FA-on IS slowing you down!

[Madrax573]

One of our group a few years ago did a load of work figuring out ship base agility stats for thrusters and boosts etc. I have decided to do some further work on this and built up max speed setups for each ship and directly measure their accelerations and decelerations etc. And I was doing all of this FA-off, of course, to get direct un-interfered thruster responses from that damn computer

And in my testing I thought, for the heck of it, to see if the old thoughts on FA-on being able to brake you quicker than FA-off....

TDLR: It doesn't and in my measurements is quite a bit slower braking you than FA-off.

Data was captured by videoing myself going from 0 to max speed in various ships and measuring the time frame throughout the process to get the accel/decel curve for each axis (fwd/rev, lateral, vertical) and measuring the max accel/decel for each. I also measured the total time taken from 0 to max and back again to get an average accel/decel. The video was measured down to the frame using video editing software I use for highspeed analysis for work.

I found that the FA slows you down in a couple of ways.
The first is that it restricts your max vertical, lateral and reverse speeds.
Reverse is restricted to 80% of max speed.
Lateral & Vertical speed is restricted to 60% of max speed.

Ouch!

Secondly when measuring the total time to go from 0 to max and back to zero it added time to achieve this...
for example in a max speed adder.
FA-off from 0 to max speed took - 10.4s
FA-off from max speed to 0 took - 10.5s

FA-on from o to max speed took - 11.7s : an extra 1.3s!!!
FA-on from max speed to 0 took - 12.9s : an extra 2.4s!!!

Now the max accel and decel was the same FA-off v FA-on but there was a change in the profile with FA-on where it seemed to take a lot longer to figure out if you were actually wanting to go/brake at full thrust...

So like I said in the title.

FA-on IS slowing you down!

 

[Viscera]

And....

(this is important because...)

My own view: fa off slows me down. If i want to travel from a to b, and i turn fa to off, it will take me a lot longer to do this than if i leave fa on. (never would be the actual time in fa off for me)

Therefore, fa off is slowing me down.

It however, does not slow you down.

Fa on slows some people down should be the statement here. It does not slow me down.

 

[Osashes]

And....

(this is important because...)

It's important because some of us like to go FAST! (and stop fast)

 

[Madrax573]

And....

(this is important because...)

My own view: fa off slows me down. If i want to travel from a to b, and i turn fa to off, it will take me a lot longer to do this than if i leave fa on. (never would be the actual time in fa off for me)

Therefore, fa off is slowing me down.

It however, does not slow you down.

Fa on slows some people down should be the statement here. It does not slow me down.

By it's very nature it is slowing you down every time you decide to go faster or slower... the start of the maneuver (speed up and slow down) is where it affects it the most... So yes it IS slowing you any everyone who uses it down

 

[CMDR Rabbit]

By it's very nature it is slowing you down every time you decide to go faster or slower... the start of the maneuver (speed up and slow down) is where it affects it the most... So yes it IS slowing you any everyone who uses it down

Maybe he means that, like me, FA Off is slower to get from A to B because i'm gonna be spinning end-over-end somewhere out around point C.

So FA-Off is faster for those who can control their ship with FA-off. Not so much for those of us that can't

 

[Viscera]

In some measurements yes, and in others no...

If the measurements are combined together into a whole, then no.

But thats just me.

Others will get different results.

(fa off to me is just a series of cart wheels, moving in some random direction... at some random speed... there simply is no control involved, and tbe fastest thing about it is how quickly it makes me want to vomit)

 

[Vandaahl]

FA is able to operate the individual thrusters individually, something we can't do ourselves. Even if you're going straight it is still correcting your (apparently still there) non-existing movements, and thus slowing you down (I think). FA off going forward really only operates the thruster used to go that way.

It has its uses though.

 

[Madrax573]

FA is able to operate the individual thrusters individually, something we can't do ourselves. Even if you're going straight it is still correcting your (apparently still there) non-existing movements, and thus slowing you down (I think). FA off going forward really only operates the thruster used to go that way.

It has its uses though.

The tests I conducted to measure were direct line only with digital input so no extra lat/vert inputs able to skew the data... as direct a comparison as you can get.

 

[Vandaahl]

The tests I conducted to measure were direct line only with digital input so no extra lat/vert inputs able to skew the data... as direct a comparison as you can get.

I was wondering if you took that into account, hence my remark. It would still be cool if you could see no other thrusters firing though
Its not always obvious, but thrusters only seem to get to a 100% idle when the whole ship is stationary.

Anyway, it matters not. It would only be an explanation, the conclusion still stands

 

[Alex Korr V]

On top of this speed decreases slowly after boost if FA off, and rapidly if FA on.

I'd prefer for speed not to decrease at all after boost if FA off for sake of newtonian mechanics, but gameplay be gameplay.

 

[Madrax573]

Maybe he means that, like me, FA Off is slower to get from A to B because i'm gonna be spinning end-over-end somewhere out around point C.

So FA-Off is faster for those who can control their ship with FA-off. Not so much for those of us that can't

In some measurements yes, and in others no...

If the measurements are combined together into a whole, then no.

But thats just me.

Others will get different results.

(fa off to me is just a series of cart wheels, moving in some random direction... at some random speed... there simply is no control involved, and tbe fastest thing about it is how quickly it makes me want to vomit)

These have nothing what so ever to do with the mechanical way in which FA-on slows you down... The tests were conducted so that 'skill' isn't a factor and the simple mechanics were measured...

How you fly is entirely up to you and I'm not saying Fly FA-off, even though I do advocate for it, but rather I'm just pointing out that you ARE being restricted by the FA being on in all your maneuvers regardless of your 'skill' at flying...

 

[ilo]

Pretty sure the FA on/off speed differencies were brought up to the table before. Most of us FA-off players also learned to use more thrusters while maneouvering than just straight up/down or fwd/back. I myself pitch down to brake using both backwards and down thrusters quite often, and never did that with FA-on.

However.. FA off first achievement is going from a to b, probably looking in all directions instead of your travel speed vector, and with the rotation, aligment, correction times in place it is different. You said it yourself: simplistic mechanics. We don't fly with simple directions, do we?

In non-combat situations, moving backwards is as bad for fa-on players that it is for fa-off, there are not mirrors.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

FA-off from max speed to 0 took - 10.5s
...
FA-on from max speed to 0 took - 12.9s : an extra 2.4s!!!

So, technically - FA on does not slow me down (when I want to be slowed down).

Others will get different results.

As far as I read it, the entire point was to remove piloting skill and just look at thruster efficiency in changing the velocity.

Becoming proficient in FA off is also only a matter of practice. It is not much harder than flying FA on once you learn a few basic skills such as quieting your ship and not overcorrecting with your inputs.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

In non-combat situations, moving backwards is as bad for fa-on players that it is for fa-off, there are not mirrors.

Moving backwards in FA on has a much more stringent speed limit though and as such is much more restricting, particularly in a reverski situation such as flaking down a Thargon swarm. I have lost count of the number of times I have seen AXI recruits mishandle the swarm by not being in FA off during reverski - leading to the interceptor catching up way faster and giving the player no time to actually take out the swarm.

 

[Ser Xav]

Maybe he means that, like me, FA Off is slower to get from A to B because i'm gonna be spinning end-over-end somewhere out around point C.

So FA-Off is faster for those who can control their ship with FA-off. Not so much for those of us that can't

It’s funny, this sort of describes what FA On feels like once you’re proficient at FA Off. It feels like you’re having body convulsions whilst your shoelaces are tied together, as the flight computer feels so intrusive with FA on.

But as others have pointed out, this work by @Madrax573 is simply a piece of analysis, it’s not about pilot skill. I read this simply as a factual breakdown of the mechanics and characteristics of the ‘simulation’. Great piece of work sir.

 

[Jukelo]

Secondly when measuring the total time to go from 0 to max and back to zero it added time to achieve this...
for example in a max speed adder.
FA-off from 0 to max speed took - 10.4s
FA-off from max speed to 0 took - 10.5s

FA-on from o to max speed took - 11.7s : an extra 1.3s!!!
FA-on from max speed to 0 took - 12.9s : an extra 2.4s!!!

Were you using the throttle with FA-on, and thrusting directly in FA-off? When using the throttle your ship computer will reduce the thrust progressively as you near your target velocity. This doesn't happen if you use your thrust keys directly.

 

[Madrax573]

Were you using the throttle with FA-on, and thrusting directly in FA-off? When using the throttle your ship computer will reduce the thrust progressively as you near your target velocity. This doesn't happen if you use your thrust keys directly.

Using Thrust keys directly.

The effect you described worked exactly the same regardless whether I used thrust directly or set 100% throttle....

 

[Captain N]

The real interesting effect comes when you turn your ship perpendicular to the direction of travel and then turn FA on.

 

[Madrax573]

turn FA on.

Ewwww...

 

[Madrax573]

I wonder.... are we going to get frictionless boots modifier so we can go FA-off (Feet assist off) in Odyssey?!?!

Imagine a bunch of CMDR's hoofing around a settlement like ice dancers that has had too much energy drink