First-degree murder & Punishment

[Greno Zee]

Even after the introduction of Crime & Punishment there are still lots of complaints about griefing, pointless killing of weak CMDR's and such.
In case there is a will to improve on this, I'd suggest an extension of the current Crime & Punishment system: First-degree murder.

This suggestion covers non-powerplay interaction only.
The whole idea can be summed up like this: If you don't feel like facing people with way more advanced builds than yours who kill others without any game lore linked motivation, you should be pretty safe in open in high security systems.

What is a First-degree murder
A killing of a CMDR in a non-combat scenario (like Conflict Zone) where the victim did not use any offensive measures. Distraction measures like mines, launching SLF and other methods of increasing one's chances of escaping wouldn't count as offensive. In this writing I will refer to it as FDM.
The logic here is: once the victim fires back, it's a fair fight, and standard C&P rules apply.

Jurisdiction
FDM is recognized in all systems controlled by minor factions pledged to the same superpower as the location the FDM took place at. For FDM to be recognized, the location must have at least low security rating (so Anarchies are a free game). Independent systems could share one common jurisdiction (think interpol). Alternatively, FDM in an independent system could be recognized only in systems controlled by the same minor faction as the location of FDM.

Consequences
Committing FDM should stick to a CMDR for a really long time. I'd suggest a month at least.
When entering a jurisdiction that recognizes the CMDR's FDM, after a certain period of time ATR would enter the scene. The higher the security level, the sooner it happens. For high security systems I would imagine around 20 sec. The ATR should not be restricted to local instances only, it should be capable of interdicting a commander. They should have a very high chance of winning the interdiction mini-game.
In addition, once the ATR scenario activates, a note would be stored on the server. This note gets cleared once the scenario plays out either by the CMDR's death or escape from the system. If a CMDR starts Elite: Dangerous, and there is an active note of an ATR scenario on the server, battle log is assumed and punishment is applied as if the CMDR got killed be the ATR.

Punishment
When a CMDR is killed in a jurisdiction that recognizes the FDM, the punishment should be severe. Somewhere near confiscation of the ship and all modules that contributed to the FDM plus an additional costs above the standard C&P fees.

But, to make thing interesting, activities requiring entering populated Anarchies should Anarchies be considerably more profitable than sticking to high-security systems. Elite should offer rewards for risking the encounter with outlawed CMDR's (no, not pirates, they don't kill just for the lolz).

Now don't get wrong, I fully understand that E: D offers very little to people who enjoy only PvP. Well, I'm sure you guys can come up with tons of ideas how to make PvP more interesting without forcing it on anyone flying in Open.
But the fact is E: D is about much more than just PvP and being good at something shouldn't be negated by the inability to face top PvP load-outs.

Before you send me to solo or PG - nope. I don't want to avoid being attacked. But I want the attack to either have an in-game meaning, either be severely punished. Crime is never the victim's fault. Lack of the criminal's morale is.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Mostly a good suggestion, I have some comments however...

1) Ramming should be excluded from this, because if you can cause someone to murder you, the whole system falls down.

2) Your punishment is a little harsh.
Confiscation is probably a bad idea, unless they can recover it fairly quickly somehow.
But I'd suggest that they're simply hunted relentlessly by ATR in the system(s) they committed the FDM(s), for a set time. Even if they've been destroyed already. Essentially they're locked out of those systems, but not the rest of the galaxy.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

What is a First-degree murder
A killing of a CMDR in a non-combat scenario (like Conflict Zone) where the victim did not use any offensive measures. Distraction measures like mines, launching SLF and other methods of increasing one's chances of escaping wouldn't count as offensive. In this writing I will refer to it as FDM.

What about the following scenario:
CMDR A interdicts and attacks CMDR Z. CMDR Z fights back against CMDR A.
CMDR B (clean) shows up in some weak ship with healing lasers, wings up with CMDR A, and only heals them. They don't attack CMDR Z directly at all.
CMDR Z kills CMDR B so that they're able to do damage to CMDR A.

FDM?

Or how about this scenario:
CMDR A (starting locally clean) attacks CMDR Z using engineered ion mines (disable thrusters) and reverb cascade mines (disable shields). Very hostile attack, well-known PvP build, you don't want even one of those mines to go off near you if you can avoid it ... but unless one of them actually hits you it doesn't count as assault.
CMDR Z fires back and kills CMDR A's mine-layer.

FDM?

I'd be very concerned about putting major punishments for non-habitual behaviour since there's lots of ways to troll players - especially ones relatively inexperienced with PvP - into looking like the aggressor, and rigid definitions of what a "legitimate attack" is tend to get messy and full of loopholes. If they get hunted down across an entire superpower and then lose their ship and modules for a first offence, that's going to be more effective than just blowing them up would be. If I'm attacked I want to be able to fire back.

Making the ATR more effective against high-notoriety players, and significantly increasing the cap on notoriety, would probably be more of a deterrent. But the ATR would have to be made a lot more aggressive - I certainly agree that they should proactively show up in supercruise and attempt to interdict, if necessary.

 

[Greno Zee]

Thanks for the replies!

Clearly, more brainstorming is needed to hammer this out.

The punishment is rather a balancing issue, not a fundamental mechanics of my proposal, so sure. It was based on the fact that those pilots who wrack havoc left and right have usually so much money that there is no amount of a fee they would care for. We have a guy in our wing with 20 bil. cr. And he's only a casual trader. I don't dare to imagine how much money some people might have.
But an engineered ship, you don't replace that with a snap of a finger. Maybe in cases of repeated offense?

To address Ion's feedback: I would argue that once you are winged up with a CMDR who's passed the barriers for inflicting FDM, you can't cause that either. that is well measurable. Regarding the miner attack. To my experience vast majority of griefing attacks begin with an interdiction. I;d say an interdicted CMDR would never be charged with FDM.
Of coarse, in cases like station blockades it's hard to define. Not every encounter needs to end in an FDM, you would get charged only in cases where the intent to kill is well measurable.

Those are just early morning patches

 

[Ian Doncaster]

But an engineered ship, you don't replace that with a snap of a finger. Maybe in cases of repeated offense?

It does depend nowadays on the ship build and so on. G4 remote engineering is really cheap fast by comparison to G5 and the typical non-combat trade build won't notice the difference.

It'd be inconvenient for people with full-on PvP builds, but people who are specifically messing with the economy of cheap attacks wouldn't necessarily be that deterred by having to abandon a ship occasionally.

To address Ion's feedback: I would argue that once you are winged up with a CMDR who's passed the barriers for inflicting FDM, you can't cause that either. that is well measurable. Regarding the miner attack. To my experience vast majority of griefing attacks begin with an interdiction. I;d say an interdicted CMDR would never be charged with FDM.

One of the specific cases I'm worried about is as an escort pilot.

Scenario:
- I'm flying a combat ship. I'm winged up with a non-combat ship I'm protecting.
- A (locally clean) combat ship with hostile intent starts trying to interdict the non-combat ship
- I interdict the other combat ship and attack to protect the ship I'm escorting.

At the moment, this is all fine - I'll get a local bounty, and a notoriety point if I kill them, and I'll just have to deal with that once the escort job is over. There'll be consequences, but they're not going to stop me doing it. And not many people would argue that I should have to wait for them to destroy the non-combat ship before I intervene, though I have seen some suggest it.

But from a pure in-game mechanics point of view I've just attacked and destroyed a clean ship which didn't fight back. If they refuse to fire on me - maybe because they're repeatedly trying to rejoin the chase on the non-combat ship, maybe because they're deliberately trying to get me into trouble - that then counts as FDM, which is a lot more serious.

So by trying to prevent attacks on harmless traders/explorers you also make it more difficult for other players to successfully actively defend them.

I'd be very worried that by the time you'd piled on enough patches and details for all the cases that need to be covered, it'd be too complex for any pilot to reliably predict what would count, especially if they weren't familiar with the system.

 

[Greno Zee]

No, not really. You would get charged with FDM only if you destroy the CDMR who tried to interdict your companion and he never landed a shot on you. Once he fights back, no FDM as per my original post.
But if he doesn't fight back, it should be peanuts to disable his ship to such an extent he wouldn't be able to continue the aggression against your trader companion. Plus, once he started the interdiction, he's wanted anyway, what you describe is a standard bounty hunting rule scenario

 

[Greno Zee]

I never mentioned this in the OP but of course, attacking a wanted CMDR would never earn you an FDM.

 

[Insects]

System security should just mean more.
High security should have a more serious NPC response and big player bounty mission messages as soon as the murderer enters the factions high security systems.
Serious consequences for serious offences in those systems for a long period.
Crimes against Cmdr 10x as serious as against NPC.

No security on the otherhand has no response, do as you please in there. Murder encouraged.

Right now the security level hardly makes any difference.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

But if he doesn't fight back, it should be peanuts to disable his ship to such an extent he wouldn't be able to continue the aggression against your trader companion. Plus, once he started the interdiction, he's wanted anyway, what you describe is a standard bounty hunting rule scenario

Once he's started the interdiction it's too late - I can't interdict him then. I have to get in before he starts on that, which means I'm the one picking up the local bounty.

I tend to go for high-damage weapons rather than disabling ones. Anything smaller than an Anaconda and the hull will go before I've taken out enough modules. Might even be true on a bigger ship if it has enough MRPs or not enough HRPs.

Plus I'd have to hang around quite a while to make sure that they weren't just going to reboot/repair and join the chase, which means I can't be protecting the escortee from other threats. It's just a whole bunch of "what if this, what if that, did they actually hit me in that fight and if so was it the right sort of weapon to count as an attack rather than a defense" that there's just not time for if you're trying to keep someone else safe.

 

[StiTch]

As long as CP suggestions are as caveman as "hurr durr, lock up bad man!", it will never be fixed.

 

[Greno Zee]

Taking the Minority Report approach, Ian? [yesnod] Now you too can not be 100% sure he was gonna blow your friend up, can you?
That actually sounds like a very entertaining activity. Say you get a big fat warning about you potentially earning the FDM in case you kill the other guy. Once the conditions clear, the warning goes away and you can proceed with your kill according today's rules.

 

[WesULVD]

I think that's a good idea. The punishment should be harsh for randomly killing someone.

HOWEVER, (and I've written this before) Pirate systems should be introduced. Systems just outside the bubble, or at least on the edges of the bubble where being wanted doesn't get you shot. Being wanted grants you access to their bases. Normal players would get shot on sight when entering those systems. Those systems could get a new system state: Piracy

This would create scenarios where players can choose to get a career in crime and get rewarded for it. Like murder and stealing shipments. And pick up missions to lower INF in legal to trigger Piracy in those systems

And it would create the possibility for missions to go and clean those systems from pirates in the name of minor factions that then can take over the system.