Feedback from CMDR creator tool (The i am hologram, lore explanation and its placement on UI)

[edgar]

Indeed. Michael Brookes confirms FTL comms in 2014 as a part of the lore (and there are probably earlier mentions too). Then in 2017 that lore is used to explain multi-crew holograms. Seems fine to me.

And it probably seems not fine at all to people who invest themselves in the roleplay and the lore, people who care about the books actually making sense, and who enjoy a self-consistent fictional setting that isn't just apparently made up as it goes along in order to justify "Ease of Access" gameplay. So perhaps YMMV

Elite isn't just a game. It's books, hopefully a tabletop game one day. FDev have long made such a fuss of their detailed setting, and of nurturing their unique community of creators who explore and expand on it. I can't believe they're willing to undermine that with this ill-thought telepresence fudge.

 

[Jdude1]

My only thought while watching was, "Where is the option to make you fatter?"

 

[Faybs]

And what about all the others things in game that could use FTL communications that do not. Bounty vouchers, exploration data and commodities market etc, shouldnt that all change to fit?

Actually, that could be explained. There are some forms of data today (financial and military) that cannot be legally transmitted over any kind of network, so those get transported by a guy carrying an encrypted hard drive in a briefcase. I can see the types of data we have to ferry around being the same sort of thing.

 

[ROSS-128]

In terms of bandwidth, telepresence is much more than displaying an avatar for the person remoting in. You need real-time audio and video streaming so the person on the other end isn't blind and deaf, as well as a closed feedback control loop.

At the barest minimum, you're looking at the netcode for a multiplayer video game. Considering the graphical and audio fidelity the remote player will be looking at, they're probably running more than a 56k modem.

Any comm system that can do that, has more than enough bandwidth to transmit the text and numbers you'd need to view a commodity market or carry out a financial transaction, such as paying fines.

So, online banking and shopping when?

 

[Von Elsner]

Actually, that could be explained. There are some forms of data today (financial and military) that cannot be legally transmitted over any kind of network, so those get transported by a guy carrying an encrypted hard drive in a briefcase. I can see the types of data we have to ferry around being the same sort of thing.

But an individual that can interact with your ship is completely safe/less complicated?

 

[Mephane]

Indeed. Michael Brookes confirms FTL comms in 2014 as a part of the lore (and there are probably earlier mentions too). Then in 2017 that lore is used to explain multi-crew holograms. Seems fine to me.

The hole in the lore is not FTL comms. The hole is the telepresence. You could have instantaneous FTL comms and still not have telepresence, heck you don't even have to explain the absence of telepresence (pun semi-intended) because no one would expect it to happen anyway in a bebop-esque fictional universe about freelance spaceship pilots. But with teleprensence of this quality and at these distances becomes a disruptive technology - it isn't just another fancy sci-fi tech, no, it necessarily becomes an fundamental puzzle piece for the lore and would have ramifications for absolutely everything.

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Actually, that could be explained. There are some forms of data today (financial and military) that cannot be legally transmitted over any kind of network, so those get transported by a guy carrying an encrypted hard drive in a briefcase. I can see the types of data we have to ferry around being the same sort of thing.

Like, publicly available exploration data? Or what mundane cargo hauling contracts the system next door has open?

 

[Obsidian Ant]

And what about all the others things in game that could use FTL communications that do not. Bounty vouchers, exploration data and commodities market etc, shouldnt that all change to fit?

And it probably seems not fine at all to people who invest themselves in the roleplay and the lore, people who care about the books actually making sense, and who enjoy a self-consistent fictional setting that isn't just apparently made up as it goes along in order to justify "Ease of Access" gameplay. So perhaps YMMV

Elite isn't just a game. It's books, hopefully a tabletop game one day. FDev have long made such a fuss of their detailed setting, and of nurturing their unique community of creators who explore and expand on it. I can't believe they're willing to undermine that with this ill-thought telepresence fudge.

I said above that I agree it is inconsitent. I understand why people feel they way they do on both sides. That isn't the point I am trying to make. The point I am making is that Frontier haven't simply come up with the FLT Comms lore in the past few weeks / months. FTL Comms is an established part of the lore for years now (and probably from the very beginning).

It doesn't make sense with certain game mechanics, I entirely agree. But we cannot deny that Frontier have said FTL Comms exist.

It seems to me people are blurring two separate issues together. The existance of FLT Comms, and using FTL Comms as as games mechanic explanation. Two different things.

Its existence within lore has long been entirely established, and that is the only point I want to make.

That Frontier are using it as justification for certain game mechanics is clearly at odds with other game mechanics, but I am not debating that side of the discussion.

 

[Chrysophylax]

Instant data transmission over infinite distances.

"I wanna be an explorer! Let me grab a ship and this thingy that I honk at planets an... Ohh... That job was taken by automated probes that can be manufactured for fractions of what it'd cost to pay a human and are exponentially more efficient at their job...."

"I'm going to be a combat pilot! I'm going to live an exciting, daring life on the edge of my seat figh..... Oh.... Combat ships don't have seats, because being able to remotely control them over any distance means it's more efficient to just take out all of the engineering required to maintain human life and put in more weapons and armor. Doubly so because trained personnel are the most expensive part of any modern military, so it makes sense to treat the ships as expendable assets while keeping your non-expendable human assets a safe distance away from any danger.... Not so exciting or adrenaline filled, the life of a combat pilot, I guess...

"I wanna be a trader! I'm gonna strike it rich loading up my ship with valuable goods and hauling them to other systems to sell for insane profi..... What? I'm not needed because instant data transmission has allowed people to create automated trading algorithms which instantly find the best price from the closest available source and arrange for it's delivery by automated barges before they're even needed? Guess it's back to living in a welfare state for me...."

Etc....

Just that one tiny detail, instant data transmission, fundamentally breaks everything the world of Elite: Dangerous is built upon so badly it can't ever be salvaged.

Obsidian Ant has already been over this with you but I'd like to add my own counterpoint: I don't care about your personal reasons about why you care. I don't think it's inconsistent nor do I think anything gets fundamentally broken, nor do I think this makes the game unplayable.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

The hole in the lore is not FTL comms. The hole is the telepresence. You could have instantaneous FTL comms and still not have telepresence, heck you don't even have to explain the absence of telepresence (pun semi-intended) because no one would expect it to happen anyway in a bebop-esque fictional universe about freelance spaceship pilots. But with teleprensence of this quality and at these distances becomes a disruptive technology - it isn't just another fancy sci-fi tech, no, it necessarily becomes an fundamental puzzle piece for the lore and would have ramifications for absolutely everything.

I'm not arguing that. I agree with the principle of the point you are making.

I was merely pointing out that FTL Comms is not a retcon of lore as a few people are claiming, and I am showing that Frontier have confirmed more than once that it exists within the game.

 

[Von Elsner]

I said above that I agree it is inconsitent. I understand why people feel they way they do on both sides. That isn't the point I am trying to make. The point I am making is that Frontier haven't simply come up with the FLT Comms lore in the past few weeks / months. FTL Comms is an established part of the lore for years now (and probably from the very beginning).

It doesn't make sense with certain game mechanics, I entirely agree. But we cannot deny that Frontier have said FTL Comms exist.

It seems to me people are blurring two separate issues together. The existance of FLT Comms, and using FTL Comms as as games mechanic explanation. Two different things.

Its existence within lore has long been entirely established, and that is the only point I want to make.

That Frontier are using it as justification for certain game mechanics is clearly at odds with other game mechanics, but I am not debating that side of the discussion.

Yup... it is a mess.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Awesome! That's exactly how I look at it too.

(No more rep left to give you unfortunately)

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By "what about it". I was actually asking if you feel that is retconned FLT comms lore too. Or maybe 2014 isn't early enough in the game development.

Except 2014 isn't when Elite's lore starts. You need to go 30 years further back to get to the bottom of that story, correct?

3 decades of world-building getting flushed, thanks to one statement.

 

[Faybs]

But an individual that can interact with your ship is completely safe/less complicated?

That's for control of a single starship, for that they can use standard encrypted protocols. On the other hand, you want zero probability of fraud in stellar cartographics or wartime data,

 

[edgar]

But with teleprensence of this quality and at these distances becomes a disruptive technology - it isn't just another fancy sci-fi tech, no, it necessarily becomes an fundamental puzzle piece for the lore and would have ramifications for absolutely everything.

^This

The introduction of telepresence as an in-universe technology should have the same sort of massive, visible and talked-about ramifications as the introduction of the Frameshift Drive had.

We were even told as recently as the introduction of Skimmers in the game, that these are controlled by remote from a person in a nearby bunker. The limitations around remote control (and therefore telepresence) tech has been repeatedly established by FD. It's not just the SLFs that work to this design framework. This insta-unicorn teleport thing must be a very recent design decision... I guess some suit in an FD meeting ordered it to be instant because of Ease of Access reasons?

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Except 2014 isn't when Elite's lore starts. You need to go 30 years further back to get to the bottom of that story, correct?

3 decades of world-building getting flushed, thanks to one statement.

Yes, quite possibly indeed.

Only point I wanted to make was that FTL Comms wasn't invented recently to justify Holo-Me and Telepresence. It has been used within Elite Dangerous to justify other things too.

 

[Teldja]

That is correct. Although crew that join the ship through telepresence are holograms.

Michael

Understandable but so depressing...

 

[Faybs]

Like, publicly available exploration data? Or what mundane cargo hauling contracts the system next door has open?

Remember that there's a significant amount of prestige associated with discoveries. After the time and risk of going to explore a new region of space, do you want any risk that first discovery credit going to some script kiddie? And there could be all sorts of legal requirements around tamper-proofing in legal contracts, that the easiest and cheapest way to meet them is to not transmit the data even encrypted.

 

[Von Elsner]

That's for control of a single starship, for that they can use standard encrypted protocols. On the other hand, you want zero probability of fraud in stellar cartographics or wartime data,

And what about having a zero probability of the holo-presence signal being hacked/co-opted, I'd imagine that could be a problem.

 

[Faybs]

And what about having a zero probability of the holo-presence signal being hacked/co-opted, I'd imagine that could be a problem.

This is a universe where ships get legally destroyed for loitering over a landing pad too long. They don't care about single starships.

 

[edgar]

Yes, quite possibly indeed.

Only point I wanted to make was that FTL Comms wasn't invented recently to justify Holo-Me and Telepresence. It has been used within Elite Dangerous to justify other things too.

You are conflating two different in-game technologies.

FTL Comms are established as low bandwidth data exchange. Galnet and text and voice comms are contextualized in this tech.

Remote Control aka Telepresence is a different technology, with distinct limitations. This is the tech used by Skimmer operatives to control them from a bunker, as well as the tech apparently used by Ship Launched Fighters, with a 30km range.

Remote Control Telepresence is not simple FTL Comms, as others have mentioned this is a distinct and established in-game technology that involves more than mere audio-visual data, its also situational telemetry and commands and suchlike.

Different techs.

 

[shadragon]

I didn't see the option for a Space Loach accessory scarf.