Frontier. Please make a PVE mode to this game.

[excalibus]

Excrement? wow.. Thats pretty harsh language. Nevertheless you wont find me reporting (crying to mom and dad) about how you express your views. Fine by me. I do disagree mind you.

don't make me laugh.... or did you miss the clarification in the quote of what I said... reporting for what??? there is nothing to report as far as I can see, I have not abused anyone, not sunk down to the level of personal attacks against you, or anyone else in this thread unless I am seriously and sorely mistaken...

Yes excrement is a word, that is A) in context of what I was responding to, is not disallowed by the bad word filter, and is clearly not directed at any individual or forum member, and has not been used in a way that is indeed clearly an insult...

anyway it would be nice if we could actually get the discussion back on track and discuss the OP's topic instead of these annoying derailments....

 

[Mengy]

The truth of the matter is simply this: an official PvE mode incorporated into the game would just be one more option for players to play the way they want to. It wouldn’t ruin the game any more than Mobius existing has, it won’t break it, it doesn’t make current Open any less of whatever it is now, it’s just quite simply one more option to allow players to play the way they want to. It would be quite literally an official Mobius mode but enforced by the game code itself and easily available at the start menu when logging in, and far less susceptible to griefing than Mobius currently is.

The positives of any official PvE mode far, FAR outweigh any negatives. But then this argument has never been about that: it’s about player choices. Any and every argument against a possible PvE mode is an argument against player choices. Period. Whether it stems from a selfishness to keep players in Open, or whether it comes from fear of change, or if it comes from a hatred of Mobius and the playstyle it allows, the entire crux of the debate is one of player choices.

All 70+ pages of this thread can be summarized in one sentence: If you like players having choices to play the way they want to then you are for the PvE mode; but if you don’t want players to have choices then you are against a PvE mode.


So the real question of the debate is this: are you for playstyle choices, or against playstyle choices?

 

[excalibus]

I think you nailed it Mengy have some rep

 

[Shaamaan]

I still think they (FD) have a very hard choice to make, that being, "Do we (FD) add a C&P and hope (as per DB's dream) that players will flock to open as is". Personally, I think it will not do any of that because I believe they (the players) will not trust it or they (FD) will half bake it (in some eyes).
It's just a big merry-go-round of them vrs us vrs them, and no one is stepping off even though we're all dizzy.
Again, personally it has put me in ED grieving mode (pardon the pun), the anger has passed and now the "F' it all, it's not worth it" depression is setting in... Soon the "can't be playing" will follow. I love how FD make windows and we take turns at smashing the one's we don't like (be it that some of the said windows leak or have broken handles).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yub3-Ow7tBs

Aside from the personal feelings on this whole topic, I do believe that a C&P system, while needed in general, is NOT the answer to this particular problem. Those players who do not wish to engage in hostile activities involving other players won't be persuaded by a C&P system. Secondly, those who seek to minimize risk by playing in Mobius / Solo also won't go into Open, as the risks will remain. Finally, like you say, a good C&P system is a delicate and complex things to create... I'm fearful that gankers will simply find new ways to game the system. It won't stop griefers ramming Eagles / Sidewinders down people "for the lolz", nor will it stop a simple save-clear + Freewinder + basic gear for the purpose of being as annoying as possible.

 

[NeilF]

It will happen, I have no doubt of that. The only question is when.

Three modes (without proper consideration/attention) have already hobbled the game... Another variation will not help...

As others have said, a properly thought out Crime and Punishment system for Open would help, followed by some actual PvE & PvP gameplay depth improvements (eg: combat scenarios for PvE and PvP) would help too...

The first it likely, the second seems unfortunately well down their list

 

[Shaamaan]

Three modes (without proper consideration/attention) have already hobbled the game... Another variation will not help...

Wait, what? Hobbled? How? [blah]

As others have said, a properly thought out Crime and Punishment system for Open would help, followed by some actual PvE & PvP gameplay depth improvements (eg: combat scenarios for PvE and PvP) would help too...

Everyone can have their own opinion, so don't take this the wrong way, but I do find it really fun how your post is directly below mine, where I think a C&P system, while needed, isn't the solution to the problem at hand.

The first it likely, the second seems unfortunately well down their list

I'd argue even a C&P system is unlikely. I don't buy the notion that some karma system based around a single magic number is enough...

 

[Cosmos]

Friendly hint

Nothing about this forum is friendly.. And really, stop misrepresenting my views. If I ever rage there will be no doubt. I have yet to lose my temper.

 

[lokvette]

The truth of the matter is simply this: an official PvE mode incorporated into the game would just be one more option for players to play the way they want to. It wouldn’t ruin the game any more than Mobius existing has, it won’t break it, it doesn’t make current Open any less of whatever it is now, it’s just quite simply one more option to allow players to play the way they want to. It would be quite literally an official Mobius mode but enforced by the game code itself and easily available at the start menu when logging in, and far less susceptible to griefing than Mobius currently is.

The positives of any official PvE mode far, FAR outweigh any negatives. But then this argument has never been about that: it’s about player choices. Any and every argument against a possible PvE mode is an argument against player choices. Period. Whether it stems from a selfishness to keep players in Open, or whether it comes from fear of change, or if it comes from a hatred of Mobius and the playstyle it allows, the entire crux of the debate is one of player choices.

All 70+ pages of this thread can be summarized in one sentence: If you like players having choices to play the way they want to then you are for the PvE mode; but if you don’t want players to have choices and want to force them to play in Open and conform to your own style of play, then you are against a PvE mode.


So the real question of the debate is this: are you for playstyle choices, or against playstyle choices?

it took nearly 1100 post's but we have a winner. rep incoming.

 

[NeilF]

Wait, what? Hobbled? How? [blah]

For example, how about every player in the game tries and prevents me from going to a specific station? Tens of thousands of ships lie between me and my mission goal, and I could complete it in a Hauler, because they can't stop me... Now extrapolate this across every mechanics in the game where it's an issue. eg: I have a huge bounty on my head, from killing both NPCs and CMDRs and yet if I choose, no other CMDR can even see me!

And imagine in the future if the games tries to actually finally improve the depth/content of its missions/tasks/scenarios... This issue will continue to raise its head.

ps: I know some individuals wish to play PvE, which is fine. And the game could allow them to do this (in OPEN) via a strict Crime and Punishment system. Allowing CMDRs to simply be invisible while having not only the same affect on the galaxy (but in reality being rewarded due to less risk) "hobbles" the game IMHO.

Everyone can have their own opinion, so don't take this the wrong way, but I do find it really fun how your post is directly below mine, where I think a C&P system, while needed, isn't the solution to the problem at hand.

I'd argue even a C&P system is unlikely. I don't buy the notion that some karma system based around a single magic number is the solution...

IMHO:-
1) Sort out Crime and Punishment so repeat mindless destruction is no longer really feasible.
2) Actually add some PvE and PvP combat scenarios/mechanics.
3) Give piracy some TLC, and more about illegal activity than an excuse to destroy CMDRs.
4) Penalise combat logging if feasible.

All these are tied togethor...


In reality? I see (1) being half done... and that's about it... I just do not see any true depth being added, just more self contained mini-game elements over and over.

 

[Commander Debic]

That is required, irrespective of the PvE mode request.

Dam it Liqua once again one of your posts had me trying to squash the little bug before recognizing it is your signature.

 

[Anopheles]

It shows the essential lack of effort PvEers are willing to put into the game when a lot of them complain about the self imposed workload Mobius puts himself through and yet no one thinks to start another massive pve group....

Rather, they'd like the game to do everything for them, while not being prepared to learn essential game systems and tactics. This isn't 'git gud' it's more of a heartfelt l2p and get off your butt.

 

[MarkAusten]

Aside from the personal feelings on this whole topic, I do believe that a C&P system, while needed in general, is NOT the answer to this particular problem. Those players who do not wish to engage in hostile activities involving other players won't be persuaded by a C&P system. Secondly, those who seek to minimize risk by playing in Mobius / Solo also won't go into Open, as the risks will remain. Finally, like you say, a good C&P system is a delicate and complex things to create... I'm fearful that gankers will simply find new ways to game the system. It won't stop griefers ramming Eagles / Sidewinders down people "for the lolz", nor will it stop a simple save-clear + Freewinder + basic gear for the purpose of being as annoying as possible.

I have always said that game players are endlessly inventive and will find and take advantage of any loophole or bug in the game. For me this means that even a good C&P system will not solve the problem just postpone it since no complex software is bug free.

So, that leave the Open PvE system which, although I'll not be using it and don't really have any interest in such a mode, does seem to address the issues of those players who wish co-operative PvE and to eschew any form of combat PvP.

As far as I can tell the arguments against the OP broadly speaking boil down to variations of:

"You can have that in Open so it's not necessary",
"This will be bad for Elite",
"This will fragment the player base",
"Open isn't that bad",
"It will be the downfall of Open",
"it will never happen so don't bother asking for it".

Did I miss anything?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

It shows the essential lack of effort PvEers are willing to put into the game when a lot of them complain about the self imposed workload Mobius puts himself through and yet no one thinks to start another massive pve group....

Rather, they'd like the game to do everything for them, while not being prepared to learn essential game systems and tactics. This isn't 'git gud' it's more of a heartfelt l2p and get off your butt.

are you being wilfully obtuse? what would be the point for starting another massive private PvE group, if the goal is the have the PvE oriented players together?. getting players who have ZERO interest in PvP out of open in theory should be good even for the PvPers... going on the complaints on here it sounds like almost everyone seems to Clog every time they are "interacted with" by a PvPer........ get those players who do not want PvP, but DO want multiplayer with like minded folk, and who expected to be able to do as much due to it being listed in the kickstarter out of Open and into OpenPvE and maybe PvPers will see less clogging.

 

[jasonbarron]

it took nearly 1100 post's but we have a winner. rep incoming.

Actually, even though I really like Mengy and respect him in general, I completely disagree with a bunch of what you quoted there. Go figure.

 

[Han_Zen]

The truth of the matter is simply this: an official PvE mode incorporated into the game would just be one more option for players to play the way they want to. It wouldn’t ruin the game any more than Mobius existing has, it won’t break it, it doesn’t make current Open any less of whatever it is now, it’s just quite simply one more option to allow players to play the way they want to. It would be quite literally an official Mobius mode but enforced by the game code itself and easily available at the start menu when logging in, and far less susceptible to griefing than Mobius currently is.

The positives of any official PvE mode far, FAR outweigh any negatives. But then this argument has never been about that: it’s about player choices. Any and every argument against a possible PvE mode is an argument against player choices. Period. Whether it stems from a selfishness to keep players in Open, or whether it comes from fear of change, or if it comes from a hatred of Mobius and the playstyle it allows, the entire crux of the debate is one of player choices.

All 70+ pages of this thread can be summarized in one sentence: If you like players having choices to play the way they want to then you are for the PvE mode; but if you don’t want players to have choices and want to force them to play in Open and conform to your own style of play, then you are against a PvE mode.


So the real question of the debate is this: are you for playstyle choices, or against playstyle choices?

Choice is nice, but the devil is in the details. The details in this case are 'enforced by the game code itself'.

Currently all modes use the same game mechanics. This type of Open-PvE requires a hole new set of rules. To make it 100% grief proof, without making it silly is quite a lot of work.
I doubt FD would allow a game mode where player ships are allowed to just pass through each other. It would look very unappealing.
Other grief prof collision mechanics are complex. They will have to be developed and tested at the expense of something else. Not just once, but at every release.

The question is really, is it worth it for something we in reality already have with private groups. We already have a multiplayer environment with little to no risk of griefing.

Do we really need this 'official acceptance' of PvE multiplayer?

 

[Shaamaan]

For example, how about every player in the game tries and prevents me from going to a specific station? Tens of thousands of ships lie between me and my mission goal, and I could complete it in a Hauler, because they can't stop me... Now extrapolate this across every mechanics in the game where it's an issue. I have a huge bounty on my head, from killing both NPCs and CMDRs and yet if I choose, no other CMDR can even see me!

I'd argue that's a good thing, not bad. It's a conscious design choice. Basically, the game was designed with the mindset that the AI and solo mode represents the baseline. What other players want to do with you is, in this case, irrelevant (bar reporting you for harassment / exploits / cheats / abuse, of course). I'll agree to disagree that this might be subjective, however, and I see your point.

But then I'd argue that since the game already has 3 modes, a 4th one won't make things worse in this regard. The divide has already been made. FD would not only need to implement a C&P system, they would also need to remove all modes but Open - something which is very very VERY unlikely to happen.

And imagine in the future if the games tries to actually finally improve the depth/content of its missions/tasks/scenarios... This issue will continue to raise its head.

I'm not sure I follow. While some interesting things are indeed possible if we were to have only ONE mode, the reality is that these aren't the only ways to improve depths in ED. I.e. you don't NEED a single mode for more depth.

ps: I know some individuals wish to play PvE, which is fine. And the game could allow them to do this (in OPEN) via a strict Crime and Punishment system. Allowing CMDRs to simply be invisible while having not only the same affect on the galaxy (but in reality a rewarded one due to less risk) "hobbles" the game IMHO.

IMHO:-
1) Sort out Crime and Punishment so repeat mindless destruction is no longer really feasible.
2) Actually add some PvE and PvP combat scenarios/mechanics.
3) Give piracy some TLC, and more about illegal activity than an excuse to destroy CMDRs.
4) Penalise combat logging if feasible.

All these are tied togethor...

In reality? I see (1) being half done... and that's about it... I just do not see any true depth being added, just more self contained mini-game elements over and over.

I've already listed two possible issues which a C&P won't solve:
- Suicide gankers crashing in stations - yes, there's the speed limit, but it IS silly, it IS done "for the lulz" and to grief people. In theory a C&P should stop it. It won't.
- Clear save, be as annoying as possible - with the possibility of having many accounts and / or dedicated groups, it's very easy to get a hold of a relatively powerful ship for few credits. Whilst Engineering mods wouldn't be available in this case, the potential for abuse is plentiful.

Don't get me wrong. I DO think a C&P system would be fine (especially if it brings back a piracy profession, both PvP AND PvE piracy). I just don't think it'll solve the issues raised by the OP.

 

[lokvette]

It shows the essential lack of effort PvEers are willing to put into the game when a lot of them complain about the self imposed workload Mobius puts himself through and yet no one thinks to start another massive pve group....

Rather, they'd like the game to do everything for them, while not being prepared to learn essential game systems and tactics. This isn't 'git gud' it's more of a heartfelt l2p and get off your butt.

Just when I thought the forums couldn't get any worse and I dont even use the ignore function. if this isn't troll bait I dont know what is...really...just really...

But to answer the statement, I play very well thank you the game doesn't do everything for me so as for L2p ..ahhh i see you want me or people in general to learn to play a game style that most of those posting here dont have any interest in within the game that is ED.

Actually, even though I really like Mengy and respect him in general, I completely disagree with a bunch of what you quoted there. Go figure.

Each to their own and all that, and I'm figuring the best way to stop myself from coming back to this thread....

 

[jasonbarron]

Choice is nice, but the devil is in the details. The details in this case are 'enforced by the game code itself'.

Currently all modes use the same game mechanics. This type of Open-PvE requires a hole new set of rules. To make it 100% grief proof, without making it silly is quite a lot of work.
I doubt FD would allow a game mode where player ships are allowed to just pass through each other. It would look very unappealing.
Other grief prof collision mechanics are complex. They will have to be developed and tested at the expense of something else. Not just once, but at every release.

The question is really, is it worth it for something we in reality already have with private groups. We already have a multiplayer environment with little to no risk of griefing.

Do we really need this 'official acceptance' of PvE multiplayer?

And if it isn't 100% grief proof, or at least 99.99%, the players who desire the protections afforded by this kind of mode aren't going to be happy and they'll probably just play in PG or Solo anyway.

 

[Shaamaan]

As far as I can tell the arguments against the OP broadly speaking boil down to variations of:

"You can have that in Open so it's not necessary",
"This will be bad for Elite",
"This will fragment the player base",
"Open isn't that bad",
"It will be the downfall of Open",
"it will never happen so don't bother asking for it".

Did I miss anything?

Yeah, we've already had the obligatory "git gud" in one form or another...

 

[Zieman]

Nothing about this forum is friendly.. And really, stop misrepresenting my views. If I ever rage there will be no doubt. I have yet to lose my temper.

Stop? I haven't even started yet! No worries mate, I'm all for keeping it civil, even if I disagree quite often.

About losing temper - well, it might be a cultural thing, but to me many passionate posters barge in threads very agressively.
Which reminds me of a discussion a couple of decades ago: we had some French foreign students in the uni I was attending, their idea of a nice lively discussion looked like a fist-fight-in-the-making to us. Wouldn't have been surprised if a lively debate had caused someone to call the police...