FAO Frontier: Increase trading dividends or introduce in game money transfer

[Flavourless]

Whatever happend to "blazing your own trail"? You know....Elite.
It is supposed to be a cut-throat galaxy but all of the stuff in this thread is about making it a haven for philanthropists. Sort of Elite: Benefit program.

No form of credit transfer is a "needed functionality". At best it derives a player of the best part of the gameplay (when you are poor), and at worst increases the already high enough incidences of short-cutting cheats.

 

[rootsrat]

Whatever happend to "blazing your own trail"? You know....Elite.
It is supposed to be a cut-throat galaxy but all of the stuff in this thread is about making it a haven for philanthropists. Sort of Elite: Benefit program.

No form of credit transfer is a "needed functionality". At best it derives a player of the best part of the gameplay (when you are poor), and at worst increases the already high enough incidences of short-cutting cheats.

So please explain to me how am I supposed to blaze my own trail as a mercenary hired to protect traders if the traders can't pay me?

Did you even read the thread? It isn't really about the money transfer.

And in all the honesty I don't see a slight connection between blazing our own trail and transferring money between players.

Also, you are saying that a player should not make any money, because the best part of the game is being poor??? Well maybe to you it is, but myself and the majority of the people commenting this thread have an opposite opinion. This is a very subjective matter and you can't simply assume that what's good for you will be good for others.

Nobody forces you to use the requested functionality, why deprive people of something that you won't even use?

 

[GammaPaladin]

It would be finding my account naked because the credits were stolen ? Goldsellers don't farm gold, they steal it from people having poor computer security (mainly, by phishing). The days of manual gold farming or even botting are long gone.

The second consequence is, FD's support would be swamped by restoration requests. Other games do them, it'd be expected. they don't have the manpower to do it, and they don't have the experience to automate the process.

Err no. This is quite uncommon. It happens, but it happens with or without in game credit sales. Much like RMT farmers can sell their own accounts whether you allow credit transfers or not, they can also steal your account and sell that... so... yeah. Regardless,gold farming DOES exist, and happens because in places like China the money you make for the time put in is enough to live on.

And the phishing and hacking groups will continue to focus on bigger fish, like WoW, so a more obscure game like Elite is relatively safe.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

To throw my 2p into the mix:

Im fully against in game credit transfers. I do not want to see a day 1 player walk into a 120mil FDL when others have spent weeks and months to work to that stage.
Even if they have a friend with 650mil assets imo they should work together to boost the progression and learning of the new player and not insta-jump them to a higher ship.
That and what everyone else has said.


I do believe however that wing hiring etc should pay decent wages. The way forward for me would be to increase % depending on cargo %.
Say there are 2 Vultures escorting a T9. The Vultures have 0 cargo, the T9 has 500. This is a 500:0:0 ratio and therefore the game assumes the 0T cargo escorts are exactly that and gives the higher possible payout (Whatever Dev's allocate) which comes from the T9's profit.
If the wing is 3 trading anacondas each with 450 ton cargo the ratio becomes 450:450:450 and therefore the game assumes its a trading wing and does not give any profits to the wing members.
This way the trader can pay the % that he/she thinks is reasonable for protection by getting the fighter pilot to adjust the cargo racks that the fighter carries and this doesn't give bonus profits to trading wings.

 

[GammaPaladin]

To throw my 2p into the mix:

Im fully against in game credit transfers. I do not want to see a day 1 player walk into a 120mil FDL when others have spent weeks and months to work to that stage.
Even if they have a friend with 650mil assets imo they should work together to boost the progression and learning of the new player and not insta-jump them to a higher ship.
That and what everyone else has said.


I do believe however that wing hiring etc should pay decent wages. The way forward for me would be to increase % depending on cargo %.
Say there are 2 Vultures escorting a T9. The Vultures have 0 cargo, the T9 has 500. This is a 500:0:0 ratio and therefore the game assumes the 0T cargo escorts are exactly that and gives the higher possible payout (Whatever Dev's allocate) which comes from the T9's profit.
If the wing is 3 trading anacondas each with 450 ton cargo the ratio becomes 450:450:450 and therefore the game assumes its a trading wing and does not give any profits to the wing members.
This way the trader can pay the % that he/she thinks is reasonable for protection by getting the fighter pilot to adjust the cargo racks that the fighter carries and this doesn't give bonus profits to trading wings.

The game shouldn't dictate what I can and can't pay people. If I want to give two escorts 45% of my profits each, that's my business.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

The game shouldn't dictate what I can and can't pay people. If I want to give two escorts 45% of my profits each, that's my business.

I do not disagree. I just think the entire mechanic of getting it to work would be a nightmare.
I mean at current can the trader not simply un-wing before selling cargo and cut out their escorts from profit? How do you define when/where the % profit can be changed. Can I promise 40% of the profits but then change it to 20% just before selling cargo?
Could I give 100% of my profit to the wingman, no because thats not using the game function as intended therefore it is a form of exploit, where does the minimum/maximum payout end? Who decides what is reasonable?

Its quite the minefield to prevent exploiting and generally make it integrate well with the game. I'd prefer Dev control of the profits so that all parties know exactly what they are dealing with when signing up.

 

[M.E.A.T]

Im okay with increasing the trade dividends, but allowing credit transfer might change pirating to just extortion. Why would pirates bother with scooping cargo when they can just ask for credits directly? Anyway, i don't mind extortion either, but i'm pretty sure forum will explode from people crying when it happens.

 

[rootsrat]

To throw my 2p into the mix:

Im fully against in game credit transfers. I do not want to see a day 1 player walk into a 120mil FDL when others have spent weeks and months to work to that stage.
Even if they have a friend with 650mil assets imo they should work together to boost the progression and learning of the new player and not insta-jump them to a higher ship.

I don't understand why some of you guys want to force the way other people should play... What do you really care if a new player gets his shiny FDL on day 1? How is this going to affect your game and the way you play? If someone wants to get a big shiny vessel day 1, let them! Let them get it and find out how wrong they were to skip all the fun and learning the ropes in smaller ships, when they get reduced to space dust in their first USS or fry themselves in the heat of the first start they jump to.

Im okay with increasing the trade dividends, but allowing credit transfer might change pirating to just extortion. Why would pirates bother with scooping cargo when they can just ask for credits directly? Anyway, i don't mind extortion either, but i'm pretty sure forum will explode from people crying when it happens.

To me this is the first reasonable argument against in game credit transfer I read in this thread and you make a valid point Sir. Perhaps a solution to this would be to allow the transfer in Wings only?

Anyway, I am not saying that the credit transfer MSUT be in game. I'd just like to see some way players can compensate other players without resorting to tedious cargo abandon/scoop method.

 

[Iskariot]

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

The ingame money transfer would be the easiest, but as you already stated you will then be inundated by the usual gold farmers from other MMO's selling credits for cash.

I agree with the guy who 'stole' my avatar.

 

[techie33]

Update 1.4

Passengers
Money Transfer

 

[Valethar]

That's something we've been mentioning in one thread or another since the voucher mechanic was introduced, which doesn't take away from Oz's suggestion in the slightest, it just proves further that it's a valid idea that should be given some serious consideration by the Dev team.

I really like the solution proposed by Cmdr Ozmodion (he actually was one of the traders from our yesterday's run):

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

The ingame money transfer would be the easiest, but as you already stated you will then be inundated by the usual gold farmers from other MMO's selling credits for cash.

 

[Cyclop]

Im okay with increasing the trade dividends, but allowing credit transfer might change pirating to just extortion. Why would pirates bother with scooping cargo when they can just ask for credits directly? Anyway, i don't mind extortion either, but i'm pretty sure forum will explode from people crying when it happens.

I am all for transferring credits between players, and to avoid pirates asking for credits, you could make it so that you would have to be docked to the same station or outpost as the other part to be able to transfer credits between two players.

 

[damastes]

Another option would be to be able to adjust the percentage of dividends yourself and that dividend comes direct from your profit margin. This way you can hire escorts and then barter for the percentage before hiring.

I concur, although I had a slightly different suggestion. On sale, you get to choose which wingmates to pass dividends to and how much of your profit to transfer. You cannot transfer more than you have earned as profit. I wholeheartedly agree this should come from your own profits.

 

[rootsrat]

I am all for transferring credits between players, and to avoid pirates asking for credits, you could make it so that you would have to be docked to the same station or outpost as the other part to be able to transfer credits between two players.

I concur, although I had a slightly different suggestion. On sale, you get to choose which wingmates to pass dividends to and how much of your profit to transfer. You cannot transfer more than you have earned as profit. I wholeheartedly agree this should come from your own profits.

Great ideas, I've added them to the OP.

Keep'em coming, hopefully the developers will read this thread and see the need for the change in the current functionality.

 

[lenna]

Perhaps trade dividends could be reworked effectively as player created missions with conditions which may minimise the opportunity for exploitation by any specific party. If any given wing member fails to fulfil the terms of the agreement then the agreement terms would dictate how things get resolved with fines and compensation being payable where appropriate.

Another nicety might be if there was the opportunity for pilots (or local factions) to award divid-ends (in addition to appropriate bounties if target(s) killed) to hero pilots outside of a wing who perhaps assist ships without escorts (encouraging combat players to perhaps patrol more dangerous trading regions). This would not be a credit transfer in the strictest sense, and still could be potentially exploited if not implemented carefully.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

I don't understand why some of you guys want to force the way other people should play... What do you really care if a new player gets his shiny FDL on day 1? How is this going to affect your game and the way you play? If someone wants to get a big shiny vessel day 1, let them! Let them get it and find out how wrong they were to skip all the fun and learning the ropes in smaller ships, when they get reduced to space dust in their first USS or fry themselves in the heat of the first start they jump to.

My last comments before I leave this thread :

Don't get me wrong I hope everyone enjoys the game an plays it the way they want. I just think its a slap in the face to the existing players if new ones can jump into ships it took others months to reach.
I mean if you'd played 3 months to get to Elite in Exploration (and another month learning how to explore properly) only to find that other players have got there in a week due to the Li Yong-Rui bonus (reported as a bug by the way) it would make you feel the entire trip and the status of Elite was less valuable.
Its an MMO and progress boosting for certain players (ones with rich friends) no matter what medium (ranks, equipment, status etc) should be avoided.

I'm going to employ the minecraft Vs garrys mod comparison here. If you can just magically create 5000 TNT from the first second then the experience is exciting exactly once. If you have a long term goal and you save up for weeks building your empire step by step and learning how to play then when you finally get your 5000 TNT the result will be miles more satisfying.
I've actually floated the idea of a test drive sector a number of times where players can effectively create any ship & outfitting combo and take it into the player tutorial missions. It would allow those with real life time problems to experience all the ships without impacting players in the MMO side.

 

[KaizoMK]

My last comments before I leave this thread :

Don't get me wrong I hope everyone enjoys the game an plays it the way they want. I just think its a slap in the face to the existing players if new ones can jump into ships it took others months to reach.
I mean if you'd played 3 months to get to Elite in Exploration (and another month learning how to explore properly) only to find that other players have got there in a week due to the Li Yong-Rui bonus (reported as a bug by the way) it would make you feel the entire trip and the status of Elite was less valuable.
Its an MMO and progress boosting for certain players (ones with rich friends) no matter what medium (ranks, equipment, status etc) should be avoided.

I'm going to employ the minecraft Vs garrys mod comparison here. If you can just magically create 5000 TNT from the first second then the experience is exciting exactly once. If you have a long term goal and you save up for weeks building your empire step by step and learning how to play then when you finally get your 5000 TNT the result will be miles more satisfying.
I've actually floated the idea of a test drive sector a number of times where players can effectively create any ship & outfitting combo and take it into the player tutorial missions. It would allow those with real life time problems to experience all the ships without impacting players in the MMO side.

The garrys mod comparison only applies personally to the player involved - YOUR experience is richer because your FDL wasn't handed to you, and this has nothing to do with the newer player, and visa versa. Your experience should not be devalued because someone else had theirs handed to them, because it has no impact on you whatsoever. If you see them in game, so what? It's no different from seeing an "earned" FDL, except the guy flying daddy's ship isn't going to pilot it well. If anything it adds an interesting dimension of realism to the game - some people just get handed to them. If they want to brick their experience by starting with a conda, let them. I'll still be earning mine, and hopefully I can do it in a wing because playing with friends is more fun anyway.

 

[rootsrat]

My last comments before I leave this thread :

Don't get me wrong I hope everyone enjoys the game an plays it the way they want. I just think its a slap in the face to the existing players if new ones can jump into ships it took others months to reach.
I mean if you'd played 3 months to get to Elite in Exploration (and another month learning how to explore properly) only to find that other players have got there in a week due to the Li Yong-Rui bonus (reported as a bug by the way) it would make you feel the entire trip and the status of Elite was less valuable.
Its an MMO and progress boosting for certain players (ones with rich friends) no matter what medium (ranks, equipment, status etc) should be avoided.

I'm going to employ the minecraft Vs garrys mod comparison here. If you can just magically create 5000 TNT from the first second then the experience is exciting exactly once. If you have a long term goal and you save up for weeks building your empire step by step and learning how to play then when you finally get your 5000 TNT the result will be miles more satisfying.
I've actually floated the idea of a test drive sector a number of times where players can effectively create any ship & outfitting combo and take it into the player tutorial missions. It would allow those with real life time problems to experience all the ships without impacting players in the MMO side.

Thanks for clarification, appreciate it. I understand your point of view now. I am not very competitive by nature, so stuff like that doesn't really bother me. I am conscious of the work I've put in to achieve my ranks and I don't care about others - I know what my rank is worth and that gives me the sense of accomplishment. Also, if someone wants to spoil the fun for themselves by skipping all the money earning and climbing up the ship progression ladder - fine by me.

I can understand however how that could actually matter to someone with more competitive nature.

Saying all that, is this really the reason for not having any sort of player-to-player compensation system in a multiplayer, cooperative game where you have to create your own content and stories and where money matters a lot?

 

[Alex Brentnall]

I said last comment but apparently I lack self control :S

The garrys mod comparison only applies personally to the player involved - YOUR experience is richer because your FDL wasn't handed to you, and this has nothing to do with the newer player, and visa versa. Your experience should not be devalued because someone else had theirs handed to them, because it has no impact on you whatsoever. If you see them in game, so what? It's no different from seeing an "earned" FDL, except the guy flying daddy's ship isn't going to pilot it well. If anything it adds an interesting dimension of realism to the game - some people just get handed to them. If they want to brick their experience by starting with a conda, let them. I'll still be earning mine, and hopefully I can do it in a wing because playing with friends is more fun anyway.

Im fine with people not wanting to "grind" or play the game as long as others. I just believe that shouldn't affect my game universe (as selfish as that makes me sound) it is why I added the last bit about a testing area etc.

Thanks for clarification, appreciate it. I understand your point of view now. I am not very competitive by nature, so stuff like that doesn't really bother me. I am conscious of the work I've put in to achieve my ranks and I don't care about others - I know what my rank is worth and that gives me the sense of accomplishment. Also, if someone wants to spoil the fun for themselves by skipping all the money earning and climbing up the ship progression ladder - fine by me.
I can understand however how that could actually matter to someone with more competitive nature.
Saying all that, is this really the reason for not having any sort of player-to-player compensation system in a multiplayer, cooperative game where you have to create your own content and stories and where money matters a lot?

I get that and I agree with your final sentence, there needs to be something but I just don't personally think 100% unrestricted is the way to go about it. I'll leave it at that

 

[Darth Ender]

No to anything that only serves to further ease an already obscenely easy and overpaid role in the game such as trading.

A thousand times no.

Make it less dependable. Less repetitious. Make it actually a little risky instead of this faux risk of npc interdiction that you can easily escape from instantly. But increase revenue of the current system? Hah. I dont think there is a word that the forum censor rules would let me use to describe making trade more profitable.