Horizons FDev, please talk to the active PVP community.

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Vulture sometimes ram better than a FDL, heh.


Mmmm.. They're around the same weight, right?

Anyway, as I'm sure you know, "ramming" effectiveness is basically determined by Hull Mass x Velocity.

Courier is very light, and (relatively) slow (compared to FdL, FAS, Clipper).


Clipper and Orca, 2 of the best ramming ships in the game. Why? Fast and Heavy. Shields don't have anything to do with it.
 
Mmmm.. They're around the same weight, right?

Anyway, as I'm sure you know, "ramming" effectiveness is basically determined by Hull Mass x Velocity.

Courier is very light, and (relatively) slow (compared to FdL, FAS, Clipper).


Clipper and Orca, 2 of the best ramming ships in the game. Why? Fast and Heavy. Shields don't have anything to do with it.

Yep pretty much.
 
There is no way missiles are a threat in PvE unless people want it to be. In general it's a better idea to use shield instead of hull tanking in PvE, thus missiles are irrelevant in PvE unless one intentionally makes oneself vulnerable to it. PD's ability to shoot down limpets is only relevant to cargo hauling, its ability to intersect missiles is completely overshadowed by other utility such as chaff/scb/sb, especially in PvE.
WRT missiles being irrelevant in PvE - you must be playing a different game.
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PD beats chaff under at least some circumstances because it is automatic and has much greater ammo capacity. That does not mean Chaff is pointless though, far from it does have it's place but it is far from a 100% countermeasure to incoming fire.
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As for the SB v. PD question, the situation is more complex and they address different concerns. An SB is of little use against missiles when the shields are down.
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As for SCBs, again they do not help when the shields are down and are far from automatic BUT again they may have utility but IMO there are better things to spend a slot on unless you have slots to spare.
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ECM v PD is more complex, but essentially ECM still does not overshadow PD and ECM probably complements PD since it is manually triggered and does not require ammo.
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PD proves it's worth when you are running and have lost your shields for one reason or another. It's power usage is also low enough that with power management it can still operate on most ships even after the Power Supply has been knocked out.
The problem is that SR already has heat consequences, so nerfing it flatly instead of introducing some counter mechanic is decreasing variety. Not to mention that SR has limited and predictable operation time based on the ship's weaponry and HSL amount.
Nerfing it is probably needed to counter the "missiles are pointless" argument, and who said anything about nerfing it flatly? As for counter mechanics, that is addressing the symptom and not the problem which would seem to be an over dependence on the stealth mechanic in combat under at least some circumstances. Whether it needs dealing with on a ship by ship basis I don't know, but if people are depending heavily on stealth in combat it does not lead to a healthy balanced game overall - it would not matter as much in a PvE only game but in a PvP-enabled game it just does not ring right

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Courier is one of the lightest ships, no matter how much weight it tries to put on, it doesn't compete with true large crafts. Also, ramming is a valid tactic, there is nothing wrong with it. Ships that can't maneuver out of its way don't have to worry about ramming damage as long as it's not light-weight build, ships that can maneuver don't have to worry about it to begin with. Courier isn't that maneuverable.
I know people who would disagree with the Courier being not that manoeuvrable, one of them being a friend of mine who considers it one of their favourite combat ships... and AFAIK they did not make use of SCBs.

The balancing of SCB was done out of the complaint of lack of variety and specialization of PvP and PvE ships, ships like Courier and Python just get caught up with these changes and become less and less competitive. Courier had a place before, not anymore.
If you rely on the pre-v1.5 SCBs to keep competitive then perhaps the problem is with player expectations as opposed to the ships themselves.
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Overall though, I thought the pre-SCB nerf situation sounded a lot like an exploit rather than an intended mechanic. WRT Stealth, I do not believe FD intended ships to use the mechanic as the fundamental basis of a build, thus could be considered an exploit from a certain point of view... How to address that situation though would by necessity need to be done carefully (possibly requiring public Beta testing to ensure the balance is right regardless of the PvE/PvP status). Stealth should be effective against NPCs but should not allow ANY ship to lay in wait and ambush other players near stations (c/f Stealth camping/loitering). If the NPC ignoring of Stealth was an intended change, then that is the main reason I can see for FD doing the change - to address Stealth camping.
 
Anyone who thinks the Courier is a good "ramming" ship clearly doesn't know what they're talking about...
There have been cases of the Imperial Courier, ramming and destroying other ships despite it's lower mass and because of the excessive (but balanced IMO) shields for it's size.
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I am not 100% sure of the exact circumstances behind those incidents but I know of players who have been accused (by other players) of cheating/hacking because of the overly high relative shield strength of the Imperial Courier when loaded with Prismatic shields.
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As for it being a good ramming ship, probably not now SCBs have been nerfed but prior to that I think it is a fair assessment. There are not a lot of ships that could survive the impact of 709MJ of shield (theoretical maximum for a Courier), probably only the larger more expensive ships.
 
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There have been cases of the Imperial Courier, ramming and destroying other ships despite it's lower mass and because of the excessive (but balanced IMO) shields for it's size.
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I am not 100% sure of the exact circumstances behind those incidents but I know of players who have been accused (by other players) of cheating/hacking because of the overly high relative shield strength of the Imperial Courier when loaded with Prismatic shields.
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As for it being a good ramming ship, probably not now SCBs have been nerfed but prior to that I think it is a fair assessment. There are not a lot of ships that could survive the impact of 709MJ of shield (theoretical maximum for a Courier), probably only the larger more expensive ships.


Here's the problem... All of your arguments are completely anecdotal. "My friend", "There have been reports", etc.

The game mechanics are quite clear and well understood - Lower mass = less effective ramming. Vulture, FdL, and Python all have comparable shields to the Courier, and all will wreck it in a ramming contest.
 
Here's the problem... All of your arguments are completely anecdotal. "My friend", "There have been reports", etc.

The game mechanics are quite clear and well understood - Lower mass = less effective ramming. Vulture, FdL, and Python all have comparable shields to the Courier, and all will wreck it in a ramming contest.
You like numbers? 709MJ of shield is a number and at least half (if not most) ships do not have that much shields and hull combined. Mass is only part of the equation and only comes into play IF the object survives the initial contact.
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At least my anecdotal argument is providing a basis, and if I were not sure about the source of the anecdotal information I would not reference it. There is the point that the specific person in question that I have referred to on numerous occasions does not frequent these forums for the very reason that they do not have the patience to deal with certain types of people that do. Suffice to say, what they have told me wrt the Imperial Courier seems to corroborate with (and be corroborated by) what has been posted by various people in these very forums in that regard.
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WRT ramming - the key point really is not to do with whether the Imperial Courier is a good ramming vessel on balance but rather that it has been used to perpetrate certain insta-kill ramming incidents. There has even been at least one case of someone dying from trying to ram-kill a fully shielded Imperial Courier.
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But the overarching point is that the Courier's shields are quite an effective defensive resource even without SCBs which seems to be the root cause of the bellyaching over the Courier.
 
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You like numbers? 709MJ of shield is a number and at least half (if not most) ships do not have that much shields and hull combined. Mass is only part of the equation and only comes into play IF the object survives the initial contact.
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At least my anecdotal argument is providing a basis, and if I were not sure about the source of the anecdotal information I would not reference it. There is the point that the person in question that I have referred to on numerous occasions does not populate these forums for the very reason that they do not have the patience to deal with certain types of people that populate these forums. Suffice to say, what they have told me wrt the Imperial Courier seems to corroborate with what has been posted in these very forums in that regard.
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WRT ramming - the key point really is not to do with whether the Imperial Courier is a good ramming vessel on balance but rather that it has been used to perpetrate certain insta-kill ramming incidents. There has even been at least one case of someone dying from trying to ram-kill an Imperial Courier.
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But the overarching point is that the Courier's shields are quite an effective defensive resource even without SCBs which seems to be the root cause of the bellyaching over the Courier.

http://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial_courier/24A3A3A1C3A2C3C---04040404p4-----.Iw18UA==.Aw18UA==

Courier - 709mj w/ Prismatics, 280 Armor, 91 Tons



http://coriolis.io/outfit/vulture/24A5E4E3E5A4E3C--040404-p2----.AwRj4zyA.CwBj4zyA

Vulture - 735mj w/ Prismatics, 560 armor, 385 tons



http://coriolis.io/outfit/fer_de_lance/26A5A4A4E6A4E3C-----040404040404p2----.Iw18aQ==.Aw18aQ==


FdL - 1,227mj w/ Prismatics, 788 armor, 459 tons


http://coriolis.io/outfit/python/27A6A5A4E7A6E5C-----04040404p1--------.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==

Python - 855mj w/ Prismatics, 910 armor, 727 tons



Please just stop.

(EDIT: Worth noting, most people would not run all Shield Boosters, but if you're using that as an example, it's only fair to compare other ships to the courier that way.)
 
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A handful out of how many ships in the game? Also keep in mind that not everyone will have access to prismatic shields, not everyone will have maxed out builds and relatively speaking it is still heavily shielded for it's size AND price.
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For example the courier build is half the price of the Vulture build and the other builds are 10 times (or more) the cost of the Courier (not comparing apples with apples). I would expect a more expensive ship to on-balance normally fair better than a cheaper ship.
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Price wise the Courier is in the region of the likes of the Diamondback Explorer in terms of buy in but probably lower than the Cobra Mk III in terms of overall build cost. I would wager it has better survivability than those craft on balance.
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In the case of 400 hull and 200 shields versus 200 hull and 400 shields my money would probably be on the latter given pilots of relatively equal skill.
 
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A handful out of how many ships in the game? Also keep in mind that not everyone will have access to prismatic shields, not everyone will have maxed out builds and relatively speaking it is still heavily shielded for it's size AND price.
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For example the courier build is half the price of the Vulture build and the other builds are 10 times (or more) the cost of the Courier (not comparing apples with apples). I would expect a more expensive ship to on-balance normally fair better than a cheaper ship.
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Price wise the Courier is in the region of the likes of the Diamondback Explorer in terms of buy in but probably lower than the Cobra Mk III in terms of overall build cost. I would wager it has better survivability than those craft on balance.
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In the case of 400 hull and 200 shields versus 200 hull and 400 shields my money would probably be on the latter given pilots of relatively equal skill.


You would lose your money. The ship with the larger mass wins, which will be the ship with the the greater hull.

A Viper MkIII will beat a Courier in a ramming contest.


How much money you want to put on it? I'll test it tonight when I get home from work and record video proof of it, and provide both ship builds.
 
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Nope. The ship with the larger mass wins, which will be the ship with the the greater hull.

A Viper MkIII will beat a Courier in a ramming contest.
I was not talking about ramming and you should know that given I mentioned the term "skill".
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There is no "skill" with ramming, it is a brain dead option of last resort IMO.
 
I was not talking about ramming and you should know that given I mentioned the term "skill".
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There is no "skill" with ramming, it is a brain dead option of last resort IMO.


Stop moving the goal post.

There have been cases of the Imperial Courier, ramming and destroying other ships despite it's lower mass and because of the excessive (but balanced IMO) shields for it's size.

Yeah, what you mean to say is there have been cases of people not putting 4 pips into shields.

Head to head, Viper will beat a Courier. You said the courier is good at ramming and you keep backpeddling and moving the goalpost every time I present an argument to the contrary.

Know when to stop. You can't win this argument.
 
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I have not moved any goal posts and if you actually READ my posts you should understand that my contention all along has been wrt the shields of a courier being large for it's size.
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The related ramming discussion was just referencing anecdotal evidence pointing out one way in which the shield strength of the Courier has worked out to it's advantage.
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As for the viper v. courier, there are numerous variables in play but I would not rule out the Courier despite the on-paper higher DPS and speed of the Viper (assuming you are talking about the Mk III) with the Viper Mk IV things are a bit more complicated since it is much more heavily armed (on paper).
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I have been up against NPC ships of varying types in ships of varying types and there is no real hard and fast formula of ship X can beat ship Y in all circumstances regardless of what the numbers say. Circumstances play as much a part as anything else.
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There is one factor that can not be ignored though, 400 units of shields regenerate (even without SCBs) while 400 units of hull does not (regardless of loadout) which is a point to consider when comparing the numbers and is the source of my faith in shields over hull.
 
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WRT missiles being irrelevant in PvE - you must be playing a different game.

Excuse me, would you kindly explain what WRT stands for?

PD beats chaff under at least some circumstances because it is automatic and has much greater ammo capacity. That does not mean Chaff is pointless though, far from it does have it's place but it is far from a 100% countermeasure to incoming fire.

Um... news flash, PD doesn't 100% counter incoming missiles nor limpets. Again, shield builds for PvE, since module and NPC's SR immunity makes hull tanking pointless. It means HSL/Chaff/SB are more useful in PvE in comparison to a PD.


As for the SB v. PD question, the situation is more complex and they address different concerns. An SB is of little use against missiles when the shields are down.

Why would you let your shield go down in PvE is my question.

As for SCBs, again they do not help when the shields are down and are far from automatic BUT again they may have utility but IMO there are better things to spend a slot on unless you have slots to spare.

Why the hell are you letting your shield go down in PvE? Why are you sticking around after your shield went down? Hull tanking in PvE is inefficient.

ECM v PD is more complex, but essentially ECM still does not overshadow PD and ECM probably complements PD since it is manually triggered and does not require ammo.

Yea, not to mention the CD and oh, close to no one uses it, even in PvE.

PD proves it's worth when you are running and have lost your shields for one reason or another. It's power usage is also low enough that with power management it can still operate on most ships even after the Power Supply has been knocked out.

Why would you only start running when your shield is down is my question.


Nerfing it is probably needed to counter the "missiles are pointless" argument, and who said anything about nerfing it flatly? As for counter mechanics, that is addressing the symptom and not the problem which would seem to be an over dependence on the stealth mechanic in combat under at least some circumstances. Whether it needs dealing with on a ship by ship basis I don't know, but if people are depending heavily on stealth in combat it does not lead to a healthy balanced game overall - it would not matter as much in a PvE only game but in a PvP-enabled game it just does not ring right

Have you personally flew a SRing ship in PvP combat?

I know people who would disagree with the Courier being not that manoeuvrable, one of them being a friend of mine who considers it one of their favourite combat ships... and AFAIK they did not make use of SCBs.

Who is this friend of yours? How often does he PvP? What PvP player group does he fly with? I'm talking about the usefulness of Courier in PvP.

If you rely on the pre-v1.5 SCBs to keep competitive then perhaps the problem is with player expectations as opposed to the ships themselves.

Keep that strawman up and see how long you will last.

I explained to you what caused the SCB balance changes and you are telling me I'm relying on pre-1.5 SCBs? Where is the logic?

Overall though, I thought the pre-SCB nerf situation sounded a lot like an exploit rather than an intended mechanic. WRT Stealth, I do not believe FD intended ships to use the mechanic as the fundamental basis of a build, thus could be considered an exploit from a certain point of view... How to address that situation though would by necessity need to be done carefully (possibly requiring public Beta testing to ensure the balance is right regardless of the PvE/PvP status). Stealth should be effective against NPCs but should not allow ANY ship to lay in wait and ambush other players near stations (c/f Stealth camping/loitering). If the NPC ignoring of Stealth was an intended change, then that is the main reason I can see for FD doing the change - to address Stealth camping.

SCB was nerfed over and over if you don't remember or wasn't here, and Sandro said himself that he wanted SCBs to stay, not to mention SCB in the higher classes are actually buffed save the HSL necessity. You are telling me you believe stealth is an exploit now...? SR never affected NPCs, they could always detect SR targets, and the most people did with stealth that is questionable is SR ramming speeding ships, which is ineffective because SR will always be detected if the ship is close enough and always has a fuzzy sign on the radar...

Look, I'm trying to have a conversation here but the things you are typing is very much beyond me. All you have done so far is telling me how unfamiliar you are with the game mechanics and how you keep "hearing" things from other people who might or might not be reliable sources of information.
 
With Respect/Regard To (WRT) is part of TLAs 101
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PD counters missiles effectively enough for the cases where it is useful. I have had my own hide saved on a few occasions thanks to having PD fitted to specific ships.
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As for letting my shields go down, it is not a case of letting anything go down - there are occasions where a lone ship can be overwhelmed/outmatched by NPC opposition and FSD recharge prevents immediate escape. Not only that but disruption factors can be a problem too (less of an issue in my current ship but not completely a non-issue). In general, I try not to get into a situation where my shields go down and with my current go-to ship/build it is rare that they do (not full A-Class either). However, as I have stated there are situations where it can be unavoidable (even in PvE).
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WRT SCBs that was the key balance change in v1.5/2.0 and the Courier is known to not dissipate heat as well as some (probably due to it's small size in part) thus the heat cost added to SCBs basically rules them out for the Courier. Given the complaint that the Courier was better pre-v1.5/2.0 it is a natural assertion that the SCB nerfing is the root cause of that observation.
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As for the friend I am referring to, it is not for me to give up their id nor the group they hang with but I can tell you they are no amateur where Elite and similar games are concerned. Whether they PvP a lot or not is moot, I know they do engage in it when they (or their group) feels the need to.
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As for Stealth and using it - I would not use it in combat for several reasons, one being that IMO only idiots fly without shields as a matter of the course. Shields are an insurance that limit the damage your equipment is subjected to. The old favoured trick of targeting the power plant to destroy ships has been mitigated but does not completely eliminate the problem - destroying the power plant basically forces the opponent to disengage - assuming their load-out and power grouping allows for it (Coriolis is excellent for ensuring it is the case). FTR I did try using it once, but it caused more problems than it solved.
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As for the ramming incidents and Stealth, I do not have the full information on that score. I am however led to believe that out of combat, Stealth is effective against NPCs - the admittedly rare times I have used it (occasional smuggling BBM), I have not been scanned. It is probably the case that once an NPC has a lock on you Stealth is ineffective. Perhaps the same should be true in PvP, i.e. Stealth should be only effective in avoiding getting a lock in the first place.
 
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Just wanted to point out that I agree that HRPs, given their current strength, should be heavier. It's ridiculous to triple or quadruple your armor and only lose 5 or 10 m/s top speed. The niche for "small ships focusing on speed and agility at the expense of hit points" was already small, and I feel like it's now disappeared almost entirely.

If I could tweak HRPs, I'd give the "D" class the pre-2.0 armor values, and add a "C" class with the current armor values but double weight (same as "E" class).
 
PD counters missiles effectively enough for the cases where it is useful. I have had my own hide saved on a few occasions thanks to having PD fitted to specific ships.

On what ship/loadout, what were you doing?

As for letting my shields go down, it is not a case of letting anything go down - there are occasions where a lone ship can be overwhelmed/outmatched by NPC opposition and FSD recharge prevents immediate escape. Not only that but disruption factors can be a problem too (less of an issue in my current ship but not completely a non-issue). In general, I try not to get into a situation where my shields go down and with my current go-to ship/build it is rare that they do (not full A-Class either). However, as I have stated there are situations where it can be unavoidable (even in PvE).

I think this constitutes as pilot error that leads to the need of PD.

WRT SCBs that was the key balance change in v1.5/2.0 and the Courier is known to not dissipate heat as well as some (probably due to it's small size in part) thus the heat cost added to SCBs basically rules them out for the Courier. Given the complaint that the Courier was better pre-v1.5/2.0 it is a natural assertion that the SCB nerfing is the root cause of that observation.

The SCB balance change caused small ships to unable to use SCBs effectively, and Courier's only merit was its shields and already low class SCBs.

As for the friend I am referring to, it is not for me to give up their id nor the group they hang with but I can tell you they are no amateur where Elite and similar games are concerned. Whether they PvP a lot or not is moot, I know they do engage in it when they (or their group) feels the need to.

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Then don't use them as reference...

I'm talking about PvP balance here so how could PvP experience be moot? Games similar to Elite isn't Elite, flight model might be similar but the mechanics are not.

As for Stealth and using it - I would not use it in combat for several reasons, one being that IMO only idiots fly without shields as a matter of the course.

Really, is that why a handful of people I know that PvP rigorously making laughing stock out of shielded ships while using shieldless SRing ones? It allows more pips into Engines and Weapons to put on pressure to force a 402 pip set up on the shielded ship.

As for the ramming incidents and Stealth, I do not have the full information on that score. I am however led to believe that out of combat, Stealth is effective against NPCs - the admittedly rare times I have used it (occasional smuggling BBM), I have not been scanned. It is probably the case that once an NPC has a lock on you Stealth is ineffective. Perhaps the same should be true in PvP, i.e. Stealth should be only effective in avoiding getting a lock in the first place.

Test have been done, actually, do the testing yourself, try SR immediately as you drop into the station area and see if you get scanned. SR doesn't work on NPCs. What you're proposing about stealth makes stealth useless in combat setting... the whole idea is to throw enemy targeting off...
 
Just wanted to point out that I agree that HRPs, given their current strength, should be heavier. It's ridiculous to triple or quadruple your armor and only lose 5 or 10 m/s top speed. The niche for "small ships focusing on speed and agility at the expense of hit points" was already small, and I feel like it's now disappeared almost entirely.

If I could tweak HRPs, I'd give the "D" class the pre-2.0 armor values, and add a "C" class with the current armor values but double weight (same as "E" class).
There should be only one class of HRP available per class of internal. Fitting a class 2 HRP in a class 5 internal makes no sense.
I also do not get what is the reason to go for rank E over rank D? Price only? i'd rather see rank D weaker but lighter, and rank B (or C) stronger but heavier.
Also, there should be class 6/7/8 HRPs for those, like me, willing to sacrifice weight for some extra hull points.

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Test have been done, actually, do the testing yourself, try SR immediately as you drop into the station area and see if you get scanned. SR doesn't work on NPCs.
SR works, but in a really unrealistic and pointless way with NPCs.
Around a station, security vessels would head to your direction from 6.5km away if you do not silent run.
But if you enable SR from this range, they would turn back.
Which is very funny to watch when you continuously enable/disable SR at that range :0)

But what bothers me the most is that NPCs at range don't have any difficulty to land some hits when I SR, while I confirm most players can't nail any. This is especially bad when NPCs have railguns and are able to nail almost any single shot whether you SR or not.
 
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@GF: Not pilot error, there have been a few occasions where interdiction results in FSD cooldown regardless of how well you track the centre or how quickly you submit, conversely I have been able to completely break an FSD lock with a sharp turn. Neither works 100% of the time and sometimes FSD interdictions resolve too quickly to respond.
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Regardless, PD is still effective in what it does regardless of the cause of the situation.
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As for my friend's judgement, I would trust his over yours any day of the week and I said Elite and similar games (not just games similar to Elite).
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As for amount of PvP experience being moot, I go back to my original point is that PvP factors should not be considered in isolation of other game play factors.
 
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SR works, but in a really unrealistic and pointless way with NPCs.
Around a station, security vessels would head to your direction from 6.5km away if you do not silent run.
But if you enable SR from this range, they would turn back.
That sounds like an inverted logic bug in the AI scripts, has anyone reported this to FD?
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All I can say for certain is that I have never been scanned while Stealthed but as I neither get scanned often nor go into Stealth often further testing is a bit moot. It does not change my view that Stealth should not be considered an in-combat mechanic though, and the situation highlighted by Geoffrey indicates why I think it is OP and should be nerfed. The NPC situation needs to be fixed though too.
 
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@GF: Not pilot error, there have been a few occasions where interdiction results in FSD cooldown regardless of how well you track the centre or how quickly you submit, conversely I have been able to completely break an FSD lock with a sharp turn. Neither works 100% of the time and sometimes FSD interdictions resolve too quickly to respond.

There are definitely questionable interdiction glitches, but the topic of discussion is missiles against hull. Why would you fly in SC with your shields still recharging?

Regardless, PD is still effective in what it does regardless of the cause of the situation.

PD is only effective in very conditional situation, which is when your shield is down and when enemies are carrying missiles, which is much lower than the importance of Chaff vs Gimbal/Turret, SB/SCB shield maintenance.

As for my friend's judgement, I would trust his over yours any day of the week and I said Elite and similar games (not just games similar to Elite).

Uh... nepotism much? Mind stop defeating your own argument? This is an era of meritocracy, at least on the appearance, so please catch up to date?

As for amount of PvP experience being moot, I go back to my original point is that PvP factors should not be considered in isolation of other game play factors.

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And I will tell you this over and over, most ships are useful in PvE, and not the case in PvP, hence why people are discussing a compromise between the two. What you are doing is using arguments that lack credibility and suggestions that clearly display your lack of experience in PvP, yet you attempt to speak for matters on PvP instead of the appropriate extent of your knowledge. Stop doing that, stick to what you know, stop pretending to understand mechanics when you do not.

If you want to talk about PvE balance, open up your own thread and do it there instead of doing it here. One of the few constructive/informed points you've made in this thread is that PvE is just as important as PvP, that's a given, and not to mention the developer already stressed this point.

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All I can say for certain is that I have never been scanned while Stealthed but as I neither get scanned often nor go into Stealth often further testing is a bit moot. It does not change my view that Stealth should not be considered an in-combat mechanic though, and the situation highlighted by Geoffrey indicates why I think it is OP and should be nerfed. The NPC situation needs to be fixed though too.

I haven't seen any substantial argument against it other than you want it nerfed. It already has some proper trade off, it merely needs some counter mechanics to it.
 
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