Community Event / Creation Fangs: a short Elite: Dangeous noir-style graphic novel

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KiDra had some valid questions and commentary that he asked of the artist, and the artist responded. There is no malice between them, if you read their texts carefully.

I, as an art student through many years of college (and before), was subject to peer review. We would put our work up on the wall, and our fellow students would weigh in with their opinions and points of view. It is a learning experience. You discover how someone else interprets your work so you can see if your work has the desired effect. You listen to other points of view, options, and ways to achieve what you're doing with your art. Such as is the medium correct? Does the composition make sense? etc.

This is all KiDra did in his post, and our artist, lee_ars, was able to respond and he gained insight.
 
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Really not so much a personal attack, or even malice, as it is a general statement in reply to a line of thought expressed by KiDra. I tried to walk the fence, apparently went too far, I'll own up for that one. My bad.

But I stand by it. It's not just that I don't agree, it's that I felt a level of passive-aggression and ignorance on the topic, directed at Mr. Lee and his work. Maybe I'm wrong, hope I am. I just don't have much patience for people who talk like they know it all, criticize and make off the wall suggestions, when they're ignorant of the subject matter.

"So far the comic consists of ships, ships and more ships. I am missing a character to identify with and a situation or event that sparks interest to continue reading. Where is the mystery and foreshadowing to hookup the reader? I assume we are seeing the world through the eyes of some sort of main character and it is his thoughts represented in the speech bubbles. If so, the protagonist appears to be rambling for seven pages straight.

Have you planned an actual plot and twists? Do you have characters that differ in their archetypes? Do you know where you want to go with your comic? Up until now there is not enough meat to even give in depth feedback and to be honest, I had ingored the comic after page 3 and forgotten about it, would Frontier not tweet about it with every new post."
Translation: I don't get it.

"Maybe you turn this personal impression of mine around with the next post and that would be awesome." Translation: My idea is the best.

"I ask you to take it as an individual's opinion on your project that may differ greatly from the impression others got." <-- Feigned Humility.

I'm sorry guys, I'm allergic to negativity. Criticism is one thing - big fan of it actually, helps us grow, presents new ideas, hopefully resulting in better product - this ain't that. So yeah, I'll call that out any day of the week. Sorry to come on so strongly, but there you have it.

Also, sorry about the goat comment. It was out of line - I'm sure they're wined and dined first. ;)
 
I'm glad we could clean and clear this up.

Lee has some great work, and I enjoy seeing my Facebook feed tell me that he has another strip ready. At first, I thought it would be a graphic novel with a (or several) main characters, but I saw early on that each stood independently. That doesn't negate KiDra's question though, as it was a good one. And, with time, Lee may decide on an overall plot to flow through.

I think he's going about it the right way though. Experiment, get better, listen to constructive criticism and decide on your ultimate path. If it means a collaboration with someone who can draw, then so be it.

Or..... Maybe he needs a few real life Commanders who like to dress up/cosplay (see: Kate Russell) and Noir those photographs. It's very easy to cut out a photo of a person and layer it on top of the Elite: Dangerous screenshot and then apply the effect. I bet with enough Google-fu, he could come up with poses he'd want to use to experiment with initially, and then eventually get a few of us to fill in roles.

It's hard to interpret the written word, and most times we take the written word in emails and forum posts in a negative light. I've followed KiDra long enough on the forums (over a year now?) that I know his intent. He's one of the good guys.

Lee, hope this hasn't waylaid your thread too bad and we get back to enjoying the next strip. And if you think you may want to try out my idea of pics of real people, let us know. There's a lot of us here in the Community Creation forum who would love to help out.
 
Alternative option: use a different virtual world to take screenshots with people, then "noir" those. Preferrably one that already has established SciFi environments... Incilico in SL comes to mind, as well as several other SciFi RP areas there.
 
Lee, hope this hasn't waylaid your thread too bad and we get back to enjoying the next strip. And if you think you may want to try out my idea of pics of real people, let us know. There's a lot of us here in the Community Creation forum who would love to help out.
Thanks, Eric & David & everyone. It's not a bad idea at all. I've got the next couple of Fangs strips planned out already: 08 will focus on smuggling and is tentatively titled "Oh, the Places You'll Go!" and I've got some ideas about 09 being a treatise on risk, reward, and fear....though I'll be at E3 in a couple of weeks and Frontier has promised me an extensive interview, so maybe 09 will wind up being about Thargoids if they spill anything. But after that? Community assistance might be a good idea!

And I appreciate everyone's kind words about the strip. It's fun. If it quits being fun, I'll quit doing it, but it's still fun so I'm still doing it :)
 
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Seems I missed quite a bit over the last two days.

Really not so much a personal attack, or even malice, as it is a general statement in reply to a line of thought expressed by KiDra. I tried to walk the fence, apparently went too far, I'll own up for that one. My bad.

Fangs captures the essence of the Elite universe in glimpses and moments that any player can jump in, experience, and feel connected to - not story arcs, character progressions and plot twists. If that's what you're looking for, then allow me to assist: http://bfy.tw/3fS

Davidthehall, For the record, that link you provided in your post is leading to a "Let Me Google That for You" search for "comic book stores near my dumbass" and I believe you can agree that, no matter how much good will, that is hard to not regard as personal attack or malice.

It is true that text-only communication is a fragile thing. I read somewhere that usually 40% of a text-message is misinterpreted. I never had any malicious intent with my criticism, so maybe some clearing up and context can help here:

I am no native speaker and I do not like beating around the bush. Thus I try to word my responses precise and to the point, but certainly not to appear condescending or negative. I am not in a position to act like that and I am no authority.

My opinion about writing and arts stems from my background in creative online-communities with many artists and what I could observe there. For years I volunteered as a high ranked member of moderation staff on one community with over 200k users. Many of my friends work in the creative business and I am not unaware of the processes there. For some time now I am also dipping my toes into writing fiction as a hobby and thus am learning the rules for good fiction writing myself. It is the reason why I would indeed notice some mistakes in plot building.

So, I am well aware of the challenges it takes to write a good story and how tiresome it can be. Draft scenes, plan plot, write, rewrite, gather feedback, rewrite, proofread, maybe start over etc. It is also my experience, that simple positive feedback of the "wow, this is awesome"-kind may be nice for the ego, but is ultimately useless. It is quickly posted, does not refer to content in any way and frankly, I have seen such comments on really poor works (grammar, structure ... neglected basics) and as a result I can hardly take them serious. Lee's work is not poor! I am not referring to his work with this statement and everything I say in the following paragraphs is spoken in general. I want to reply to Lee and his work at the end of this post.

For your interpretations of my post:
"So far the comic consists of ships, ships [...] with every new post." Translation: I don't get it.
I was mislead by the title “Graphic Novel”

"Maybe you turn this personal impression of mine around with the next post and that would be awesome." Translation: My idea is the best.
I meant to say I would be glad to be proven wrong in my impression, as I do not wish to be right for the sake of being right.

"I ask you to take it as an individual's opinion on your project that may differ greatly from the impression others got." <-- Feigned Humility.
It was not feigned at all.

For the 2 major points you listed, Davidthehall: A fan creation is no different a creation than any other and "a labor of love" as in "having an emotion for what you create" is the base on which every good story is build. Without an emotion that you want to express and put in your work, it can at best turn out mediocre. The reason to write as a hobby is emotion that wants to be expressed. It is common ground, not the special attribute of a few creative minds. Hobby writers and artists do it for their content in their time and professionals do it as a job. Thus I find your second paragraph of your second major point to be an apples and oranges comparison. I have much respect for sole artists that manage to create a good story, be it visual or solely written, but the reason you need so many specialists in a studio is the money business and deadlines. That is a different context.

Whether a work is free or paid content only affects the "right" of the reader/customer to complain ("I paid for this nonsense?!"). A free work does not have more artistic value than the same work with a price tag. Of course I know what it feels like when you are committed to your content and it goes neglected or gets you less positive feedback than you hoped for, but that a work is put out for free does not make the reader owe the author. It would be nice if it was any different, but I also had to grow out of that mindset.

In general I hold no grudge and I hope I could change the impression you got a bit. I would not mind if we all met one day in ED and went hunting bounties as one wing to enjoy the game that brought us all here. So, if you agree, let's draw a line under this misunderstanding.

Lee, thank you for your reply and for clearing up the misunderstanding. The term "graphic novel" was misleading me and as you aim for mood pieces and not a full story, you are doing a good job. In that context my critique no longer applies.

If you wanted to, you could clean the area around warning messages on the hud a bit to remove the white "splotch-area" around them, but that is a matter of taste.

If you want to turn Fangs into a coherent story plot one day, allow me to make a suggestion:

Ultimately you do not need figures to have characters in your story. Characters only must be distinguishable, e.g. by their way of talking, the ship they are flying (unique decals, maybe?) and unique behavior quirks and structures. You would not necessarily need to show a figure to achieve that. I could imagine it to be very interesting if we never saw the humans in the ships and you still would pull off a good plot.

Finally I have to thank Erik for taking up the cudgels for me. It is much appreciated and not to be taken for granted.
 
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Heya!

I'm a bit late to chime in, but I wanted to say that I think turning Elite into a graphic novel is a great idea! If I may be so bold as to suggest something, I do believe Kidra has a point when he finds a certain lack of actual story to be something that's preventing this from reaching a wider audience, especially people who are not yet fans of Elite.

It looks really cool, no matter whether it was done via screenshots. But the main thing I'd love to see in the future is an actual plot. Tell a story.

Now, I know this is a fan effort and such, but really, should that argument be brought up automatically? Is it fair to respond to a specific, and I believe constructive criticism by pointing at the price sticker that says "FREE" ?

As it is now, this is something where I go "cool", and then close the tab. Not out of spite or disdain, mind you, but simply because it's the story that brings people back, not the visuals. You may well say, the way it's now works for you, and leave it at that - that's up to you of course! But I don't think there can be any debate about whether Fangs currently has a plot (it doesn't) and whether having a plot would considerably add to it (yes!).

So yes, please make more! But please also consider telling a story with it. You don't necessarily need to depict humans to do so, though I think the idea about taking photographs and working them into the comic could result in something really awesome. But again, the story is what brings people back. I completely agree with Kidra there and whether or not I and many others will enjoy this beyond the initial novelty appeal will mostly depend on that.
 
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Speaking of which, new Fangs! Fangs 08 - Home, Home on the Fence (changed the tentative title from the last post—things took a bit of a different direction than I intended and this worked better)

A Fangs comic is like a conversation you half-overhear in a bar, where you catch a sense of something one person is telling another. It describes a mood, paints a picture, even gives insight into the how and the why of how some people play the game, but there's not really any overarching narrative. It's meant more to evoke than explain. And lacking art skills, I lean as hard as I can on writing (which I like to think I'm pretty good at, considering I do it for a living). That's why some comics have fancy-pants highbrow quotes and some are stuffed with pop culture references. A picture can mean a million things, but a picture with a few choice words can laser-focus in on an exact mood or feeling. And I'm trying with each Fangs panel to pull a specific feeling out of the reader, or to make them think, "Wow, yes, I have been in that exact situation and I remember exactly what it felt like!"

But....yeah, that only goes so far, and there's only so many noir-style conversations you can overhear at the Space Bar. I'm going to get to a point soon where I'll need to decide what I want to do with Fangs. Ten comics, more or less, would be enough to wrap up a first "edition"—a chronicle of viewpoints and encounters in the Elite Dangerous universe. Maybe once I hit that point, it'll be time to change gears and try to tell an actual, you know, story. The thing that makes me reticent is that I feel like I've got something enjoyable and reasonably unique in the way Fangs is now.

So maybe we're getting to the end of "Issue 01", and "Issue 02" will focus in on a character. The trap there—all respect to web comics everywhere!—is not to have a character who is Tropey McTroperson. The Pirate With the Heart of Gold, or the Soldier With the Dark Past, or the Merc With the Moral Code, or, you know, any of them. How to make an interesting, believable, followable character who can have a believable journey in the Elite universe without falling back on standard storytelling conventions? I've read too much Gene Wolfe and C.J. Cherryh to be satisfied with my own weak storytelling sauce.

I think that's one of the biggest reasons why Fangs is the way it is—it's freeing to not have to work so hard on a good standout narrative. I mean...I already have a day job!

But, no, there hasn't been anything said in this thread that I've found upsetting or hurtful—this is all excellent criticism and I appreciate all of it, and I absolutely am listening!
 
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This is great art, and good, simple story telling. You, sir, are a troubadour of the finest kind.

PS My Anaconda is named "The Helping Hand". Check the posts in my signature as to why.
 
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