FE2/FFE vs. ED. What are we actually missing?

[Balfuset790]

I've been reading through the forums for weeks now and seeing thread after thread of people saying the game lacks content. Now, I don't disagree that there's a lot more that can be added to the game to make it better, in terms of improvements to the mission structure and other things, one of which - improved missions - I already believe to be in the development pipeline given the back-end changes made to the way it works with 1.3.

However, what I also see are a lot of people mentioning how ED lacks a lot of content that previous games in the series had... and here's where I struggle to see the argument. I played HOURS and HOURS of FE2 and FFE back in my childhood - played the original Elite very briefly on the C64 but that was after I'd already played FE2 so it felt like a step backwards.

I was hoping to plumb the depths of players of the 2nd and 3rd Elite games - which I think Elite Dangerous is more trying to emulate than the original '84 game - and gather a list of what;'s currently missing that those games had. I'll start with what comes to mind immediately below:

1) Passenger Missions

With the Orca being in the game already I'm pretty sure they'll add these eventually. However in Frontier and FFE they were actually no different from package delivery missions. You might get attacked en route with both types and you went from one system to another taking something. Okay, you needed passenger cabins, but that just meant that each 'person' was 5 tons of cargo space, nothing else really.

2) Interaction with Mission Givers

A very basic system in FE2 where you could ask a pre-defined list of questions tog et more info about the job, request more money or get paid up front. Not a great deal of interactivity but it was a nice touch. Dunno if it's coming, but again it was simple enough in FE2 that replicating it wouldn't be too hard.

3) Planetary Landing

This is the big one, and has been talked about to death elsewhere on the forums. We've been told it's coming, we just don't know when. Next.

4) Assassination Target tracking

What I mean by this is the way that you'd be told that your target would be leaving X station at Y time, flying in Z ship. Unless you wanted to wrack up a 10,000 Cr. 'piracy and murder' fine you needed to wait for them to hyperspace jump and follow them using a Hypserspace Cloud Analyzer. I've never actually had an assassination target jump away and I don't have a Wake Scanner to follow pirates and other mission targets that get away from me. Can someone who's done this confirm if it's possible and if you can actually follow the target and still get the kill for the mission? If so, then this is technically already there, and perhaps the AI just needs to be more willing to run away. Otherwise I have already seen someone on Youtube follow his target to a station, wait for him to undock adn then follow him back out into SC. Seems mostly there to me as is.

5) Thargoids

Eh, I can take or leave them in all honesty. They weren't in FE2 as far as I'm aware and they were only in FFE as part of the scripted storyline you could follow.

6) Military recon and bombing missions

Not really possible until we have planetary flight mechanics or small, instanced, destructible stations in all honesty.

7) Planetary Mining

Same as above.

That's all I can think off off the top of my head. The galaxy looked at felt as samey in those games as it does here, and at least in this game you can get money for flying out and exploring these things.

In all honesty, in order to be a spiritual successor to those games tehre isn't a huge amount of stuff that's missing as it stands, and with asteroid mining actually being possible - i.e. there are ACTUAL ASTEROIDS to find - and bounty hunting being a possible way of making money as well - 50-500 cr. per pirate in the Anarchy systems wasn't very profitable in the old games - among other things, a lot has been added that wasn't a thing in the older games already.

Anyone else agree with me? I love this game, and for someone who was looking for a spiritual successor to FE 2 on a modern computer, it delivers (almost) everything I expected, and then some.

 

[Derath]

Comparing a modern game to a game programmed on a bathtub in 1910 and finding its missing features is hardly a positive to some people

 

[EdzUp]

For me its all the ships in FFE, fifty years they would change that much after all we still have the Cobra Mk 3. The Krait was in the first 3 but the FerDeLance was in Elite and ED but not fe2 or FFE weirdly.

The stuff in FFE I liked was the BBS system and the more friendly approach, ED seems clinical

 

[Balfuset790]

Comparing a modern game to a game programmed on a bathtub in 1910 and finding its missing features is hardly a positive to some people

I freely admit there are things 'missing', hence why I made this topic in the first place.

The point, however, is to discuss and collate those features, because when I look at it, and the people who claim that this game is inferior to its predecessors, I see a lot of people looking at the older games with rose-tinted glasses and remembering things that were never there. That's all.

For me its all the ships in FFE, fifty years they would change that much after all we still have the Cobra Mk 3. The Krait was in the first 3 but the FerDeLance was in Elite and ED but not fe2 or FFE weirdly.

The stuff in FFE I liked was the BBS system and the more friendly approach, ED seems clinical

True, the ship list is lacking in comparison, but they're adding new ships. The targetted 30 isn't that far off the list of 45 ships that were in FFE... and honestly, how many of those ships were utterly useless? I'm looking at you, Lifter and Interplanetary Shuttle... and most of the fighter craft like the Osprey and the Kestrel for that matter...

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

You forgot the Criminal Record system and the hidden black markets/police traps on the bulletin boards. Also: If you got caught with illegal cargo you didn't just get a fine, but also your cargo confiscated. Which makes a whole lot of sense, actually.

 

[Derath]

Its hard to discuss, because times have moved on - making a comparison to the original games is a flawed model, but even if you run with it ED comes out badly in my view.

Fundamentally I don't think it should be possible to compare them, technology has moved on the core mechanics should be evolved to a degree that they can at least stand up by themselves without comparison.

If you wanted a positive the sound quality in ED is fantastic, beyond the originals even comparing to when developed, and IMO superior to a vast majority of games, best thing about the game for me its no wonder the full immersion crowd like it so much.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Hmm... let me see.

1) Modern graphics.
2) Quality audio.
3) Fully modelled ship interiors.
4) Accurately modelled galaxy based off current knowledge of star systems
5) Ability to actually travel all the way to the core and beyond (because in FFE your components would expire after a year, leaving you in deep trouble - unless you edited your save).
6) Multiplayer
7) Suppport for 3D.

Probably more, those are just off the top of my head.

Oh, wait.... you were talking about the other way around!

 

[Balfuset790]

8) Crew members

though in the older game it was just a case of pay X credits/month and you can't launch without them. Would like to see them add this in of course, but more depth to it, someone sat in the co-pilots chair of my Cobra, but having more effect than just taking money out of my credit account at set intervals.

I think a lot of the lacking content comes down to the guys at FDev wanting to do these things meaningfully if they add them back into the game, like David's always said with regards to planetary landings. Of course some people will argue that the current content isn't very meaningful, but I'm not going to argue that point here as there are plenty of threads about it already elsewhere.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm... let me see.

1) Modern graphics.
2) Quality audio.
3) Fully modelled ship interiors.
4) Accurately modelled galaxy based off current knowledge of star systems
5) Ability to actually travel all the way to the core and beyond (because in FFE your components would expire after a year, leaving you in deep trouble - unless you edited your save).
6) Multiplayer
7) Suppport for 3D.

Probably more, those are just off the top of my head.

Oh, wait.... you were talking about the other way around!

+Rep for pointing out the stuff that has been added to the game, which was precisely part of my point. The game is what it's predecessors were, plus extras. Maybe I have low standards but that's all I was hoping for.

 

[Ceeege]

Old Elite fogies like me would love to see the original ships of ED & the FFE games. Craft like the Mamba, Krait, Shuttle & Transporter while maybe not the best at what they do, would add massively to the lore of todays ED.

You can't tell me that none of these ships are still flying?!! You still see the odd Austin Metro, TR7 & Ford Cortina on the road so why not a few of these ships flying around? There's no (immediate!) need to make them pilotable, just to see them in game would be a real plus for me personally and I'm sure for the immersion crew.

Yes I know FD have limited resources and time but this would be such a "nice to have".

...I'm sure the modding community could create very good representations in no time at all

 

[Zak Gordon]

Hmm... let me see.

1) Modern graphics.
2) Quality audio.

Well if you check my sig links, FFED3D is pretty good in relation to those, not as good as ED obviously, but certainly good enough.

3) Fully modelled ship interiors.

We did have ship interior screens in FFE (well cabin backgrounds!), and i made a nice mod of those for FFED3D

4) Accurately modelled galaxy based off current knowledge of star systems

FFE was maybe more accurate? irrc you could, in theory, travel between stars, in ED everything is instanced (as various experiments on these forums have revealed)

5) Ability to actually travel all the way to the core and beyond (because in FFE your components would expire after a year, leaving you in deep trouble - unless you edited your save).

Couldn't you fit an internal repair unit (i forget the exaxct name!) and fuel scoops to effectively keep going forever?

6) Multiplayer

Ymmv, but for me this is the main reason i'm bouncing off ED so far - too many MP game mechanics getting in the way of my normal Elite fun.

7) Suppport for 3D.

How are your eyes going to be in 10 years perhaps? I also don't do 3D tv or cinema, i prefer the 2D for clarity and image. I'm happily playing FFE (FFED3D at any rate) while Frontier 'fix' ED and put out atleast the Planetory Landings expansion, and i see little reasons to change that currently?

 

[Angus]

What are we actually missing?


In terms of previous Elite games, not that much - and for my money we have gained a first rate dogfighting experience, arguably absent since the original game.

Planetary landings, sure - I'm looking forward to that.




But something the original game had, but missing in Elite Dangerous is the missions.


Yes, we have the program generated type of task by the bucket load, and I'm not complaining, they or something like them is essential.

But what we don't have is the thrill we had in the original game when something UNIQUE happened, and suddenly you were heading into uncharted waters, thinking, what the hell is happening now? I'll never forget hunting down the Constrictor, and our final confrontation, or the mission to transport the Thargoid battle plans....... good old Agent Blake .........and to blazes with the Merchant Prince of Thrum!

I think there were only 2 missions on the BBC and 3 on the C64, but you didn't know that at the time, and their existence created an atmosphere that is lacking in Elite Dangerous, it meant that you never quite knew what was round the next corner, would there be a message waiting for you at the next startport, would you be hailed by a passing ship and entrusted with a new and intriguing mission leading you into the unknown?



I love E: D and I don't wish to sound harsh, but its as if the devs have been seduced by procedural programming and sustaining a stable "game climate" to the exclusion of narrative and unique content that you actually get excited about.



...well, you asked.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

Good post OP, I was thinking about this the other day and think you've covered everything. I hope they introduce the military recon and bombing missions once we have planterary landings, as those were exciting and involved a lot of combat with the defence forces over the surface of the planet. And it would be nice to have some interaction with potential employers, but perhaps that will come with being able to walk around stations.

I also miss being able to make fresh fertiliser by jettisoning slaves into the void

- - - Updated - - -

You forgot the Criminal Record system and the hidden black markets/police traps on the bulletin boards. Also: If you got caught with illegal cargo you didn't just get a fine, but also your cargo confiscated. Which makes a whole lot of sense, actually.

Forgot about those traps! Ah, the memories. Wasn't there also a lottery on BBS you could play. Was it actually possible to win?

 

[barcode]

Forgot about those traps! Ah, the memories. Wasn't there also a lottery on BBS you could play. Was it actually possible to win?

I don't remember there being a lottery, but I do know that buyable ship and cargo insurance was a planned feature of FE2 that got cut for some reason.

Police traps didn't confiscate cargo, but there were some very clever modifications of FFE that had similar features.

 

[Ian Skippy]

1) Passenger Missions

With the Orca being in the game already I'm pretty sure they'll add these eventually. However in Frontier and FFE they were actually no different from package delivery missions. You might get attacked en route with both types and you went from one system to another taking something. Okay, you needed passenger cabins, but that just meant that each 'person' was 5 tons of cargo space, nothing else really.

Which is why I personally don't see the point of passenger missions until ship walking is released. You could have additional mission requirements already though, for example smoothness of landings, being able to escape interdictions without spilling the drinks of your clientele etc.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well if you check my sig links, FFED3D is pretty good in relation to those, not as good as ED obviously, but certainly good enough.



We did have ship interior screens in FFE (well cabin backgrounds!), and i made a nice mod of those for FFED3D



FFE was maybe more accurate? irrc you could, in theory, travel between stars, in ED everything is instanced (as various experiments on these forums have revealed)



Couldn't you fit an internal repair unit (i forget the exaxct name!) and fuel scoops to effectively keep going forever?



Ymmv, but for me this is the main reason i'm bouncing off ED so far - too many MP game mechanics getting in the way of my normal Elite fun.



How are your eyes going to be in 10 years perhaps? I also don't do 3D tv or cinema, i prefer the 2D for clarity and image. I'm happily playing FFE (FFED3D at any rate) while Frontier 'fix' ED and put out atleast the Planetory Landings expansion, and i see little reasons to change that currently?

Hehe, i don't think there was any need to take my post that seriously

Yup, i've played FFED3D... enjoyed it immensely. But the post was comparing with the original version, not upgraded. At least i thought.

As for the repair units, they would repair, but wouldn't help with the component expiry.

And yes, you could travel... but it took an insanely long time, which is why you always used hyperspace.

 

[Balfuset790]

What are we actually missing?


In terms of previous Elite games, not that much - and for my money we have gained a first rate dogfighting experience, arguably absent since the original game.

Planetary landings, sure - I'm looking forward to that.




But something the original game had, but missing in Elite Dangerous is the missions.


Yes, we have the program generated type of task by the bucket load, and I'm not complaining, they or something like them is essential.

But what we don't have is the thrill we had in the original game when something UNIQUE happened, and suddenly you were heading into uncharted waters, thinking, what the hell is happening now? I'll never forget hunting down the Constrictor, and our final confrontation, or the mission to transport the Thargoid battle plans....... good old Agent Blake .........and to blazes with the Merchant Prince of Thrum!

I think there were only 2 missions on the BBC and 3 on the C64, but you didn't know that at the time, and their existence created an atmosphere that is lacking in Elite Dangerous, it meant that you never quite knew what was round the next corner, would there be a message waiting for you at the next startport, would you be hailed by a passing ship and entrusted with a new and intriguing mission leading you into the unknown?



I love E: D and I don't wish to sound harsh, but its as if the devs have been seduced by procedural programming and sustaining a stable "game climate" to the exclusion of narrative and unique content that you actually get excited about.



...well, you asked.

As I said, I never played the original Elite beyond a passing glance. I never knew it had scripted mission encounters,

However, FFE did have something similar, but, to my mind? I think that Community Goals are the modern day ED equivalent of that. You can't realistically do teh sort of scripted encounters that you had in those old single player experiences, either only one person can do them - and thus they need to be sufficiently hard to find that no-one probably would - or everyone can do them and then you end up in the situation of a typical MMO like WoW 'Wait, didn't the guiy that was just here tell you he'd killed the Lich King? Why do I have to go and do the same thing?'

Just my two pence on the idea of a scripted storyline, probably doesn't work in the ED framework for better or worse.

 

[Sendraks]

3) Planetary Landing

This is the big one, and has been talked about to death elsewhere on the forums. We've been told it's coming, we just don't know when. Next.

The problem I have with planetary landings is that they will be a lot of work for FD to deliver, but it isn't remotely clear what they would add to the game beyond a change in scenery. There has to be content beyond that, lots and lots of it, to justify FD putting planetary landings into the game.

I'd much rather they focused on getting more missions, better mission progression (with story arcs) and more ships into the game right now.

 

[Balfuset790]

Which is why I personally don't see the point of passenger missions until ship walking is released. You could have additional mission requirements already though, for example smoothness of landings, being able to escape interdictions without spilling the drinks of your clientele etc.

Yes, exactly, I'd rather wait for the content until it can be made meaningful, because otherwise all you're going to get is more of the same complaints. ED is a core framework at the moment, adding something that's a copy-paste of the way things already work is a recipe for more complaints than there are already.

The problem is, I think, that people look at the framework and expect it to be 'feature complete'.

To my mind the game was 'ready for release' in December, meaning it had a gameplay loop, progression and a seamles-ish world to explore and go around. 'Ready for release' is not the same as 'complete'. Especially on a game with a tiered, long-term development plan as I stated in my original post.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem I have with planetary landings is that they will be a lot of work for FD to deliver, but it isn't remotely clear what they would add to the game beyond a change in scenery. There has to be content beyond that, lots and lots of it, to justify FD putting planetary landings into the game.

I'd much rather they focused on getting more missions, better mission progression (with story arcs) and more ships into the game right now.

That's possibly quite true, and I think I'd agree that making use of the new mission framework to make the existing content more engaging is probably a better use of development time ATM.

As far as I've read though, they have separate teams working on the regular updates vs. the expansions? Not sure of the truth of that but we'll see. When I say it's 'the big one; I just meant it's the biggest gaping hole in terms of content that the old games had that ED lacks, not tiat it's THE one thing that must be added 'OMG right nao!'

 

[SteveLaw]

Hmm... let me see.

1) Modern graphics.
2) Quality audio.
3) Fully modelled ship interiors.
4) Accurately modelled galaxy based off current knowledge of star systems
5) Ability to actually travel all the way to the core and beyond (because in FFE your components would expire after a year, leaving you in deep trouble - unless you edited your save).
6) Multiplayer
7) Suppport for 3D.

Probably more, those are just off the top of my head.

They are all more or less cosmetic apart from 6) and that's only an improvement for some players.

 

[Katkon]

OP - while I'd love those things I'd also recommend you do the comparison the other way around. What does ED have that the originals do not? Short answer: a helluva lot! While ED borrows from the originals I think it's fair to say that it's not meant to be a prettier and better-sounding remake.