the only technological life in the galaxy at this point. my gut feeling on the matter, (this is just speculation) is that prokaryote (bacteria) like life is very common, ( almost a certainty on a suitable planet). the other forms are rarer, as for planets that complex cells evolved I would guess that maybe 10% or the above mentioned planets had that happen, as for multi-cellular live, maybe 5% or the previous got that far, as for intelligence maybe 1 percent of that, as for technology. even rarer. like less that once percent of the previous

look at earth, it is 4,000 million years old, prokaryotes, have probably been around more then 3500 million years, complex cells maybe 2000 million years. But for multi-cellular life the earliest undisputed fossils are maybe 650 million years, as for what we could consider self aware life, that might only be ~ 3million years old, as for technology that would stand out as such past low earth orbit, maybe 500 years.

 

[Hekantonkheries]

elite already has aliens

elite already has alien civilizations confirmed for future content

theyre called thargoids, they arent nice, and likely anything farther away from earth than them was already munched, or so xenophobic due to their first interactions being with the aforementioned thargoids that theyd shoot us on sight anyways

 

[Vision1776]

They could do something similar to powerplay. Add a just a couple of new alien races some neutral and others hostile. News reports of invasions could have players respond to invasions to fight off the threats. The galaxy could become a real tug-o-war between players and alien ai. Stations can be blown to pieces and very interesting things can happen. Connect areas of the galaxy with wormwhole or jumpgates so that the galaxy is more reachable.

Player interactions with neutral races could eventually lead to alliances where the alien races allow free trade and open borders, or player actions could provoke wars. This is the type of thing that would create depth to the game. Add a few other things like employing npcs and building small fleets and you got yourself a more completed game.

 

[Hekantonkheries]

it wouldnt be interesting though, realistically, same reason why things like EVE never made "100% hostile to everyone" factions

PP overall would suffer even more if it involved completely hostile races (outside maybe the thargoids as a non-territory holding "imminent threat" type thing, like the Borg in Star Trek), because why would people fight eachother over territory when they can just go blow up endless NPC hostiles that no one can complain about because that faction is hostile to everyone equally anyways? and what incentive would groups have mechanic or lore wise to keep fighting if massive AI hostiles were ever encroaching on their territory?


dont get me wrong though, would love more stuff relying on AI and the BGS, actual skirmish/border fleets between the empire and federation would be wonderful, though would fall apart in the instanced system we have now, but thats a different topic entirely

 

[Vision1776]

I dont think lack of PVP is really a problem now with CQC.

Also if we are so worried that the game would turn to pure PVE then allow players to start alien characters.

Regardless there are so many things they can do to make the game more interesting like actual player factions that control spaceports and and territories. But at that point you are looking at a first person EVE.

 

[mcdowect]

I really dont understand where the hate for EVE online in this game comes from. Eve online is a fantastic game that got a lot of features incredibly right, Eve's big problem is its community, the game itself is great.

Also I understand that alien life would be rare, the numbers and percentages i gave in my OP were just that, examples.

 

[Hekantonkheries]

problem is, you cant have player-centered ANYTHING in elite for 2 reasons

1) FD doesnt really want it, they want the focus of the game to be on a narrative they write and control

2) the server/connection architecture, instancing and 32 player limits means theres no real competition for resources/space, and players ant "claim" space effectively because while theyre doing 1 thing somewhere, someone else doing the same thing to claim that space in the same spot, but they are in different instances, how do you determine whos project gets "priority"?

you want EVE in elite first youd have to solve the problem of how do you remove the 32-player limit without crushing the games playability, and then youd have to severely restrict the capabilities of players in solo so they cant game the player faction mechanics without ever being in danger (and contrary to alot of people claims, if there wasnt a 32 player instance limit, being forced into open wouldnt be so bad because it would be alot less likely youd find yourself stranded amongst hostiles with no allies)

but either way, neither of the 2 issues are going to change, so yeah




and saying "pvp isnt a problem we have CQC", thats garbage, CQC isnt "pvp" its a simple arena shooter, no bearing on the overall game and no access to anything above a fighter. if anything we need MORE reasons for players to find eachother in the main game for a shootout, whether thats AI-initiaited and maintained wars or what, i dont know




either way, adding in arbitrary "alien factions" for no reason beyond "ermahgerd space games need aliens" is terrible, and like i already said, FD HAS plans for aliens, same plans theyve ALWAYS had in elite, they are called thargoids and they WILL re-enact soem scenes from the first episode of american horror story hotel on you (darn censor)

 

[bigian12]

That would ruin your day, landing on a nice earthlike world only to be attacked by savages with sticks and large stones.

 

[mcdowect]

The problem with the "there will be thargoids so we dont need other "aliens" " argument is that as we all know the thargoids are exclusively aggressive. I'm sorry but I find that depressingly simplistic, especially with the possibility for so much more depth and interaction. This argument is basically the same mentality as "we dident have it in the previous Elites so we shouldent have it in this one" I'm sorry but gaming has evolved since the 80's people today want more depth and less one dimensional mechanics.

 

[Hekantonkheries]

how is having neutral NPC factions, or anything "super alien", playable or not, make the game less one dimensional?


look at what we have right now, lots of factions fighting eachother. why do they fight? loyalties and ideals, theyre all human, but theyre different because of their ideals, which means plays choose who they empathise with or who pays the most and carry their banner.


now factor in putting aliens out there in the game as primary factions. you run into the star trek issue, where each race is just a singular reflection of an aspect of humanity (vulcans are ALL logical, romulans are ALL paranoid, klingons are ALL aggressive), so not only does thematically the aliens become pointless, but because they are identified as being different at a basic level, you detract from the various HUMAN conflicts in the game and instead make it a focus of "us vs them"/"same vs different".


now am i saying aliens should be totally excluded?

no.

but they should have no major standing point as an influential power, if anything they should be annexed by the various powers as colonial territories. then in the long term work them in aesthetically in the design of enw ships or the emergence of new PP leaders, that way the aliens come across as individual entities rather than "alien A is this, alien B is that"


im tired right now so myenglish may have broken down here or there, but i hpe i got my point acrooss

 

[mcdowect]

how is having neutral NPC factions, or anything "super alien", playable or not, make the game less one dimensional?


look at what we have right now, lots of factions fighting eachother. why do they fight? loyalties and ideals, theyre all human, but theyre different because of their ideals, which means plays choose who they empathise with or who pays the most and carry their banner.


now factor in putting aliens out there in the game as primary factions. you run into the star trek issue, where each race is just a singular reflection of an aspect of humanity (vulcans are ALL logical, romulans are ALL paranoid, klingons are ALL aggressive), so not only does thematically the aliens become pointless, but because they are identified as being different at a basic level, you detract from the various HUMAN conflicts in the game and instead make it a focus of "us vs them"/"same vs different".


now am i saying aliens should be totally excluded?

no.

but they should have no major standing point as an influential power, if anything they should be annexed by the various powers as colonial territories. then in the long term work them in aesthetically in the design of enw ships or the emergence of new PP leaders, that way the aliens come across as individual entities rather than "alien A is this, alien B is that"


im tired right now so myenglish may have broken down here or there, but i hpe i got my point acrooss

Yes, its true that we have different factions, however they are all basically the same.

They're all at the same level of evolution both technologically and socially.

All the factions also have basically the same culture, different ideals sure, but the cultures are the same. A real world demonstration of this would be America vs. the UK they have basically the same ideals but vastly different cultures. The in-game factions are the same just in reverse.


Also, dont fall into the error of assuming that alien societies must be as simplistic, culturally, as the star trek ones, instead of the alien societies in-game being one dimensional reflections of humanity they could, and should be deeply complex societies with their own cultures, languages, mannerisms, reactions to outsiders, belief systems, etc.


Next, no, the existence of aliens does not mean the creation of an "us vs. them" conflict. That mentality derives from peoples fear of difference, however I believe that aliens could be implemented without causing that divide, particularly by not making them major threats "except thargoids, obviously".

In addition with the addition of alien races you then set up a future dynamic for diplomacy, alliances ( politically, militarily, and trade), and allies which could be exploited with the coming of the thargoids.

There are literally such a huge amount of things, moments, and interactions that alien societies could bring that it could fill a dissertation.

 

[Bromius]

Consider that current usage of the Drake Equation narrows the estimate of current sentient races in the galaxy to be less than 100,000 probably a lot less. But even at 100k, we're talking 1 in every 4 million star systems. How many planets have we surface scanned so far?

Also, at least in one of the Elite Dangerous books, the Thargoids is actually a term describing several sentient species of alien life. The rarity of encountering sentient non-human life is such that it really isn't a 'bankable' game mechanic.

 

[mcdowect]

I love realism as much as anyone and could discuss in depth with you the intricacies of the usage and application of the drake equation, of the Goldilocks zone, and the ability for DNA, RNA and mutiplicates of those to form on various types of worlds with various types of environments with various chemistries.

But, at a point,

Realism must give way to gameplay. After all this is a game we are talking about.

 

[Hekantonkheries]

Yes, its true that we have different factions, however they are all basically the same.

They're all at the same level of evolution both technologically and socially.

All the factions also have basically the same culture, different ideals sure, but the cultures are the same. A real world demonstration of this would be America vs. the UK they have basically the same ideals but vastly different cultures. The in-game factions are the same just in reverse.


Also, dont fall into the error of assuming that alien societies must be as simplistic, culturally, as the star trek ones, instead of the alien societies in-game being one dimensional reflections of humanity they could, and should be deeply complex societies with their own cultures, languages, mannerisms, reactions to outsiders, belief systems, etc.


Next, no, the existence of aliens does not mean the creation of an "us vs. them" conflict. That mentality derives from peoples fear of difference, however I believe that aliens could be implemented without causing that divide, particularly by not making them major threats "except thargoids, obviously".

In addition with the addition of alien races you then set up a future dynamic for diplomacy, alliances ( politically, militarily, and trade), and allies which could be exploited with the coming of the thargoids.

There are literally such a huge amount of things, moments, and interactions that alien societies could bring that it could fill a dissertation.

the problem becomes, with 90%+ of scifi (and almost all of the "good" ones, as in star trek, mass effect, stargate, babylon 5, etc) lazy writing and/or an effort/excuse to make the aliens "seem alien" necessitates an overly impractical focus on one aspect of the culture/personality applied to the entire group to define them as "alien".

because the ONLY way we as humans can view something is by seeing what they have that we dont, or what we have that they dont, an since conceptualizing concepts entirely foreign to ourselves is in its very nature difficult, writers general opt to write aliens as somehow lacking something humans have in abundance, which invariably somehow makes humans the super special mary sues that miraculously, to the poor judgement of every intelligent species in the universe, werent cleansed in holy exterminatus upon the first broadcast of jersey shore reaching a foreign star.

star wars being one of the few series that throughout its expanded universe actually treated most aliens as just "just like everybody else, but maybe mroe fur, or a sexy skin color, or sexy head tails" where the only "alien" thing about them is what they looked like. and honestly if aliens HAD to be brought into elite, i would prefer they be done in that way, where its just "different looking humans" with just as highly varied cultures/ideals within each group as the humans

but of course then we will get a bunch of people saying the aliens are "too much the same as humans"

 

[bigredforester]

you all might be interested in the orions arm universe, http://www.orionsarm.com/ .

this is set 10k years in the future and I think is one of the best hard sf setting out there. they are a little optimistic on the number of ET societies in my opinion but besides that they do a very good job in how they treat them, (none even remotely like us)

 

[Vision1776]

all I hear are a bunch of but's. Meanwhile Elite Dangerous is suffering from a lack of content. A giant 400 billion star systems of the same. Adding sentient life like factions as I said would make the game interesting and would give some meaning to the things you do. Powerplay isnt working for me and most people.

I like the concept of Eve, but as pointed out above, that wouuld require instancing larger amounts