Fer de lance and expected python nerf

[Kaeda Maxwell]

You've obviously not been on this forum for long but you're both right and I shouldn't write posts with that tone (even if in my head it seemed perfectly in jest and typical of a Mike Evans post).

First of all I am not the whole of frontier, what I can and cannot fix is not known to you so don't demand I fix something I have no place in fixing. Secondly who says we aren't fixing the turret problem? There are many people with many areas of expertise and mine just happens to relate to balancing stats across the game and not programming AI behaviour and exceptions. Lots of fixes for super minor problems will happen way before what you guys consider serious gets fixed because it makes no sense for us to either twiddle our thumbs waiting for that fix or trying to fix something we have no chance of fixing ourselves. Artist will continue to create content, designers will continue to design new features and balance old and programmers will implement new features whilst the real problems get fixed by the right people in time.

The orca and dropships rely on passenger game play to justify their downsides that hasn't been implemented yet unfortunately. For a start I wouldn't have even let the orca be a player flyable ship but that decision wasn't mine to make.

Finally I had no idea what you're being told by others on the forum but you need to understand that things can and will change after the fact. Manoeuvrability wasn't enough of a change to get the python where we wanted it in the end. Would you have preferred a harder manoeuvrability loss in place of a combination of shields and manoeuvrability instead?

Man, are you like saying there's no central brain in the basement at Frontier Developments that you are all plugged into, so that you know exactly what everyone else is doing and has said or written at all times? And makes you share skill sets between everyone employed by the company?

How backward! I mean seriously how do you even run a company like that in 2015?

Next you'll be telling me you're human beings with feelings and stuff. Preposterous!

 

[Raz0rking]

Python can outrun a Viper. Its not slow.

you have clearly never flewn either of both ships

 

[SuBSynk]

you have clearly never flewn either of both ships

Pretty sure the post was a joke, sarcasm doesn't come across well on forums sometimes i suppose... If not then yea the poster obviously has very little experience of either ships

 

[Johnny Spaceboots]

Whinge whinge whinge, moan moan moan etc. Doesn't really inspire us to take what you're saying seriously.

Anyway I don't recall ever saying exactly what I was going to do to address the fact that the python is way better than I intended it to be so chill out, step back and think rationally for a second. -33% to base shield strength is a minor change. No one is going to be suddenly exploding where they were once owning because of that. The game has all the tools available to you to ensure that your shields never get low enough to even fail so if you expect you were always just about to lose your shields in your python before you won the fight yet again then perhaps you want to invest in some more shield cells, a better generator or ensure you're not just taking that many hits.

These people may be complaining about the nerfs, but I'm glad you're taking a serious look at this ship. It was just insane, it was seriously a god ship that was great at everything. Nice work. I agree with pretty much all of your nerfs.

 

[Shanaeri]

here's the new correct one based on Mikes explanations:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Xq2fmxhjfNiwtR2fBR1MAZrwEcjFudSuSjTOLwfcqlM/pubhtml

Thanks. Any chance of updating this with the proposed Python nerf so we can see what's what? The other thing that jumps out at me is how strong viper shields are when measured against how much it costs to get there. I.e In order to get another ship with the same shield power you need to spend many times the cost of the viper to get it. Based on shield power cost I wonder if viper is due a review also for the same reasons as Python? *hides*

 

[RealNC]

I think that the core problem and the reason why people are so scared about the Python getting nerfed, is that the new ships aren't here yet.

The Python *is* a large ship, and therefore should handle like one. However, players are right now missing the option of a better Viper. There should be a nice, expensive, slick and quick fighter between the Viper and Python. A ship with the maneuverability of the current Python (or even a bit better, even) but specialized for battle, like the Viper. Meaning limited internal module space, limited jump range, etc.

But there isn't such a ship. So players are getting frustrated that their only upgrade path is getting a dexterity nerf.

The problem will hopefully solve itself once new ships arrive. The ship upgrade paths should then become better.

 

[Maxwellou]

So, -33% to shield "base stats", what does it means ? Because you didn't said "base" for nothing, am I wrong ?
In other words, does it means that the A6 gets -33% ? or is it something less ? Something more ? Thanks !

Also, I have to admit: I'm very afraid of what the Python will be after the nerf. I'm afraid that the first lone wolf Viper/Cobra will be completely unbeatable. But maybe I'm afraid for nothing.
I want to say: wait & see, maybe the outcome will be perfectly reasonnable, event better ! But until then, I'm still afraid

 

[Shanaeri]

So, -33% to shield "base stats", what does it means ? Because you didn't said "base" for nothing, am I wrong ?
In other words, does it means that the A6 gets -33% ? or is it something less ? Something more ? Thanks !

I meant every value for the Python shield strength gets reduced by a third, whilst the value for the same shield on other ships stays the same. so using the above sheet. Asp with 6a shield is 235, Python is 405 down from 605.
.
Btw as a test run your python with a D5 shield. The estimated value will be about the same as the proposed nerf to a £16m 6A shield.

 

[Ʃsh]

LOL! Stop comparing ships to the anaconda, it's a peice of garbage. If anything needs balance, the anaconda needs a rear/bottom hardpoint because any smaller ship can take it out so easy, while a python only out performs because it has a much better turning arc.

 

[Kremator]

Hey. Im currantly trading in my type7.
I will soon be able to upgrade and I was thinking about going for Python. Ok trader and beast combat what i heard.

My concers are however:
1. Do we expect python to be hevily nerfed?
2. What if fer the lance comes out and is favorible vs the python.

What do you think?

I think you need to post something useful instead of talking about nerfs. Most people complain about the Python because they don't own one and are jealous.

 

[pdizzle]

You've obviously not been on this forum for long but you're both right and I shouldn't write posts with that tone (even if in my head it seemed perfectly in jest and typical of a Mike Evans post).

First of all I am not the whole of frontier, what I can and cannot fix is not known to you so don't demand I fix something I have no place in fixing. Secondly who says we aren't fixing the turret problem? There are many people with many areas of expertise and mine just happens to relate to balancing stats across the game and not programming AI behaviour and exceptions. Lots of fixes for super minor problems will happen way before what you guys consider serious gets fixed because it makes no sense for us to either twiddle our thumbs waiting for that fix or trying to fix something we have no chance of fixing ourselves. Artist will continue to create content, designers will continue to design new features and balance old and programmers will implement new features whilst the real problems get fixed by the right people in time.

The orca and dropships rely on passenger game play to justify their downsides that hasn't been implemented yet unfortunately. For a start I wouldn't have even let the orca be a player flyable ship but that decision wasn't mine to make.

Finally I had no idea what you're being told by others on the forum but you need to understand that things can and will change after the fact. Manoeuvrability wasn't enough of a change to get the python where we wanted it in the end. Would you have preferred a harder manoeuvrability loss in place of a combination of shields and manoeuvrability instead?

Mike, it's refreshing to see the devs put the hammer down; you have absolutely nothing to apologize for or be sorry for. This is your game, pwn the whiners in the face.

 

[Quineloe]

What about Sidewinders masslocking Imperial Clippers btw, is that also intended?

If Sidewinders can masslock my Clipper, can my Clipper get small pads, please?

 

[Slacker]

It's pretty simple: a big ship shouldn't be able to hit a small ship and a small ship shouldn't be able to damage a big ship - without massive mistakes on one side or the other.

 

[Benaron]

Looks like FD will be nerfing all the things.

Thanks for letting me know about the Python nerf, now I won't have to buy one.

In about a year, I expect no one will be PvPing in anything larger than a Cobra/Viper.

Also, when wings come online, five cheap Sidewinders with dumb missiles (for wow factor) will pretty much rule the roost.

 

[SuBSynk]

Looks like FD will be nerfing all the things.

Thanks for letting me know about the Python nerf, now I won't have to buy one.

In about a year, I expect no one will be PvPing in anything larger than a Cobra/Viper.

Also, when wings come online, five cheap Sidewinders with dumb missiles (for wow factor) will pretty much rule the roost.

Well atm for fighter class ships we have only the Viper and Eagle so of course the options seem limited...

Maybe best wait till we have more fighter class ships before making such sweeping judgements?

 

[bassman]

Thanks. Any chance of updating this with the proposed Python nerf so we can see what's what? The other thing that jumps out at me is how strong viper shields are when measured against how much it costs to get there. I.e In order to get another ship with the same shield power you need to spend many times the cost of the viper to get it. Based on shield power cost I wonder if viper is due a review also for the same reasons as Python? *hides*

If the viper had weaker shields it would be in danger of being obsolete since this is one of its primary advantages over the cobra. Also the viper is the most highly specialized combat ship in the game. I also like the fact that its relatively cheap because it gives people a shot at getting a ship worth fighting more established players with fairly early on in their career and I think thats more healthy for the game: better than having to spend your first month of play running away whenever another player appears on your scanner. For the record I havnt flown a viper since early beta so I'm not defending my personal favorite toy - I just think that having a cheapish relatively dangrous ship available enriches the game and unlike a lot of people I dont begrudge newer players having access to something pretty decent at combat and potentially dangerous to me even if my cobra does cost several times as much.

 

[xslam]

I would like if balance become something like this

Spoiler

View attachment 9871

Essence is here:
1 litle influence of cost on chances to win
2 no way to rely on shield/armor strength, pilot should rely on guns and speed instead. Like in real life - he who shoot first is right.

 

[Benaron]

Well atm for fighter class ships we have only the Viper and Eagle so of course the options seem limited...

Maybe best wait till we have more fighter class ships before making such sweeping judgements?

There may have been some sarcasm there lol.

But look at what happened to EvE, hardly anyone flies anything larger than a cruiser anymore. Unless you're in a blob.

 

[Omnar_Grezrad]

all i see is whining about what was and is a war craft ....

elite history states that this was a naval ship ... if it must be totally vonerable from the bum, give it two or 4 aft turrets.

a command battle ship is not a trader poncing as a fighter - thing royal navy frigot or destroyer with it's fill load of torpedos turrets and flack guns / mine layers abd other cool features ...
these are not cheap nor are they crap fighters...

when someone plays near enough 38000000 credits for a war ship dont you think it would be mean to make it a T9 out of spite...

mabee a little slower who knows but go to slow and then how was it a feature in the war's rather than pulsed as a flawed design...

now myself im after an imperial X fighter or one of the other amazing imperial battle ships

are we really going to make a ship that costs as much as this to respawn in a shad below a T9 in combat specs

 

[hanks01]

I've not flown a Python but have fought against player Pythons in my Viper alongside a Cobra pilot and am happy with them as they are. The Python blew me up before the Cobra melted his shields (after he ran out of sheild cells) and he ran, and that was me without an SCB myself. We were using hit and run tactics with our superior speed so whenever he shot one of us the other would go in and carry on working on his shields. It was a decent close fight as I'd hope for a 2 vs 1 against a large ship (sorry, but anything that uses A6 sized stuff is large, even if it can fit on a medium platform.) Too much of a dent on it's maneoverability and we'd have had a field day with it. As it was, all pilots involved (including the Python) had to use a lot of skill to stay in it and it was a satisfying fight for all. I also like the fact that SCBs made the fight longer (and thus more epic) otherwise it wouldn't have lasted more than a minute. The whole "one shield cell charge" per fight is ridiculous and will shorten a potentially epic and fun battle considerably. One bank per ship I can buy into though.

Regarding the missile Viper vs Python video, doesn't really tell us anything about Python/Viper strength other than the Viper kitted out for fighting big ships only, and just took the guy by surprise. If a smaller ship took on the Viper in that same instance the pilot would've run away pretty fast. Missiles are powerful but hard to aim and limited expensive ammo. They only work against really large stuff and surprise tactics leaving you open to virtually anything else.