Uh huh. Bet you wake up screaming most nights eh.. Cold sweats, flashbacks, jumping at shadows, the works..
Oh, the humanity.
Frontier: Can you please define your understanding of "Limited"
- Thread starter Titus Balls
- Start date
Uh huh. Bet you wake up screaming most nights eh.. Cold sweats, flashbacks, jumping at shadows, the works..
Oh, the humanity.
Why? More money for Frontier, people get to enjoy the same thing you've got. Its not like you had to do anything special to earn it.
This. Plain and simple. While it might technically not wrong in the end it is just decieving and not a nice way to threat loyal fans who by those skins.
I call shenanigans! I really can't say I approve of them ripping people off... but I do want new ships and expansions, so I'll let it slide!
Now we just have to work out if the slow release of content is due to them needing more money or because they are just too busy rolling around in the phat stacks they've already made and can't be bothered doing any work
Now we just have to work out if the slow release of content is due to them needing more money or because they are just too busy rolling around in the phat stacks they've already made and can't be bothered doing any work
https://twitter.com/elitedangerous/status/516926197738242049
On that they were very specific, it was for the 30th Anniversary celebrations. That this would be the only chance to get it. To turn back on that would cement a lot of distrust in Frontier.
The reason not to do it, is because it allows Frontier the option to continue doing short-run sales of pricey limited edition merch in the future... skins, bobbleheads, etc. People will pay for things they can't easily afford at a certain time, when a "limited" item is actually limited and won't come back. That's a valid marketing tactic.
Bring back the Cobra Wireframe, which was sold for a specific commemoration event and had a very clear statement of limited availability during that timeframe, and they can never sell a limited edition again. Not with a straight face, anyway. People who would otherwise have to stretch to afford it, will just wait for the skin to come around next time. Marketing opportunity lost.
In other words, don't try to scam your customers. They (and the Internet at large) have long memories.
Why?
Because you pay some extra money for a LIMITED item.
Let's take f.e. wine. Some people buy a bottle and pay lots of money because it is rare (weather that's a good motive is another thing though).
Let's say there only exist 200 bottles of a particular year and you buy 1 of those for 200 euro.
The next day you go to the store and find out they sell the same wine there for 20 euro.... and the manager tells you the supply is UNLIMITED.
I can assure you you will feel ripped of.
In this case i see 2 major flaws with Fronters business practices.
1. The word LIMITED is not explained. Yet you give the customer the impression it is the only chance they will have to buy this item.
2 options to go from there: or you don't sell the item again or you sell it again but with a bigger pricetag to keep previous buyers happy that they at least got a discount for an object that was tagged 'limited' in the first place.
2. It's a big slap in the face for loyal fans who are 'naive' and Frontier uses this to earn some extra cash.
Of course they will say this and blabla that etc... but in the end a limited online object should not be put on sale for a second time at a reduced price. No excuses are well enough to justify this.
and now i'm gonna read Frontiers response....
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BTW..this discussion reminds me of the 'FDEV What's your definition of an MMO?' threads. The technicalities of modern game merchandising. ;P
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Limited time vs. limited edition. Similar words with vastly different marketing meanings.
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Limited time vs. limited edition. Similar words with vastly different marketing meanings.
I think the worse mistake they made during this period was to do the the time limited sales. It upset a lot of people unnecessarily, including me.
Whilst I understand the argument and point you make are we really saying that the rest of the community shall never be able to enjoy having such an iconic Cobra skin? Seems a rather selfish kind of view imo.
Argh, no no no no. There's nothing 'technical' or 'losing face' about it - If you use the term 'Limited Time Offer' with a actual time limit, re-selling the item beyond that point can actually be legally challenged. Is this difficult or something?
The contrast is right there with the terms used - The Stars & Stripes Viper should NOT be sold beyond the date described (nor for that matter, should the Wireframe Cobra come back) because to do so means you misrepresented the terms of sale at the time, i.e you generated more sales by implying it would never be available again. The Chrome Cobra, by contrast, uses the word 'limited' but only to describe the number of styles they intend to make; They can sell this as long as they like, at as many price points as they like.
People, please, just get this basic concept.
E: Just to clarify, what Frontier mean by 'Limited' is totally, utterly irrelevant. The UK has LAWS FOR THIS NONSENSE.
The contrast is right there with the terms used - The Stars & Stripes Viper should NOT be sold beyond the date described (nor for that matter, should the Wireframe Cobra come back) because to do so means you misrepresented the terms of sale at the time, i.e you generated more sales by implying it would never be available again. The Chrome Cobra, by contrast, uses the word 'limited' but only to describe the number of styles they intend to make; They can sell this as long as they like, at as many price points as they like.
People, please, just get this basic concept.
E: Just to clarify, what Frontier mean by 'Limited' is totally, utterly irrelevant. The UK has LAWS FOR THIS NONSENSE.
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Yeah I remember.. I was here and it took me a good week to calm down about the whole affair. However, I can see absolutely no reason why the skin shouldn't be on sale again at some point. It shouldn't remove anyones enjoyment of it who've already got one.
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I think most (certainly I) get that - I also understand the difference in limited series.
The issue is that Frontier used the exact words "limited time" when the originally sold the flag skins.
2 months later, after withdrawing them from sale they put them back up AND at 1/2 the cost (£1.50 vs £3 when they were marked as "limited time")
Ed Lewis also said on this thread that after this mistake they would be withdrawn from sale on the 1st December.
They are still up on the store. Frontier have prior use of mis-using words in their marketing speak and being a bit sneaky (intentionally or not, might just be naivety) but it instills little trust for me personally to hand over £10 for one skin again as I can't be sure the value for me personally will hold. And I know others do feel that way too.
Same for me, I even started that thread too: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41663
The issue is Frontier have decided to go that route, so they should stick to it and not change the rules half way through.
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Yes and I never said that it should then be limited. I merely started I don't think Frontier deserve my £10 this time. Limited or not.
And why are you getting your knickers in a twist? As YOU already state they should not be selling the Stars & Stripes, or any flag skin for that matter, yet even after stating they would remove them they still haven't.
Not only that but it's actually poor marketing - if you want to make that £10 mean something to the customer then do something to reflect that. As it is, it's not any better than a £2/£3 skin if it continues to be sold, and the way it's applied is rather strange.
For example there was a Chrome Viper skin, maybe appeared for a couple of weeks - then the Gold Viper skin appeared in it's place and has been sold for months now.
Now the Cobra Chrome skin is there - which is it? Will it be sold for a couple of weeks, or a couple of months?
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That was end of November 2014. That mentioned Monday was December, 1st. Still before official launch date.
The first 'limited time offer' in September and even the promise the take the Viper flag out of the store in December still pretty limited the people buying the flags to Alpha and Beta backers, and perhaps some pre-order guys. This actually makes them special.
At least I bought some of them to show off in game with my paint job clearly stating to other players that I was already there back then and got these, when they were available. Well...
There are two problems I have with this.
First one is the interpretation of limited. I totally agree with Titus on that.
The second problem is even more important to me.
It's that Edward, in his official position as community manager, lied to us. 'Being honest' he told us, that the Viper flag paint jobs would be removed from the store, and that FD had decided on not putting them up again. Yet, they are still on the store. Right now. Almost two months later.
This is killing trust.
I gave FD a lot of money, because I trusted them to make a great Elite.
They promised to make an offline mode. They did not. (I understand the reasons, and I don't have a problem with this decision, though).
They promised to take down the Flags. They did not.
They promised to not run them again. They do run them right now.
Can we still trust them?
Won't they run the 'limited' Cobra Wireframe again?
Won't they run the 'limited' Chrome Viper or Cobra again?
Will they deliver walking in ships?
Will they deliver landing on planets?
Will Alpha and Beta backer really get extensions for free?
Or is 'lifetime expansion pass' interpreted as 'lifetime of Elite 1.x', and as soon as there will be a 2.x it's not free for Alpha and Beta backers anymore?
Or does 'The Lifetime Expansion Pass includes automatic access to all major Elite: Dangerous expansion packs' mean that as soon as they rename these extensions to 'addons' those features are not covered by our backing tiers anymore?
The simple fact that frontier has not been honest to us, their backers, that in fact actually made making this game possible in the first place, kills trust. And I strongly dislike that fact. I feel my trust crumbling. This makes me sad.
It's not just about how people might feel who bought that skin based on the description. The main issue is how it would limit future marketing options.
On a purely business level, having decided to go down that path in the first place, Frontier needs to maintain credibility if they ever want to sell limited editions in the future. The entire idea of offering a limited edition, is based on trusting that the company means what it says.
I understand where you are coming from, however, a limited time sale of something doesn't mean a one time sale. However, I am not going to keep mucking about with this idea. Out of curiosity, did you verify they have remained up since the 1st? Or were they taken down? Then subsequently put back up?
Or is FDEV taking the tact they won't do this again, but since the mistake has been made with the flags..in for a penny, in for a pound? Once they come down they won't be sold again...but since the mistake has been made it doesn't hurt to keep them up longer.
Personally, I hate that this has come back up. There's also legal differences between allowable sales offerings between countries. In the US we are used to this kind of trickery. Elsewhere, apparenltly, not so much. marketing like this is kind of like having a fight with your spouse...you can be right, or you can be happy. FDEV might be doing the 'right' thing, however, will it keep them happy in the long term.
That's addressed in this post: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65881&p=1605350&viewfull=1#post1605350
I understand in the US this fast-and-loose use is allowed, and you can kind of get away with it here (the McRib and other "limited time" offers that keep coming back are prime example) but it doesn't quite work for digital items.
In some cases Frontier have been loose with the language, in others they have been very specific - only to turn round within two months and go back on that wording.
It's not like, say an original run of a physical item - and then second, third runs etc. With a physical item (say a Star Wars toy) you bought that first run and kept it in the box. A few years later they sell a second run cheaper - that's OK because the physical item retains value being a first run.
With digital items, this is not possible.