Horizons FDev, please talk to the active PVP community.

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@GF: What you are talking about is trying to force PvP balance conditions on others even when it could adversely affect PvE gameplay - case in point missiles.
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Very few of the points raised would have a positive effect on PvE and in fact IMO mostly negative.
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PD is a defensive weapon, and you have missed the anti-piracy utility of it as well. Not surprising since you represent a much hated group of wannabe pirates and *shock* the usage of the PD as a piracy defence measure is irrelevant or niche.
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PvPers such as yourself seem to only care about ONE type of gameplay - Combat - and seem to be forgetting that the game is about ALOT more than that and the balance should reflect that.
 
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@GF: What you are talking about is trying to force PvP balance conditions on others even when it could adversely affect PvE gameplay - case in point missiles.
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Very few of the points raised would have a positive effect on PvE and in fact IMO mostly negative.
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PD is a defensive weapon, and you have missed the anti-piracy utility of it as well.
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PvPers such as yourself seem to only care about ONE type of gameplay - Combat - and seem to be forgetting that the game is about ALOT more than that and the balance should reflect that.


You use Point Defense in mining? Or Trading? Or exploration?

All weapons, armor, shield cell banks, and counter-measures are used.... FOR COMBAT..

The only factors for exploration are: Jump range, internals for Fuel scoop, scanners, and AFMU... anything I'm forgetting?

The only factors for trading and mining are: Cargo space, jump range, fuel scoop, and *MAYBE* shields?


Have you ever actually been pirated by another player? Has an NPC ever tried using hatch breakers on you?

News flash, if your shields are up, the hatch breakers fail.

Furthermore, if you're in a RES site, you're flying a combat ship. There's literally no reason to mine in an active RES instance.


Everything else is combat related... IE - Bounty hunting, pirating, CZ's, pvp, etc.
 
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@GF: What you are talking about is trying to force PvP balance conditions on others even when it could adversely affect PvE gameplay - case in point missiles.

Missiles do poor damage, anyone can see it. If you like to use PD so much, you should welcome this change since it makes PD relevant again, like how the SCB balance made HSL relevant again. Also it makes killing NPC easier.

Very few of the points raised would have a positive effect on PvE and in fact IMO mostly negative.

Uh, like what? List them instead of hand-waving.


PD is a defensive weapon, and you have missed the anti-piracy utility of it as well.

It's more of a piracy-enrager, but again, like I said, lack of experience. Pirates get annoyed if their target uses PD and will potentially ask for more cargo or do more damage to the ship because it is resisting. Not to mention the accuracy of PD against limpet is abysmal.


PvPers such as yourself seem to only care about ONE type of gameplay - Combat - and seem to be forgetting that the game is about ALOT more than that and the balance should reflect that.

L.M.A.O.

There comes the stereotype. How much do you want to bet I am knowledgeable in every field of this game and play every profession? Actually, don't tell me, I could care less for someone who indulges in stereotyping.

Like I said earlier, a polymath can specialize, it doesn't make one any less of a polymath.

I trade, BH, Pirate, Explore, Mine, Smuggle, material collect, base raid, PP, play in a recognized player group, play alone when I feel like it, give noobs gold when I get bored in the starter system, actively interact with other player groups on a regular basis, the list goes on.

Did you know that? I guess not.

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I am giving up at this point, it feels like certain individual really wants to see this thread closed.
 
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It does not change my view that Stealth should not be considered an in-combat mechanic though, and the situation highlighted by Geoffrey indicates why I think it is OP and should be nerfed. The NPC situation needs to be fixed though too.
What i meant is that for pvE, SR is very limited to useless.

In PvP it's a whole different story and i do consider this a terrific combat mechanic which i really do not want to see nerfed. I fly a shieldless armored FAS and SR + boost + ram + frag canons is a very satisfying way to engage a commander. You can then dance around your target while dealing some burst damage and pop some heat sink (or not) while your opponent is unable to use gimballed weapons.
I love it.
Not OP: you sacrifice regenerative shield for SR. You also need to manage heat the way a shielded opponent would manage SCB heat. I find this very well balanced.

But it just does not work in PvE.

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Missiles do poor damage, anyone can see it. If you like to use PD so much, you should welcome this change since it makes PD relevant again, like how the SCB balance made HSL relevant again. Also it makes killing NPC easier.
Yep, I tested that in 1.5.
Against large/medium/small hull, torpedo do 150 hull damage, but missiles do 17.
Most ships outrun missiles / torpedos from a distance by boosting.
Missiles are a joke, except if you use them against low hull / fast flying ships.

EDIT: Sure, unless FD confirms you never know, but from what I could observe, hull size and hardness don't matter (much) against missiles and torpedos.
 
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What i meant is that for pvE, SR is very limited to useless.

In PvP it's a whole different story and i do consider this a terrific combat mechanic which i really do not want to see nerfed. I fly a shieldless armored FAS and SR + boost + ram + frag canons is a very satisfying way to engage a commander. You can then dance around your target while dealing some burst damage and pop some heat sink (or not) while your opponent is unable to use gimballed weapons.
I love it.
Not OP: you sacrifice regenerative shield for SR. You also need to manage heat the way a shielded opponent would manage SCB heat. I find this very well balanced.

But it just does not work in PvE.

Not to mention, about 80% of the time your canopy cracks if your opponent puts up any kind of fight, and if you're matched against someone who's good with Fixed MC's, you can have a real tough time.

Flying Stealth builds is probably the most fun I've had in this game. I went head to head -vs- a FAS, followed by a Corvette recently.. The FAS fled with 20% hull when his Corvette buddy dropped in.

But yeah, let's listen to guys who don't watch PvP videos and have never PvP'd in this game, ever.. Sounds legit. They know balance. SR seems OP.

(Here's the build I was using, btw.. Fun stuff: http://coriolis.io/outfit/diamondba...A5C2b2626020202002b2b292966.Iw1-kA==.Aw1-kA==)
 
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Not to mention, about 80% of the time your canopy cracks
Hell yeah, that is my favorite part of a fight!
Something that players relying on shield then fly away when it collapses will never enjoy :)

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My build:
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70Q,4zh7fZ7e97e901Q01Q0Wg0Wg,319Y9Y7_7_9Y6Q6k,16y16y15O13q12G9qI
(6A powerplant so that i can still fly/fight even in case of power failure or powerplant at 0%)
(rank A sensor so that I can spot my opponent first and enable SR on time)
 
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Hell yeah, that is my favorite part of a fight!
Something that players relying on shield then fly away when it collapses will never enjoy :)

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My build:
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70Q,4zh7fZ7e97e901Q01Q0Wg0Wg,319Y9Y7_7_9Y6Q6k,16y16y15O13q12G9qI
(6A powerplant so that i can still fly/fight even in case of power failure or powerplant at 0%)
(rank A sensor so that I can spot my opponent first and enable SR on time)


Last time I ran into Alexander The Grape I believe he was flying a FAS with 4 PA's, and tons of heat-sinks. It was scary.
 
@GF: Unless you are perhaps doing a special PvP combat build then missiles are still a threat especially for starter craft such as the Sidewinder. Once you get above a certain level, then they are perhaps less of a concern but still should not be taken too lightly regardless.
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I can't be more clear than that - more ammo capacity for missiles (no more than double) but not more damage per shot. Missiles are quite effective enough in PvE as it is.
 
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@GF: Unless you are perhaps doing a special PvP combat build then missiles are still a threat especially for starter craft such as the Sidewinder. Once you get above a certain level, then they are perhaps less of a concern but still should not be taken too lightly regardless.


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I can't be more clear than that - more ammo capacity for missiles (no more than double) but not more damage per shot. Missiles are quite effective enough in PvE as it is.

Capacity is almost no longer an issue for anyone that owns Horizon, we can instantly refill, the issue is in quality not quantity.

Also, if a Sidewinder is trying to survive missiles (without hull tanking builds), I must question the sanity of the Cmdr. A Sidewinder shouldn't take more than 3 seeker missiles to finish off at stock (no shields), it's the starter ship for crying out loud.

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Not to mention, about 80% of the time your canopy cracks if your opponent puts up any kind of fight

Oh god, I hate it when it happens, but it gets me pumped. Especially in a dual PA vulture, overtime I've grown to not need the target leading reticle as much anymore.
 
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Last time I ran into Alexander The Grape I believe he was flying a FAS with 4 PA's, and tons of heat-sinks. It was scary.
Yep, that kind of ship is my nemesis...
I would be delighted to meet him on the battlefield, fight to the death, then wing up to do some damage in the system. :)
 
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@GF: 3 or 4 missiles could easily come in a single volley but typically you could easily take 2 missile hits in separate volleys whilst trying to run. The point is that a third of a stock sidewinder hull damage (~33 hull damage per missile) is plenty enough of a threat. In addition it would not necessarily be the sidewinder pilots fault if they take missile damage while running. You seem to be too quick to be overly critical of the victim IMO. There could be numerous reasons why such pilots could end up in such situations and before you ask - NO I won't try to list them, it is not my fault if you lack the imagination to consider the possibilities.
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As for synthesis of ammo, while you may be happy to grind away for them not everyone is. In addition, synthesis is really an out of combat activity and IMO/IME more meant to support deep range patrols and explorers than intended as a regular usage thing. Where missiles are concerned, the synthesis seems to be only a half load of a class 2 launcher.
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It sounds to me like you want missiles to be big I WIN buttons rather than supplemental weapons they seem to be meant to be.
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With missiles as they are now they can be fitted to a ship MLRS style (c/f a loadout that a friend of mine at least sometimes uses) and a couple of volleys of say 6 seeker missiles will quickly give a lot of ships something to be concerned about. Even two launchers allows you to catch a running NPC before they can escape (assuming they last that long) - at least most of the time IME.
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Probably a military grade Anaconda (<2000 total damage) is probably what I would consider a reasonable maximum measure of total potential hull damage from a single Class 2 launcher (currently would probably need 2 class 2 launchers for that), and 4 military grade Sidewinders (<850 total damage) seems reasonable for a single class 1 launcher (currently probably at 2 military grade level - <500 total damage).
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In general though, the current per shot (~33 or more per missile based on your 3 hit estimate - which seems to match up with my experience of 3 volleys of 2 missiles for a random NPC Cobra Mk III) and total damage (based on 33 per shot - 396 for class 1/S and 792 for class 2/M) capabilities of the current range of missile launchers is fine IMO.
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Another thought, 33 damage per launch roughly equates to 10 damage per second (1 missile every 3 seconds or thereabouts - ROF of 0.3/s) which seems to be better than the on paper damage rates stated by Coriolis (possibly due to them using the base damage values and not taking into account the explosion effect which may vary a bit depending on range of detonation from target and the nature of target bulkheads).
 
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@GF: 3 or 4 missiles could easily come in a single volley but typically you could easily take 2 missile hits in separate volleys whilst trying to run. The point is that a third of a stock sidewinder hull damage (~33 hull damage per missile) is plenty enough of a threat. In addition it would not necessarily be the sidewinder pilots fault if they take missile damage while running. You seem to be too quick to be overly critical of the victim IMO. There could be numerous reasons why such pilots could end up in such situations and before you ask - NO I won't try to list them, it is not my fault if you lack the imagination to consider the possibilities.

Are you serious? I'm seriously doubting if you are here to debate...

I can imagine all sort of worst scenario and all sort of best scenario, but they are the outlier, stop using arguments that you don't intend to support. Missiles aren't a threat as they are, stop making a pilot's incompetence as the excuse to prevent proper balancing of weaponry.

As for synthesis of ammo, while you may be happy to grind away for them not everyone is. In addition, synthesis is really an out of combat activity and IMO/IME more meant to support deep range patrols and explorers than intended as a regular usage thing. Where missiles are concerned, the synthesis seems to be only a half load of a class 2 launcher.

Do you want to hear how many times I reloaded rail guns in PvP battle, which you know, much more demanding than PvE...

And please, stop saying things that are utterly false. Synthesis has three options for explosive ammunition, first one reloads half, other two reload full.

It sounds to me like you want missiles to be big I WIN buttons rather than supplemental weapons they seem to be meant to be.

Please stop responding if you are not going to read, I emphasized over and over that the reason why Missiles need to be buffed is because it will make PD and ECM relevant again, which is in line of the developers' philosophy of creating variance in the game. Almost no one use missiles seriously.


With missiles as they are now they can be fitted to a ship MLRS style (c/f a loadout that a friend of mine at least sometimes uses) and a couple of volleys of say 6 seeker missiles will quickly give a lot of ships something to be concerned about. Even two launchers allows you to catch a running NPC before they can escape (assuming they last that long) - at least most of the time IME.

Stop using "a friend of mine" argument without giving any context as to what situation it entails. NPCs don't know how to outfit their ships properly nor how to escape properly...

Probably a military grade Anaconda (<2000 total damage) is probably what I would consider a reasonable maximum measure of total potential hull damage from a single Class 2 launcher (currently would probably need 2 class 2 launchers for that), and 4 military grade Sidewinders (<850 total damage) seems reasonable for a single class 1 launcher (currently probably at 2 military grade level - <500 total damage).

I really wonder what person sticks around if they aren't build for hull tanking, and why would they worry if they are hull tanking to take on the maximum potential damage of missiles, and give me reference, otherwise it's estimating.


In general though, the current per shot (~33 or more per missile based on your 3 hit estimate - which seems to match up with my experience of 3 volleys of 2 missiles for a random NPC Cobra Mk III) and total damage (based on 33 per shot - 396 for class 1/S and 792 for class 2/M) capabilities of the current range of missile launchers is fine IMO.

The problem is hull tanking builds don't have to worry and shield tanking builds can easily escape, why do you think people think missiles are useless?

Another thought, 33 damage per launch roughly equates to 10 damage per second (1 missile every 3 seconds or thereabouts - ROF of 0.3/s) which seems to be better than the on paper damage rates stated by Coriolis (possibly due to them using the base damage values and not taking into account the explosion effect which may vary a bit depending on range of detonation from target and the nature of target bulkheads).

It's much more intricate than just flat numbers, please tell me you read about hardness, explosive reduction percentage for various armor type and ships. The balance isn't just about flat damage adjustment.

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The reason why people ask for missile buff is because it has no place, even worse than fragment cannon.

Lasers do well against shields and is hit-scan so good for module sniping.

Kinetics have low capacitor consumption and do good/consistent hull and shield damage, module damage is also good.

Rail is hit-scan and is godly against modules and great against shields.

Plasma is good against both shield and hull.

Missiles do crap against shield, crap against hull, and crap against modules, hence why people are asking for a buff.
 
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The fragment cannon is actually very effective but only at close (or relatively close range)... after all it is effectively a space shot gun.
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What you (and others) are asking for IMO is not a buff but a super weapon... the current estimated effective nominal DOT measure for missiles is better than most weapons at the same classes (S/M) and buffing them would hurt PvE not help it IMO (because they would become OP - the current balance is about right).
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So what if missiles do not have a place in pure combat PvP because of certain dedicated combat builds... the game is not just about combat and as I have pointed out already IMO it is the hull tanking builds that probably need a nerf rather than buffing weapons to compensate for such extreme builds.
 
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the current estimated effective nominal DOT measure for missiles is better than most weapons at the same classes (S/M) and buffing them would hurt PvE not help it IMO (because they would become OP - the current balance is about right).
I have to admit I have not read all the posts on this thread about missiles...but if this can help:

- I confirm that you need 4-5 missiles to take down a mostly harmless (no shield, HRPs and bulkhead) Eagle (72 hull points).
- I tested that a single missile does 4% damage to a mostly harmless T9 (432 hull points).
- You would need 12-14 missiles to take down a mostly harmless Viper.
- About 30 to take down a mostly harmless Clipper / Python
- If these have a military bulkead, you would need twice more missiles
- And if you add HRPs...you see where this is going, right?

On top of that, most ships outrun missiles if fired from a distance (I could not even take down a commander flying a T6, 2km away, since he was boosting to get the hell out!)

While torpedos are somehow efficient, missiles are just good against small and nimble ships.
 
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I have to admit I have not read all the posts on this thread about missiles...but if this can help:

- I confirm that you need 4-5 missiles to take down a mostly harmless (no shield, HRPs and bulkhead) Eagle (72 hull points).
- I tested that a single missile does 4% damage to a mostly harmless T9 (432 hull points).
- You would need 12-14 missiles to take down a mostly harmless Viper.
- About 30 to take down a mostly harmless Clipper / Python
- If these have a military bulkead, you would need twice more missiles
- And if you add HRPs...you see where this is going, right?

On top of that, most ships outrun missiles if fired from a distance (I could not even take down a commander flying a T6, 2km away, since he was boosting to get the hell out!)

While torpedos are somehow efficient, missiles are just good against small and nimble ships.
Even a boosting T6 is not guaranteed to out run missiles, I know because I have been a T6 in that situation (ECM and PD). As for taking out ships, my current PvE build has 2 class 2 missile launchers and while ammo expenditure can be a concern the damage per shot feels about right for the current selection of missiles. Torpedoes sound about right but not used them personally as I have not intentionally gone up against larger ships that would need them nor do I consider my ships to have spare slots for them.
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If you are talking about adding HRPs then you are talking about combat focused builds. Weapons should NEVER be beefed up to deal with such extreme build situations as it makes the nominal baseline situation a frag-fest waiting to happen - and IMO ED is not and should never be that kind of game.
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As for firing missiles at range, in general that should be a last resort and IME generally unnecessary in a PvE setting even when ships are more nimble than you. With my current build - I have dealt with a variety of NPC targets (upto and including Vulture) without resorting to synthesis but then I am not completely dependent on my missiles although they do help to resolve the combat comparatively quickly.
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I am well aware of the military bulkhead situation and earlier proposed that missile launcher ammo capacities should possibly be increased (up to double). By my estimation a military bulkhead Anaconda is <2000 hull points and as such would take about 56 missiles to destroy which is where my proposal of doubling the launcher capacities comes from
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However, if you are taking on the likes of the larger heavier ships then you need to be considering packing torpedoes for them with the intention of using bombing runs, or using alternate loadouts and/or running in wings.
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For larger ships adding higher class launchers and/or alternative missile types (e.g. lighter/faster interceptor missiles - c/f shockwave mines wrt purpose perhaps) could be a better option than taking the lower end missiles and unilaterally beefing them up. Class 3 and above torpedo launchers (with internal ammo storage c/f missiles) may also be an idea. Increasing missile refire rates in some launchers could also be an option perhaps, at the expense of (more) energy per launch perhaps.
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Also where HRPs are concerned, it sounds like they need some kind of nerfing. Which I have pointed out numerous times already, increasing their mass would be a start but other things could be to have them decrease the rate of heat release (increase ship cooldown times) and/or increase the overall rate of heat build up (decrease ship warm up times).
 
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I like PVP. Just head to a community goal and you are guaranteed PVP within minutes. Normally with the same regular PVPers who turn up night after night to waste CMDRs at the CG rather than actually take part in the CG. Its good fun, for those who PVP.

The problem is all those CMDRs lost to solo or private groups because of PVPers wasting them in open. Long gone was the nice friendly PVP and pirates, now its just killing without even saying hi. Addressing issues for the small PVP community is fine as I'm all for PVP but how about first addressing issues for the other 95% of the community who are less vocal? Killing a CMDR in Shinrata who has a 20mil rebuy results in a 6k bounty...... now that needs fixing before anything else.
 
I like PVP. Just head to a community goal and you are guaranteed PVP within minutes. Normally with the same regular PVPers who turn up night after night to waste CMDRs at the CG rather than actually take part in the CG. Its good fun, for those who PVP.

The problem is all those CMDRs lost to solo or private groups because of PVPers wasting them in open. Long gone was the nice friendly PVP and pirates, now its just killing without even saying hi. Addressing issues for the small PVP community is fine as I'm all for PVP but how about first addressing issues for the other 95% of the community who are less vocal? Killing a CMDR in Shinrata who has a 20mil rebuy results in a 6k bounty...... now that needs fixing before anything else.
Damn right!
I would love FD to give some incentive to PvP...but it clearly does not seem to be on their priority list (I may change my mind if Sandro joins this thread and agrees to listen and comment to our ideas).
In the meantime, well, I head to the CG or PvP spots and target anything in or above my league.
 
Damn right!
I would love FD to give some incentive to PvP...but it clearly does not seem to be on their priority list (I may change my mind if Sandro joins this thread and agrees to listen and comment to our ideas).
In the meantime, well, I head to the CG or PvP spots and target anything in or above my league.


That's what PP was supposed to be...


...cept you can just go to solo and grind your merits.
 
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