Federal and Imperial capital ships brawling. (Video included)

[Kolato]

So i know this isn't new, but today i stumbled upon something i had never seen before; A farragut class capital ship and a majestic class interdictor in an all out fight with eachother. (Well technically it wasn't me who found it, but that's not the point)
They kept just shooting at eachother, killing countless small NPC's and some mental type-9s which made for some awesome footage. Now although this is really cool, i cannot wonder but ask if frontier really thought this trough. If these capital ships can fight eachother that must mean that either; There is some sort of weird galactic law which obscures what a war is OR the federation and empire are very badly shattered, and local goverments will declare local war on local goverments with no permission from their power. Anyways, the view was pretty cool, so i made a video of it, enjoy!

[video=youtube;dd9C7Gi9phw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd9C7Gi9phw[/video]

 

[Bacalao]

I just wish they'd try to maneuver around each other instead of just sit still and hammer away endlessly.

 

[h347h]

I just wish they'd try to maneuver around each other instead of just sit still and hammer away endlessly.

Yeah putting them on rails and have them do that would be nice.

 

[JerryLove]

Freespace had a really interesting dynamic for capital ships. The capital ships carried these large, generally spine-mounted guns that were useless against fighters (lousy ROF, charge time, etc), but were designed to kill other capital ships.

X does something similar with how they do gun damage/speed/tracking.

What it creates (and you get a little of this at the fighter level with ED) is a rock-paper-scissors kind of game of escalating ships. Heavy fighter swarms kill corvettes well, which in turn are good ant-cap-ships, which in turn are pretty immune to fighters.

 

[drew]

Freespace had a really interesting dynamic for capital ships. The capital ships carried these large, generally spine-mounted guns that were useless against fighters (lousy ROF, charge time, etc), but were designed to kill other capital ships.

X does something similar with how they do gun damage/speed/tracking.

What it creates (and you get a little of this at the fighter level with ED) is a rock-paper-scissors kind of game of escalating ships. Heavy fighter swarms kill corvettes well, which in turn are good ant-cap-ships, which in turn are pretty immune to fighters.

It's also appalling tactics for the commanders of those vessels to get into range of each other. Lone capital ships simply don't engage other lone capital ships in this fashion. You deploy fighters and bombers at range and somebody wins. Might look cool, but it's ridiculous military strategy without a fleet of supplementary ships. And you never ever sit in someone else's firing solution and just 'soak it up', unless your engines are dead.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Ziljan]

I just wish they'd try to maneuver around each other instead of just sit still and hammer away endlessly.

Dogfighting capital ships???

No. It's silly enough that aircraft carrier sized Anacondas "dogfight" in ED. But actual capital ships doing this would be like two cities trying to outmaneuver each other.

 

[Vasious]

Always make me think that neither the Farragut nor Majestic were designed to combat each other but for bullying small independents into submission

 

[Bacalao]

Dogfighting capital ships???

No. It's silly enough that aircraft carrier sized Anacondas "dogfight" in ED. But actual capital ships doing this would be like two cities trying to outmaneuver each other.

You're right, it's a good thing space isn't full of water, because then it might be silly.

 

[TuxedoSteve]

Dogfighting capital ships???

No. It's silly enough that aircraft carrier sized Anacondas "dogfight" in ED. But actual capital ships doing this would be like two cities trying to outmaneuver each other.

No one said dogfighting, imo 'around' probably implied them slowly circling eachother (attempting to outflank eachother), with more distance between the ships; more akin to age of sail ships that fought via broadside cannons, and the more modern battleships.
(Also, anaconda is half the size of an aircraft carrier )

 

[Bacalao]

No one said dogfighting, imo 'around' probably implied them slowly circling eachother (attempting to outflank eachother), with more distance between the ships; more akin to age of sail ships that fought via broadside cannons, and the more modern battleships.
(Also, anaconda is half the size of an aircraft carrier )

We have a winner! If nothing else it would serve to give some conflict zones a dynamic landscape.

 

[Vasious]

The thing is the weapons on the Capital ships seem to have such a short range, that any manoeuvring at a reasonable speed would have zero effect.

Visually maybe at 20 kms having them circle each other might make sense, but at the few km they sit apart currently, it would still be a brawl with no reason for misses, movement or not.

 

[Bacalao]

The thing is the weapons on the Capital ships seem to have such a short range, that any manoeuvring at a reasonable speed would have zero effect.

Visually maybe at 20 kms having them circle each other might make sense, but at the few km they sit apart currently, it would still be a brawl with no reason for misses, movement or not.

Except to draw fire/attention away from different areas (reinforcements dropping in), try to access softer targets on the opponent (the drives or bridge), or generally present a more protected part of your ship to the opposition. I'm no tactician, but I think beyond all of that if these guys did anything other than just sit perfectly still next to each other the movement would add a huge amount of life to conflict zones.

 

[Sunleader]

I just wish they'd try to maneuver around each other instead of just sit still and hammer away endlessly.

Aye.
Looks really Unepic.

Would not even Mind if they just went Forward. After all there is more than enough Space there.


Moreover they are just Spawned next to each other. And only use their Tertiary Artillery against each other which is usually meant for Anti Fighter Flak Fire.
So they aint really Fighting each other but are more like Spraying each other with AA Guns.



If they really want to Include Capital Fighting they seriously need to Up the Stakes on that AI Behavior of Capital Ships.

 

[2plex]

Where are the nukes?

 

[Siranui]

It's also appalling tactics for the commanders of those vessels to get into range of each other. Lone capital ships simply don't engage other lone capital ships in this fashion. You deploy fighters and bombers at range and somebody wins. Might look cool, but it's ridiculous military strategy without a fleet of supplementary ships. And you never ever sit in someone else's firing solution and just 'soak it up', unless your engines are dead.

But Battleship warfare is much cooler than carrier warfare.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Yeah, it's a nice find but as others have said it's kind of underwhelming. The problem with these scenarios is that they just go on and on and on and on for ages, serving as a nice backdrop for small ship combat but making no tactical sense. The only time two ships of this size should be in direct conflict is if one has jumped in and surprised the other, and then it should be a quick and decisive battle. That's part of why the Damocles video worked so well; the whole thing was over in two and a half minutes with a clear victor emerging after a decisive five second volley.

 

[Vasious]

Except to draw fire/attention away from different areas (reinforcements dropping in), try to access softer targets on the opponent (the drives or bridge), or generally present a more protected part of your ship to the oppositions. I'm no tactician, but I think beyond all of that if these guys did anything other than just sit perfectly still next to each other the movement would add a huge amount of life to conflict zones.

I was meaning at the distance they always drop in next to each other now, leave no room or anything.

The distance between each ship is about half the length of each ship.

I am just saying the need to be moved much father apart before manoeuvring makes sense, or is even possible, as I don't thinking they could turn about each other without looking odd, as close together as they are.

Capital ships with Main batteries should not be within the length of their own vessel to their enemy that is another Capital ship.

Where do they possibly have to manoeuvre?

 

[Bacalao]

I was meaning at the distance they always drop in next to each other now, leave no room or anything.

The distance between each ship is about half the length of each ship.

I am just saying the need to be moved much father apart before manoeuvring makes sense, or is even possible, as I don't thinking they could turn about each other without looking odd, as close together as they are.

Capital ships with Main batteries should not be within the length of their own vessel to their enemy that is another Capital ship.

Where do they possibly have to manoeuvre?

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w346/Vasious27/Untitled.png

Agreed, they are in spitting distance and that just doesn't sit right. I think that would make things much more interesting if they moved, the potential clashes that could come from these ships maneuvering around 10-20km of space (which a CZ easily accommodates), passing each other head on, trying to get at each others thrusters, trading massive broadsides in a monumental ballet of lasers and shrapnel and the mayhem of smaller ships around and between them...it would just be awesome.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Guys.... guys...

We know. We know, ok? In the year 2016, we have surface vessels that are designed to engage and destroy targets that will never, ever come into visual range. Same with fighters. Same with ground-pounding rocket artillery. In a pinch, same with ICBMs (thank goodness they have never been used). In fact, you could say as a rule of thumb that if you can actually see the Bad Guy, somebody done goofed. There is no reason to think that naval tactics in the year 3302 have the slightest reason to revert back to Napoleonic ship-of-the-line tactics. There's no way that it could ever happen. In fact, just the idea of a manned, gigantic behemoth of a Majestic or Farragut-class vessel borders on the absurd. Will line-of-sight even matter? I'm betting not.

So, to those who point out the utter absurdity of two giant capital ships slugging it out with even less elegance than Peter Griffin vs. The Chicken, I say to you: you're right. Totally, unequivocally, 100%, undeniably, indisputably right. It's absurd. It's terrible tactics. The lack of fleet support, swarming fighters, ot even the pretense of engaging at range is an insult to our collective adult intelligence.

It also doesn't matter a whit, because video game.

We didn't drop our jaws in wonder and awe the first time we heard... and then saw our first capital ship entrance into a CZ just to never have them slug it out. We demand plausibility from our space sim, but absolute adherence to reality? No, we don't demand that, nor should we- or else we'd be twisting ourselves into knots over things like time dilation and how exactly the FSD works. Hell, even the idea of agreeing what time it is could take volumes of discussion to hash out.

So again, I say to you: you're right. It's stupid. It's unrealistic. It's an insult to anyone who has ever browsed the back cover of a book on naval tactics.

And it's also just what Elite: Dangerous needs.



EDIT: For those of you who didn't understand my "Peter Griffin vs. The Chicken" reference, I give you this:

[video=youtube;17FVqm1K0lM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17FVqm1K0lM&list=PLclJwm1AmWLniQXvkQNZSqVrmv4PGUCBV[/video]

 

[digitalscream]

It strikes me that this is more for gameplay reasons than anything - if you're in a CZ with two cap ships (which can both pretty much one-shot you) hammering away at each other, it's immeasurably harder to keep out of range and survive if they're moving around. Granted, it's totally immersion-breaking, though.

The problems are that cap ships would have ultra-huge long-range guns, an order of magnitude more fighters and much better tactics...but it'd be practically impossible for a CMDR to stick around within 10km of such a ship.