Frontier. Please make a PVE mode to this game.

[sewerratuk]

That somehow makes it ok does it? That a ganker/griefer has effectively voided (I prefer 'stolen') the time someone may have spent in-game, but if the victim had drawn enjoyment from that time/progress lost the ganker/griefer's actions are more excusable/acceptable? Good grief......

My problem recently is that I find comments that mention griefer or ganker to be tantamount to hysteria and scaremongering.
The words have lost any meaning now.

And now you want to up the level by using the word stolen.

When I started playing I went into open with trepidation but guess what, mostly the meetings with other cmdrs have been rare and meaningless (I.e zero interaction)

 

[Robert Maynard]

You mean after the 1.3 Patch actually made life on mass murderers even easier you expect Frontier to do a 180?

Karma system, proper AI security, actual consequences felt by murderers? This game will never, ever see any of that. It's a murder game, plain and simple. Which is also why there is no "open PVE" mode. It would simply deprive the murderers of too many targets.


At this point it couldn't be further from a simulation of a "living, breathing galaxy" if it tried. And as far as I know, FDev has at no point in the past ever acknowledged that their galaxy might be a little too easy on crime and murder. Not that that's saying much, given how little they talk about their actual game.

From memory, the 1.3 patch removed the "scan illegal cargo many, many times then profit" bounty exploit by setting a cap on recoverable bounties, per Faction, to 1M Cr.

As to the contention that Frontier will do nothing in relation to karma and C&P - we'll see. Short of removing all financial / ship content losses on PvP destruction, I don't see how Frontier would "encourage" players to play in Open if nothing is done to discourage PKing of clean players.

 

[lokvette]

You PvE only crowd have a lot of hate.

- - - Updated - - -

Not me fella, some one need a hug, come on let me make it better.

Got to love broad sweeping statements that nicely put a large part of the player base into one basket with a huge label on them.

 

[Ziljan]

In my group we've had exactly 1 player that was actually successfully ganked in Open in the last year and a half. We are NOT a PVP group, but peaceful explorers, traders and miners. And we all play exclusively in Open. So all of this hand wringing about murderers running amok in open is beginning to sound like a sensationalist fake news article written by people trying to get likes and shares to hate on some unsuspecting fringe group.

Can we please get back to a fact-based reality?

Fact. Frontier isn't trying to cultivate ganking, because that would actually require effort. Ganking is just the default mode of PVP when no other formal PVP system is in place. Nor is Open rife with gankers, far from it, most people there are good and decent folk, who will be far more likely to chat than fire. The rest are usually shy lurkers who are probably nice but don't speak your language very well, or where just afk or in a menu where they can't see chat.

So why does asymmetric PVP still happen if people in Open are so good? Well the reality is that even good people can have a bad day, and even feel like being jerks sometimes. And a) the power curve and the skill gaps in the game are HUGE, and b) the ONLY way for PVP to occur at this moment is by ganking, piracy, and prearranged fights. So the rare instances that it happens in the wild, guess what? It's asymmetric and ganky.


HOW DO WE FIX IT?

1. Create a play ground to focus symmetric PVP activity via heavily advertised military actions between powers (PVP CGs). Don't like PVP CGs? doesn't matter. Many of the people who gank are the same people who do like the idea of PVP CGs, and will be too busy killing each other to kill you. Yes assymetric ganking will still exist, but it will lose its flavor once a real challenge is tasted. This is why people gank in Shinrarta. Because they prefer hunting big game.

2. Create a fun C&P system. The primary function of a crime and punishment system should be to divert criminals to Anarchy and Low Security systems. It should not halt their activity to ZERO. But should instead funnel them into a life lived in the shadows and associating freely only with low life scum of the galaxy. They should be banned from legally docking at any lawful station in a High Sec system. And likewise should be given opportunities to rise in a criminal underworld. This C&P system should apply EQUALLY to PVP and and PVE crimes. Which means that the cops will need to learn the difference between a misdemeanor and a capital offence.

3. Give people a flipping challenge. Provide NPCs that are actually scary and require you to change your shorts after a fight. I am not saying they should be ubiquitous, but pirate lords in lawless systems, and Elite bounty hunters should make you think twice before engaging even ONE of them. The current crop of Elite NPCs is laughably weak and with almost no ability to even drop your shields unless they attack in packs.

4. Create a real Bounty HUNTING system. Including a form of player tracking of the Most Wanted players in the galaxy. You know who they are. But what if you always knew WHERE they were? Everytime they are spotted and scanned by a cop, their position would be updated on the GalMap and on GalNet. The only way they will get peace is if they stay inside anarchy space. Sure these guys don't really like peace anyway, and they will love their notoriety. But at least you'll know that someone out there is stomping their face too, on a daily basis. Also they'd have a much harder time sneaking up on people if their location was revealed each time a cop scanned them.



You guys want a separate MODE to call your own. I think that is dividing the community too much. The galaxy is big enough for all of us. And we can more easily be divided between lawful and lawless systems. So we can still say "Hi" politely in lawful systems on our good days, and then go a beat the hell out of someone in lawless systems on our bad days when we need to smash face, or simply seek out righteous justice. All while staying in the same big tent community.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

In my group we've had exactly 1 player that was actually successfully ganked in Open in the last year and a half. We are NOT a PVP group, but peaceful explorers, traders and miners. And we all play exclusively in Open. So all of this hand wringing about murderers running amok in open is beginning to sound like a sensationalist fake news article written by people trying to get likes and shares to hate on some unsuspecting fringe group.

Can we please get back to a fact-based reality? .

there are facts and there are facts tho.... ie

i feel quite safe the odd time i am in open when i am in random space... however the 1 time i tried to do a CG.. and it was a peaceful CG involving delivering scrap for heavens sake in open and there was alsorts of attery going on, 1 person tying up landing pad, whilst their mates rammed and shot up the ships.

so yes, it is a FACT that 99% of space it totally safe in open.

tis also a FACT that interesting places in open attract certain players, and i am not talking about pirates or bounty hunters.

Equally it is a fact that even in these hotzones, depending on all sorts of reasons, for 1 person it may still be ok, and for another it may be a mess.

I have not done CGs or gone to interesting places in open for quite some time now bt plenty on my friends list do and i am often getting messages in the chat group i am in, warning of "be ware of CMDR ABC in cutter/FDL/what ever in system XYZ" so i know it still goes on.

 

[Ziljan]

so yes, it is a FACT that 99% of space it totally safe in open.

tis also a FACT that interesting places in open attract certain players, and i am not talking about pirates or bounty hunters.

Please read my 4 suggested solutions. If peaceful CGs happened primarily in Lawful systems, then gankers who dared to enter those systems them would find themselves quickly hounded into a rebuy screen.

The only reason this doesn't happen right now is because Criminals are difficult to identify thanks to the bounty being shed at the rebuy screen, even if that death is in a sidey. But a proper karma system that also physically tracks the galaxies most wanted known bad-actors would be very hard to hide in the light via suicidewinder.

 

[Apos]

Do you always project this hard?

Is your self righteousness always making you so oblivious to sarcasm?

- - - Updated - - -

In my group we've had exactly 1 player that was actually successfully ganked in Open in the last year and a half. We are NOT a PVP group, but peaceful explorers, traders and miners. And we all play exclusively in Open. So all of this hand wringing about murderers running amok in open is beginning to sound like a sensationalist fake news article written by people trying to get likes and shares to hate on some unsuspecting fringe group.

Can we please get back to a fact-based reality?

I doubt we can, because Mobius is acting like a cult at this point.

 

[Han_Zen]

Please read my 4 suggested solutions. If peaceful CGs happened primarily in Lawful systems, then gankers who dared to enter those systems them would find themselves quickly hounded into a rebuy screen.

The only reason this doesn't happen right now is because Criminals are difficult to identify thanks to the bounty being shed at the rebuy screen, even if that death is in a sidey. But a proper karma system that also physically tracks the galaxies most wanted known bad-actors would be very hard to hide in the light via suicidewinder.

It all basically boils down to the game mechanics around stations. They aren't fun.

The reason they aren't fun is that they simply don't work, even from a pure PvP perspective. It is impossible to remove someone from a station zone, even with all the force in the game. On top of that, the stations do a poor job in protecting their customers.

Even a very poor player can kill an endless amount of traders, if they have cash for rebuys.

If you are not totally against PvP in all forms, you will often find open space interdiction to be fun. They are fun, because they can be countered by the right maneuvers and the right equipment. You can build a blockade runner and get through.

Blockades inside the station zone are impossible to counter.

 

[lokvette]

snip.
The galaxy is big enough for all of us. And we can more easily be divided between lawful and lawless systems. So we can still say "Hi" politely in lawful systems on our good days, and then go a beat the hell out of someone in lawless systems on our bad days when we need to smash face, or simply seek out righteous justice. All while staying in the same big tent community.

If this was the case then I would spend more time in open near the more well trodden parts of the bubble, as it is now being on the edge Its then or when I'm in the black that I click open as my desired game mode.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Please read my 4 suggested solutions. If peaceful CGs happened primarily in Lawful systems, then gankers who dared to enter those systems them would find themselves quickly hounded into a rebuy screen.

The only reason this doesn't happen right now is because Criminals are difficult to identify thanks to the bounty being shed at the rebuy screen, even if that death is in a sidey. But a proper karma system that also physically tracks the galaxies most wanted known bad-actors would be very hard to hide in the light via suicidewinder.

hey preaching to the choir...... but its been >2 years now and the response to crime against pilots federation members has gotten worse, and FD have shown zero interest (I am talking actions not words) in closing the suicidewinder exploits (or fast travel cheats) etc.

The day FD implemented a plausible crime and punishment system, many players not in open would probably go back.

and at the same time the complaints from some corners would probably be deafening.. until they found another way to exploit the game... and i guess that is the problem...

whilst on one hand I DO want a proper working C&P system - this is a benefit in my view to all modes... but the realist in me wonders, how much time to i want the devs spending on this, and again realistically will FD ever beat the truly motivated to beat the system at their own game, without screwing over the 99% of players.

 

[excalibus]

The difference is that there are two types of PvE players: those who wish to be mixed with PvP players, and those who dont. FD never gave stats on those, because short of a poll there is no way of knowing.

Now that would be actually something I would love to see, FDEV include a poll in the client asking all the players if they would like the addition of an open PVE mode... however it is implemented (and it could be implemented with something as simple as a TOS / EULA update and report / support policing it), weather it be a no damage mode, I would prefer it wasn't zero damage actually as that reduces the actual dev time for such a mode implementation and keeps the mechanics across all modes the same, or a pilots license points based system that automatically bans players who lose all their license points, which I would prefer, of course would be entirely up to them...

But a poll on the client would give frontier a definitive response across all the players because as we know, there are less forum members than actual players across all the platforms...

 

[excalibus]

Ahh, well that question has been covered extensively in many threads and the answer seems to be either:
1. Nothing
2. Instant death to anyone that looks at me funny

Actually there is a way for a C&P system to work, but it is a considerable amount of work to implement it and it is also something that will require a fair bit of data storage (given the playerbase)

I am not talking about a karma system... (Personally I do not know how that would quite work), What I am talking about is a very granular and responsive system that tracks a players actions (both 'good' and 'bad') and ties into the various modifiers for the actual solar system where the action takes place, so in a wealthy high security system (or any system under lockdown) the security response would be swift and deadly depending on the commander committing the actions criminal history and affilliation with that particular systems controlling faction...

TLDR; an important reason to actually read the thread as both myself and GluttonyFang have put forward proposals for inclusion in a crimes and punishment system which would actually improve the current 'open' version of the game in so far as believable responses for actions performed... one slight difference I think between us is I think my idea should be implemented as not only PVP but PVE as well - so actions you perform against NPC also act as affectors... That way it works across all modes... and is consistent... etc...

But I digress, if you are truely interested, go back to the first oh 30 - 40 pages I think of the thread and I think our links to the proposals are both in that area

 

[willowfan]

In my group we've had exactly 1 player that was actually successfully ganked in Open in the last year and a half. We are NOT a PVP group, but peaceful explorers, traders and miners. And we all play exclusively in Open. So all of this hand wringing about murderers running amok in open is beginning to sound like a sensationalist fake news article written by people trying to get likes and shares to hate on some unsuspecting fringe group.

Can we please get back to a fact-based reality?

Fact. Frontier isn't trying to cultivate ganking, because that would actually require effort. Ganking is just the default mode of PVP when no other formal PVP system is in place. Nor is Open rife with gankers, far from it, most people there are good and decent folk, who will be far more likely to chat than fire. The rest are usually shy lurkers who are probably nice but don't speak your language very well, or where just afk or in a menu where they can't see chat.

So why does asymmetric PVP still happen if people in Open are so good? Well the reality is that even good people can have a bad day, and even feel like being jerks sometimes. And a) the power curve and the skill gaps in the game are HUGE, and b) the ONLY way for PVP to occur at this moment is by ganking, piracy, and prearranged fights. So the rare instances that it happens in the wild, guess what? It's asymmetric and ganky.


HOW DO WE FIX IT?

1. Create a play ground to focus symmetric PVP activity via heavily advertised military actions between powers (PVP CGs). Don't like PVP CGs? doesn't matter. Many of the people who gank are the same people who do like the idea of PVP CGs, and will be too busy killing each other to kill you. Yes assymetric ganking will still exist, but it will lose its flavor once a real challenge is tasted. This is why people gank in Shinrarta. Because they prefer hunting big game.

2. Create a fun C&P system. The primary function of a crime and punishment system should be to divert criminals to Anarchy and Low Security systems. It should not halt their activity to ZERO. But should instead funnel them into a life lived in the shadows and associating freely only with low life scum of the galaxy. They should be banned from legally docking at any lawful station in a High Sec system. And likewise should be given opportunities to rise in a criminal underworld. This C&P system should apply EQUALLY to PVP and and PVE crimes. Which means that the cops will need to learn the difference between a misdemeanor and a capital offence.

3. Give people a flipping challenge. Provide NPCs that are actually scary and require you to change your shorts after a fight. I am not saying they should be ubiquitous, but pirate lords in lawless systems, and Elite bounty hunters should make you think twice before engaging even ONE of them. The current crop of Elite NPCs is laughably weak and with almost no ability to even drop your shields unless they attack in packs.

4. Create a real Bounty HUNTING system. Including a form of player tracking of the Most Wanted players in the galaxy. You know who they are. But what if you always knew WHERE they were? Everytime they are spotted and scanned by a cop, their position would be updated on the GalMap and on GalNet. The only way they will get peace is if they stay inside anarchy space. Sure these guys don't really like peace anyway, and they will love their notoriety. But at least you'll know that someone out there is stomping their face too, on a daily basis. Also they'd have a much harder time sneaking up on people if their location was revealed each time a cop scanned them.



You guys want a separate MODE to call your own. I think that is dividing the community too much. The galaxy is big enough for all of us. And we can more easily be divided between lawful and lawless systems. So we can still say "Hi" politely in lawful systems on our good days, and then go a beat the hell out of someone in lawless systems on our bad days when we need to smash face, or simply seek out righteous justice. All while staying in the same big tent community.

hey preaching to the choir...... but its been >2 years now and the response to crime against pilots federation members has gotten worse, and FD have shown zero interest (I am talking actions not words) in closing the suicidewinder exploits (or fast travel cheats) etc.

The day FD implemented a plausible crime and punishment system, many players not in open would probably go back.

and at the same time the complaints from some corners would probably be deafening.. until they found another way to exploit the game... and i guess that is the problem...

whilst on one hand I DO want a proper working C&P system - this is a benefit in my view to all modes... but the realist in me wonders, how much time to i want the devs spending on this, and again realistically will FD ever beat the truly motivated to beat the system at their own game, without screwing over the 99% of players.

In my view a proper working C&P system is the only practical way to encourage PvE inclined players to play in an open environment. Though like Mad Mike says, FD have had 2 years to implement such a system.

They have been talking for a while now about a C&P and karma system but in a fairly uncommitted "at some point" kind of way

The one time they did try to do something it was a totally inadequate dogs breakfast of an attempt and in many ways made life actually easier for anti-social players.

 

[Vorxian]

Guys I salute the direction the conversation is heading. Been repping like mad the folks making these great posts....

We know a call for an OPEN PvE mode is a sort of 'fall back' option, we know DBOBE is more inclined to look at rules / laws / C&P and mechanics in game that make undesirable and fruitless attacks on clean players very undesirable.

Personally I enjoy these chats a lot when some really cool ideas start to sprout around alternatives to PvE mode.

Ultimately a PvE mode is a fall-back idea to prevent undesirable interaction against players doing undesirable things. I don't think anyone has any objection to Pirates being a nuisance stealing some cargo, I don't think anyone has anything against MEANINGFUL PvP. My objection is a clean player in a non armed freighter (cargo ship) getting seal clubbed, losing 50m credits by a meta-loaded FDL standing to lose 10m with all but a 500cr fine. I have issues with fuel rats being bated and ganked for no reason, i have issues with players exploiting game mechanics to get cheap, risk-free skills at various locations.

Address this, and OPEN will be a much more prosperous place, and far less a preposterous place

In my view, anyone firing upon a clean commander should be subject to the following logic..

What space are they in? Federation? Imperial? Independent? NONE?
What rank do they have with that faction?
What is the system status?

No matter what the actual security level of the system, anarchy or not. If a player is King in empire for example.. and they get attacked in empire space, you'd expect the empire to react immediately and brutally to any perpetrator attacking someone representing them. A clean player should be protected.

A clean player in any non-anarchy system should be safe from murder. Not from being attacked, but from murder.

Piracy, if done right, should be easy, swift, and accomplished damage free to the target. Tools should be implemented to ensure this. The Pirate will get some kind of bounty / flag / karma whatever, as a result of the act.. but ultimately as no damage took place, no system authority need step in to put an end to the attack.

Attacking someone with a bounty is fair game. Should always be fair game. Hey you get fined by a station for ramming a ship? well that enables a pvp kill me now flag, better that that paid off asap.

All this just examples and what could be drawn up to address things.. others have made great suggestions to. I'm not as hardline PVE SERVER NOW as some may think.. we just need to address pointless ganks, griefing (mechanic exploiting) and ensuring CGs remain a safe community event for those clean pilots out there. Free game to non clean players ofc.

 

[JosiahD]

My problem recently is that I find comments that mention griefer or ganker to be tantamount to hysteria and scaremongering.
The words have lost any meaning now.

And now you want to up the level by using the word stolen.

When I started playing I went into open with trepidation but guess what, mostly the meetings with other cmdrs have been rare and meaningless (I.e zero interaction)

Well if someone is being an at and as a result I lose progress or the time I've spent in a game developing a character, earning in-game currency, then yes they have inflicted a loss upon me.....and one I can't recoup without further expense of my own time. Time that I then have to spend recouping that loss instead of progressing further from the point I'd reached prior to the loss. All so someone can act like an ignorant, arrogant, inconsiderate at. So yes, by some measure they have stolen the outcome of that play time from me. Of course, in the process if I have chosen to play in open and accepted the chance of such an encounter, part of the responsibility rests with me.....but selecting open and accepting the possibility of PvP does not equate to accepting being someone else's content for lulz. But that's just how it makes me feel - others would not interpret it in that way.

 

[Ziljan]

hey preaching to the choir...... but its been >2 years now and the response to crime against pilots federation members has gotten worse, and FD have shown zero interest (I am talking actions not words) in closing the suicidewinder exploits (or fast travel cheats) etc.

The day FD implemented a plausible crime and punishment system, many players not in open would probably go back.

and at the same time the complaints from some corners would probably be deafening.. until they found another way to exploit the game... and i guess that is the problem...

whilst on one hand I DO want a proper working C&P system - this is a benefit in my view to all modes... but the realist in me wonders, how much time to i want the devs spending on this, and again realistically will FD ever beat the truly motivated to beat the system at their own game, without screwing over the 99% of players.

Again, I don't think they can implement an effective C&P system without giving honorable PVP soldiers and dishonerable PVP villains something to keep them occupied and entertained. Which is why I mentioned FOUR things. 2 of which deter crime in high security systems, and all 4 of which are actually fun and legitimate PVP alternatives to random senseless crime. Yes of course the people who are determined to be murderhobos will still be lurking about. And yes, the most skilled of them may find ways to circumvent the enhanced security features. But guess what? That is why I included #4, a player tracking system for the worst of the worst. So these super criminals will also have superheroes (human CMDRs of equal cunning and tenacity) hounding their every attempt to infiltrate lawful systems

The criminals can't complain when their lawlessness isn't disallowed but merely made EXCEPTIONALLY difficult and short lived.

 

[Vorxian]

Well if someone is being an at and as a result I lose progress or the time I've spent in a game developing a character, earning in-game currency, then yes they have inflicted a loss upon me.....and one I can't recoup without further expense of my own time. Time that I then have to spend recouping that loss instead of progressing further from the point I'd reached prior to the loss. All so someone can act like an ignorant, arrogant, inconsiderate at. So yes, by some measure they have stolen the outcome of that play time from me. Of course, in the process if I have chosen to play in open and accepted the chance of such an encounter, part of the responsibility rests with me.....but selecting open and accepting the possibility of PvP does not equate to accepting being someone else's content for lulz. But that's just how it makes me feel - others would not interpret it in that way.

I'm with you.. but what if you're in OPEN.. someone shoots you and 3 heavily armed, engineer modded system security FDLs immediately decloak and shred the bejesus out of your attacker.. In system local they announce.. stay clean commander, may you be on your way. Sorry for the inconvenience..

I'd say.. hoooooooooooooooolyyyyy.. that's awesome. It'd reward you for being such a squeaky clean commander

EDIT: it would make gankers choose and scan their commanders correctly, and not just line up against the first hollow box on their radar.

 

[JosiahD]

In my view a proper working C&P system is the only practical way to encourage PvE inclined players to play in an open environment. Though like Mad Mike says, FD have had 2 years to implement such a system.

They have been talking for a while now about a C&P and karma system but in a fairly uncommitted "at some point" kind of way

The one time they did try to do something it was a totally inadequate dogs breakfast of an attempt and in many ways made life actually easier for anti-social players.

This is why I have swayed more towards open PvE as the solution. While I'd like effective consequences/punishment in place, it should have been in place on day one. It's taken too long already, and I'm not confident it's going to be all that effective anyway whenever we do get it. And if it's not effective it will fail dismally at bringing people back to open. Sort of akin to CQC being attractive to PvPers.....
.
In the absence of effective consequences, I'd prefer a contextual PvP flag, but we've got less chance of getting that than getting an open PvE mode. Which is why I now prefer the open PvE mode as I think it's the only option that we KNOW will be effective at concentrating PvE focused players (in an open format as opposed to spread across multiple private groups).

- - - Updated - - -

I'm with you.. but what if you're in OPEN.. someone shoots you and 3 heavily armed, engineer modded system security FDLs immediately decloak and shred the bejesus out of your attacker.. In system local they announce.. stay clean commander, may you be on your way. Sorry for the inconvenience..

I'd say.. hoooooooooooooooolyyyyy.. that's awesome. It'd reward you for being such a squeaky clean commander

EDIT: it would make gankers choose and scan their commanders correctly, and not just line up against the first hollow box on their radar.

I agree it would be awesome, but won't the attacker (presumably a PvPer) then complain that instant appearance of such security ruins their immersion, leading to Frontier then nerfing the security response? Yes, I'm getting cynical in my old age......

 

[sewerratuk]

I agree it would be awesome, but won't the attacker (presumably a PvPer) then complain that instant appearance of such security ruins their immersion, leading to Frontier then nerfing the security response? Yes, I'm getting cynical in my old age...... ��

Your not cynical, it would definitely happen. The problem is that you can't complain and use immershun as a reason for PvP being a bad thing (there is no in game reason for it!) and then want a solution that destroys immershun

 

[excalibus]

Yeh, it's funny that the best CG out there atm is the player created one in Xihe. It's a perfect example of PvE and PvP players coordinating on both sides.
There is zero monetary reward and no rank table, makes you think doesn't it

Best is a subjective term, to determine it is best then it has to rank somewhere on someones scale... maybe it is the 'best' currently in your opinion, and that is fine, perhaps it is the worst in someone elses opinion and that is also fine... so no it does not make me think anything more than you prefer that type of CG than the traditional type... others may / will disagree of course...