Perhaps another one as a salmon for various bears...
Fish as Special Effects
- Thread starter Horser01
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I think that's less likely as in Europe they don't allow live feeding of vertebrates
In most countries (at least in Europe and Australasia) it’s illegal (and rightly so) to feed live vertebrates (or cephalopods) to other animals.
...but it's possible for zoos to get an official exemption to do so and there are cases in which they do. Prionailurus viverrinus does not eat dead fish.
I know it's a matter of fact in Germany and Austria (which both represent nearly the half of the European zoos)
btw, last year the German Bundestag declined a petition to allow live feeding in certain cases, with the explanation that it's unnecessary to change a law, which already allows local authorities to give exceptions after verify the individual case.
Yes, it has always been possible to get an permission, the petition was rather pointless...but part of our modern world...people sign stuff without informing themself.
Fishing cats eating dead fish can't be a 'fact' in one part of the world and not a fact somewhere else. Getting exemption to stimulate more natural behaviours is reasonable if it's possible to do that, but to say they "don't eat dead fish" is just factually incorrect.
In many places, of course, fish and crustaceans are excepted from animal rights laws, pretty much only to protect the commercial fishing industry. This is also how aquariums get away with some dodgy dealings in terms of animal collecting, and it's probably why some zoos in Europe have an easier time getting exemption to feed their animals live fish. I'm no legal expert, though.
Small mice etc. dead - they just dangle/dance the feed in front of the snake to simulate movement. A live mouse can really damage your snake. (domesticated snakes are different than wild ones when it comes to ) Or they just microwave it before feeding.
It takes some effort but the people I know that have snakes, start this as early as they can - they will get used to it.
But on-topic:
But simple fish animation as special effects (without enrichment) is something that would be nice. Don't think you need to overcomplicate this. Just for looks
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There are a select few species of snakes where this has proven impossible that I know are usually fed live prey, but in general you are right that snakes aren't as precious as some people think and are perfectly capable of eating dead food.
I think a lot of people underestimate how trainable certain animals are. Even something as 'underdeveloped' as a tarantula can at least learn when dinner time is if it's fed on a regular schedule.
I guess we have a little misunderstanding, the "fact" was only referring to the part that there are exceptions legally possible.
That you can train animals beyond their natural behavior, sometimes even carnivores to be vegetarians, is nothing I would deny. But it’s still not their natural behavior.
I guess it's about what a zoo/organization would like to achieve, where are the animals from and how old they are when they come to them and so on.
I guess talking about the industry and their influence is a completely different topic .Which btw are not generally excluded by the law, but sadly are not really punished if they violate it.
But the power of the industry is a worldwide matter....
However, from what have seen and what they told me in one of the local Zoos here, they raise the living fish they feed itself and do not have a general exclusion to do what they want…it’s a case based authorization and needs to be renewed frequently. [/QUOTE]
I know in the US it's not...a couple days ago the Cincinnati Zoo filmed the release of a large number of smaller fish into one of the penguin exhibits as an enrichment thing.
Canada as well. They are careful about feeding 'cute' things like rabbits, but mice, fish and lizards are often fed right in front of guests. They still do feed larger things like rats and rabbits live, they just do it behind the scenes. The laws only apply to the treatment of the animal before it's...um...disposed of, or for larger animals such as livestock. (And of course pets like dogs and cats). It's considered healthy and encouraged among the resident animals.
I wouldn't mind my animals eating them as enrichment, as it is a natural thing, but I understand that a lot of people wouldn't like it. We could have a turn off option, just a play and not kill option, or it could be purely decorative. I'd be happy with any of it as long as I get the extra decoration. Lol.
Yea I would not like to see it. This is natural but in the wild. Prey in the wild has a chance to escape, to fight and to live. That is what I call natural, the predator and the prey both have chance to survive. If the predator succeed, it will kill the prey and survive, however it not always goes like this. If the prey escapes, it lives another day while the predator might starve and die. There you have the survival of the strongest.
However in captivity the live prey does not have a chance, it has nowhere to escape. Its a death sentence and it is not fair play. I find it highly disturbing. Not the part of death itself, but the part of no equal chance and the stress of the prey animal.
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I was just pointing out the reasoning behind it being allowed in this particular country. I do agree with your point, but I also think that things like rodents and lizards could get out of most fences no problem, when outdoors (obviously not in a sealed terrarium or something). In real life, they actually could escape and live another day. Especially if they're native species. We have a bird of prey center near me that feeds live prey. If the bird doesn't get it quick enough, it goes through the chain link fence and the bird goes hungry. Fish that live in a lake or pond have many ways of evading predators and could continue to live and breed on their own no problem if they evade capture, even inside an exhibit. In game, enrichment items that are left too long go bad and have to be cleaned up. It costs money to replace. If fish or lizards or something was introduced as an enrichment item, instead of going rancid and being thrown out, they could simply 'escape' or disappear.
What I'm trying to say is that I agree with you in that the death itself is natural but they way they do it often isn't. I do feel bad for the prey regardless. But to me the point of enrichment items is to encourage natural instincts, behaviors, and attitudes in captive animals. Giving the prey a fighting chance is a part of that, as is the predator learning what it means to fail. If we release that predator to the wild, it needs to go to a rehab center before it can be released to learn to fend for itself. I prefer to play my zoos as already teaching those animals the needed skills to survive, even if their survival never becomes that precarious. They are in a cage being taken care of, but I rarely give them actual food dishes, only food enrichment items. They have to work for their food. To me live food's not that different. They catch it and eat. Or they fail and go hungry.
But as I said, I'd be just as happy if they were purely decorative too.
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