Yes. It's as stupid as it sounds. But it works because the cargo scoop and landing gear speed restrictions apply for F/A off, too, although the deceleration effect is not as strong as with F/A on.
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Newcomer / Intro FA off
- Thread starter Tyres O'Flaherty
- Start date
There are three important things, imo, to know before you go developing this skill.
- It's easier to learn in a medium ship that doesn't turn too fast. Try a Python. (I'm not trolling you - ships that have a higher rotation speed have higher angular accelerations too, which makes them twitchy.)
- There's a difference between good control and good enough control - good enough gets you landed. Good lands your raiilgun shots.
- Referring back to point 1 - many pilots, myself included, like to use a response curve to dampen the centre of the joystick. This makes it much less twitchy for small manoeuvres, which helps a great deal with control. Make sure you use the "joystick test axis" (or similar phrase) in the 3rd party software rather than the joystick when mapping, or you'll map the real axis instead of the virtual one.
- vJoy - (creates a virtual joystick for the other programs to feed your joystick events into)
- Joystick Curves (a simple response curve utility. Information on how to set it up here.
- Joystick Gremlin (more complex; similar functionality to TARGET)
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I'll admit - I was shocked at how hard it was to learn FA/Off, and I'm FAR from proficient yet. I'll confess to a certain conceit - when you used to fly helicopters for a living (most commonly the Jetranger), you have REALLY quiet hands on the stick. I expected to pick FA/Off up easily as a result.
Hehe - THAT was a mistake, and I learned my lesson fast. It doesn't help that my little joystick is a Logitech cheapo with a dead zone the size of Toronto and randomly wanders more than a drunk in a hedge maze.
My personal training regimen - aside from what Orodruin suggests, which is excellent - was to enter an Easy REZ and just follow the cop ships around. FA off, try to stay with the group in terms of heading, speed and orientation - try to fly in formation with one of the cops. No combat, THEY did that and provided a challenge as they went after some poor sod's keister.
It was bloody hard at first, but in general (when they're not going pit-bull on some hapless lawless dude) they follow a regular patrol pattern that gives good practice. As skills increase, I started following faster, more manoeuverable ships, and that's about the level I'm at now. More practice and a better stick, and I'll get there.
Cheers!
Hehe - THAT was a mistake, and I learned my lesson fast. It doesn't help that my little joystick is a Logitech cheapo with a dead zone the size of Toronto and randomly wanders more than a drunk in a hedge maze.
My personal training regimen - aside from what Orodruin suggests, which is excellent - was to enter an Easy REZ and just follow the cop ships around. FA off, try to stay with the group in terms of heading, speed and orientation - try to fly in formation with one of the cops. No combat, THEY did that and provided a challenge as they went after some poor sod's keister.
It was bloody hard at first, but in general (when they're not going pit-bull on some hapless lawless dude) they follow a regular patrol pattern that gives good practice. As skills increase, I started following faster, more manoeuverable ships, and that's about the level I'm at now. More practice and a better stick, and I'll get there.
Cheers!
Deleted member 121570
D
No, not as a brake
I'm not using it to decelerate at all.I'm using it for 2 reasons. Firstly to limit my boost speed whilst retaining boosted lateral/vertical thrusters to accelerate turns, and secondly to act as a speed 'hold' through the boost phase. This allows me to feather it for specific moments of extra vectored thrust to turn even tighter. I have the scoop set to hold for this exact purpose.
So, for example: Boost and immediate scoop / hold to keep the speed <600. This'll keep distance travelled lower and stop a wide arc turn. Roll and pitch for a 180 turn, releasing scoop for a fraction of a second during the turn past the apex whilst also holding vert thrust into the curve. That'll throw the extra thrust into the vert and tighten it up. Hold scoop again to limit the boost running away and widening the arc, but release it again once 180 completed to use the dregs of the boost to accelerate back on the new vector, 180 from where I started.
That's a very roundabout way of saying "I'm using it as a brake" though.No, not as a brake
I'm using it for 2 reasons. Firstly to limit my boost speed whilst retaining boosted lateral/vertical thrusters to accelerate turns, and secondly to act as a speed 'hold' through the boost phase. This allows me to feather it for specific moments of extra vectored thrust to turn even tighter. I have the scoop set to hold for this exact purpose.
So, for example: Boost and immediate scoop / hold to keep the speed <600. This'll keep distance travelled lower and stop a wide arc turn. Roll and pitch for a 180 turn, releasing scoop for a fraction of a second during the turn past the apex whilst also holding vert thrust into the curve. That'll throw the extra thrust into the vert and tighten it up. Hold scoop again to limit the boost running away and widening the arc, but release it again once 180 completed to use the dregs of the boost to accelerate back on the new vector, 180 from where I started.
(in all seriousness, though, that a very ingenious technique)
Deleted member 121570
D
That's a very roundabout way of saying "I'm using it as a brake" though.
(in all seriousness, though, that a very ingenious technique)
Well...not really. A brake decelerates you. I'm not using to slow down
I'm using it to not go fast, so fast, and to get bursts of fast when I want em!
McLaren used an extra brake pedal to go faster.Well...not really. A brake decelerates you. I'm not using to slow down
I'm using it to not go fast, so fast, and to get bursts of fast when I want em!
"I'm not using it to slow down. I'm using it to not go fast." -CMDR Sanderling, 3306
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Deleted member 121570
D
I guess acceleration and deceleration mean different things to you guys.
I just race
I just race
I'm just here to have fun with words.I guess acceleration and deceleration mean different things to you guys.
I just race
If it makes you accelerate slower than you normally would under the same power - i.e. reducing the final kinetic energy of your ship compared to a situation where you didn't use it - I'm still calling it a brake.
Acceleration a change in velocity caused by an applied force.I guess acceleration and deceleration mean different things to you guys.
I just race
Deceleration a change in velocity caused by an applied force.
Deleted member 121570
D
Lol, this is pretty funny
In an attempt to put the matter to rest without making myself look even more of an idiot, I'll try and explain myself a bit better.
In the vid that somebody else posted of me flying the Okinura time trial, when someone else asked if I was using the scoop as a brake, and the answer someone else gave was..
They were wrong, imo. And I figured...well, seeing as it was me actually flying in that vid...I could try to describe it.
So I'm deploying the scoop immediately after boosting, but I'm not using it to apply a force that slows me down back towards being stopped.
I'm using it to cut boost output, stop accelerating and hold a fixed speed.
If I retract the scoop still during that boost....I'm using it for burst gains in speed, allowing power output back, so accelerating still. It's an acceleration rate control based on allowing or denying the fixed power output from the boost.
At no point do I ever use the scoop to actually reduce my speed from where it's at. Like...for deceleration effects, eg. negative change, reducing velocity, downwards to zero, 'braking'. I'm using it only to vary rate of acceleration to max. It's got no use outside of the boost window, other than actually scooping cargo
Now, I admit I might be wrong on the technicalities, but I'd been working on the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that a lower rate of acceleration, or absence of it, still isn't deceleration.
I reckon the key point in that quote was actually the bit that got trimmed out: ...to not go fast, so fast....
It's like easing back on the gas to accelerate slower or maintain a speed, rather than actually hitting the brake pedal to go slower. It's just that the effect of it is hard. It acts like a cap, a fixed limiter, like a power cut to the engine until you're ready to let it rip.
Honestly though, call it what you like
I was just attempting to clarify what I was doing in a way that folks could also use, without anyone getting the idea it's an emergency brake.
It's definitely not the best technique to actually slow down
In an attempt to put the matter to rest without making myself look even more of an idiot, I'll try and explain myself a bit better.
In the vid that somebody else posted of me flying the Okinura time trial, when someone else asked if I was using the scoop as a brake, and the answer someone else gave was..
They were wrong, imo. And I figured...well, seeing as it was me actually flying in that vid...I could try to describe it.
So I'm deploying the scoop immediately after boosting, but I'm not using it to apply a force that slows me down back towards being stopped.
I'm using it to cut boost output, stop accelerating and hold a fixed speed.
If I retract the scoop still during that boost....I'm using it for burst gains in speed, allowing power output back, so accelerating still. It's an acceleration rate control based on allowing or denying the fixed power output from the boost.
At no point do I ever use the scoop to actually reduce my speed from where it's at. Like...for deceleration effects, eg. negative change, reducing velocity, downwards to zero, 'braking'. I'm using it only to vary rate of acceleration to max. It's got no use outside of the boost window, other than actually scooping cargo
Now, I admit I might be wrong on the technicalities, but I'd been working on the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that a lower rate of acceleration, or absence of it, still isn't deceleration.
I reckon the key point in that quote was actually the bit that got trimmed out: ...to not go fast, so fast....
It's like easing back on the gas to accelerate slower or maintain a speed, rather than actually hitting the brake pedal to go slower. It's just that the effect of it is hard. It acts like a cap, a fixed limiter, like a power cut to the engine until you're ready to let it rip.
Honestly though, call it what you like
I was just attempting to clarify what I was doing in a way that folks could also use, without anyone getting the idea it's an emergency brake.
It's definitely not the best technique to actually slow down
You are not making yourself look like an idiot, of course. We know exactly what you mean.Lol, this is pretty funny
In an attempt to put the matter to rest without making myself look even more of an idiot, I'll try and explain myself a bit better.
In the vid that somebody else posted of me flying the Okinura time trial, when someone else asked if I was using the scoop as a brake, and the answer someone else gave was..
They were wrong, imo. And I figured...well, seeing as it was me actually flying in that vid...I could try to describe it.
So I'm deploying the scoop immediately after boosting, but I'm not using it to apply a force that slows me down back towards being stopped.
I'm using it to cut boost output, stop accelerating and hold a fixed speed.
If I retract the scoop still during that boost....I'm using it for burst gains in speed, allowing power output back, so accelerating still. It's an acceleration rate control based on allowing or denying the fixed power output from the boost.
At no point do I ever use the scoop to actually reduce my speed from where it's at. Like...for deceleration effects, eg. negative change, reducing velocity, downwards to zero, 'braking'. I'm using it only to vary rate of acceleration to max. It's got no use outside of the boost window, other than actually scooping cargo
Now, I admit I might be wrong on the technicalities, but I'd been working on the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that a lower rate of acceleration, or absence of it, still isn't deceleration.
I reckon the key point in that quote was actually the bit that got trimmed out: ...to not go fast, so fast....
It's like easing back on the gas to accelerate slower or maintain a speed, rather than actually hitting the brake pedal to go slower. It's just that the effect of it is hard. It acts like a cap, a fixed limiter, like a power cut to the engine until you're ready to let it rip.
Honestly though, call it what you like
I was just attempting to clarify what I was doing in a way that folks could also use, without anyone getting the idea it's an emergency brake.
It's definitely not the best technique to actually slow down
But this was exactly my point - boost isn't a gas pedal. It's a "floor it" button, so if you want to accelerate to a lower than max speed, you apply a bit of a "handbrake", which isn't strong enough to actually slow you down, but it does prevent you from going "too fast".
No I'm going to shut up before you block me.
![[VR] Orodruin](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/237/237188.jpg?1614840532){kind=avatar}
I kind of agree with this. It is like flooring the gas pedal and pushing the break pedal at the same time. Sure, the car is still speeding up or at least not decelerating, but the effect of the break is still to break.
Regardless, I think we can all agree that this is all a quibble about terminology and we are all agreeing on the final result ... Now I just have to learn to fly like that ... I mean, I consider myself competent enough to fly FA off exclusively, but that is something else.
Yes, this is the important part.
Like I said, I'm just playing with words - I'd like to say "for comedic effect" but I suspect it didn't really entertain anybody but myself.
Deleted member 121570
D
We are all in accord
Interestingly (to me, at least!) ; It even works a bit differently between open space and on planet surfaces where gravity's a factor too.
For example; on a planet at full speed, if you're going faster than your non-boosted thrust cap (so 745+ in that same Viper), are FAoff and your ship's in any form of descent (negative on the vertical speed indicator on the right of your HUD) - you will not be able to decelerate at all.
Deploying the scoop under those conditions has zero effect. It certainly won't slow you down. Only getting the ship climbing will do that, and the scoop, by limiting acceleration, can potentially hinder you slowing down.
So for applied example; if you're FAoff going 800+, dropping vertically too at say 5m/s, and you deploy the scoop without any thrust applied at all....it does nothing.
However, if you're wanting to make fast turns around terrain down there (and assuming you're actually interested in learning this racing stuff), you can still boost, drop scoop at say 780, apply lateral thrust to start a turn, over-rotate the ship further than vector created by that lat thrust, and then lift the scoop for the boost to take you from that 780 up to the 900+ on the line the ship's facing, going beyond the lateral thrust turning capability. It's like using turbo lag in a drift turn
If you wanted to stop completely, you could boost flip the ship 180, apply the scoop once the ship's climbing and release scoop once it's facing countervector to let the boost brake you, then re-apply scoop to not accelerate again past your speed cap. This'll keep you slow enough that you can then apply counter thrust after boost's ended back down to near zero (even in descent) and complete the braking move.
It's one reason FAoff is so great for racing on planets. You don't need to boost constantly to maintain max speed....you just need 1m/s descent, and your ship will just cruise constantly. It also means you can use control over your vertical climb/descent to really fundamentally affect how agile and how fast you are.
Anyone racing you FAon has to constantly boost to keep up, emptying distro and throwing timings out the window, whilst you've got a full capacitor and can wait for the turn to boost at your leisure. And using stuff previously described, you can turn faster and tighter too. It's the slow/tight turns that are the main challenge FAoff vs FAon.
Interestingly (to me, at least!) ; It even works a bit differently between open space and on planet surfaces where gravity's a factor too.
For example; on a planet at full speed, if you're going faster than your non-boosted thrust cap (so 745+ in that same Viper), are FAoff and your ship's in any form of descent (negative on the vertical speed indicator on the right of your HUD) - you will not be able to decelerate at all.
Deploying the scoop under those conditions has zero effect. It certainly won't slow you down. Only getting the ship climbing will do that, and the scoop, by limiting acceleration, can potentially hinder you slowing down.
So for applied example; if you're FAoff going 800+, dropping vertically too at say 5m/s, and you deploy the scoop without any thrust applied at all....it does nothing.
However, if you're wanting to make fast turns around terrain down there (and assuming you're actually interested in learning this racing stuff), you can still boost, drop scoop at say 780, apply lateral thrust to start a turn, over-rotate the ship further than vector created by that lat thrust, and then lift the scoop for the boost to take you from that 780 up to the 900+ on the line the ship's facing, going beyond the lateral thrust turning capability. It's like using turbo lag in a drift turn
If you wanted to stop completely, you could boost flip the ship 180, apply the scoop once the ship's climbing and release scoop once it's facing countervector to let the boost brake you, then re-apply scoop to not accelerate again past your speed cap. This'll keep you slow enough that you can then apply counter thrust after boost's ended back down to near zero (even in descent) and complete the braking move.
It's one reason FAoff is so great for racing on planets. You don't need to boost constantly to maintain max speed....you just need 1m/s descent, and your ship will just cruise constantly. It also means you can use control over your vertical climb/descent to really fundamentally affect how agile and how fast you are.
Anyone racing you FAon has to constantly boost to keep up, emptying distro and throwing timings out the window, whilst you've got a full capacitor and can wait for the turn to boost at your leisure. And using stuff previously described, you can turn faster and tighter too. It's the slow/tight turns that are the main challenge FAoff vs FAon.
I lost count of the number of times I messed-up in my Mini whilst learning to "heel and toe".
I'm a big fan of small sports cars. Had a Renault 5 Turbo, couple of Minis, MX-5 and now the BRZ.
I lost count of the number of times somebody told me that the key to heel'n'toeing are the right shoes.
But over the years I've accepted the fact that my feet are simply too big and clumsy.
edit: Also, I think we've properly destroyed this thread. Who's gonna apologize to Tyres?
Deleted member 121570
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Yep, that's race build, although it won't permaboost. This one might suit you better for agility: https://s.orbis.zone/7kgu
Sorry @Tyres O'Flaherty for the thread derailment and falling down the "applied FA-off" rabbit hole!!