ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing

And that is your opinion. Let's keep it like that. Looking at majority of comments here and there players have a different idea... Artificially expanding time to get anywhere in the game is recipe for disaster. Players are already complaining about grind, grind is real, and please don't deny it. If I hear that grind is self inflicted and I am doing it wrong my currently neutral opinion about you will drop to very low level...
So ... why spend time worrying about "credit rebalancing" - why not instead abolish credits and make all things free?

Then there is no artificial barrier to getting anything in the game - you just go to a station and fit your ships how you want - and we get to skip this unsolvable conversation entirely.

2. Buying and kitting out any ship require money, money can be obtained very slow from anything apart from mining - and that's a grind,
Even before this rebalancing, it's possible to get 100M/hour or more from:
- massacre missions (CZ or pirate, stacked)
- trade missions (any high value good, in the right system combination)
- bulk trade (this rebalance claims it will add more goods that work for this and buff profits further, but it's already there in the right situation)

Two thirds of the ships cost less than 100M, even a nice multirole big-3 will cost less than 500M.

If that's not acceptably quick and too much grind, then I think abolishing credits entirely is the only really acceptable solution.
 
The thing is that to enjoy the game the way PLAYER WANTS, player has to go through stupid loops to get the tool to actually play (better ship)... I do appreciate that grind is expected to some extent but for goodness sake, what ED does is massive overkill... And please just for a minute think about MAJORITY of players. Majority of players are casuals with families, full time jobs.
Yeah, that's the crux of it, well put. :)
My perception of what is good progression in game is probably coloured somewhat by the fact that I've been on this ride right from the beginning. Believe me, with current mechanics folk get the 'big three' and a FC to house them, all G5 engineered, faster than I got my first Annie back in the day. :D

Maybe it is time to stop longing for the 'good old times' and embrace the new 'normal', which is truly casual now. :)
 
Playing the game in smaller ships is certainly possible after the Anaconda is achieved. If someone wants to rush, fair play to them, it's their game, their experience, and not for me to say it's the wrong way to play.
It is correct. I can easily afford few Anacondas, Cutters or Corvettes currently but I use my Cobra for most and Phantom for longer trips... Big ships are big pain to use actually...
 
If that's not acceptably quick and too much grind, then I think abolishing credits entirely is the only really acceptable solution.

Or having a demo-like mode where that is possible, maybe even offline, which can be hacked and modded and doesn't affect anything.

Then a real mode where you have to crawl and beg an existence, and have slug-like progress. Where the AI returns to 2.1 levels (I think it was that update where they all became very nasty indeed) and mining will barely cover limpets. If your ship is destroyed, start again.

Why not more modes to cover more things?
 
So I already left some ideas on other peoples suggestions. But here are a few of my bits on the issue:

Salvaging Missions

I frigging love Salvage Missions. I made my first few millions just going out there and grabbing lost art work, black boxes, you name it. But eventually the payout fell behind everything else, you could do with large ships. And then was of course the slow rise of NPC's dropping into your instance and shredding you to bits. When we are talking risk and reward, they should start paying as much as whatever new combat missions of similar difficulty should do, since it is very hard to gather stuff while under fire.

Mining

I don't mind the new changes to mining. Void Opal Mining was always my fav. mining activity after the update dropped. And I did so ignoring double hotspots and the like. Actually found a now fixed loopy mining method while playing around in mining ships.

But aside from that I am sad that no one talks about the low end minded goods. Sure most simply put them on the ignore list and it is logical to have natural occurring hotspots for all sorts of materials, but seeing them as useless is just sad. Sure there are dedicated Mission boards in some economies to mine low tier stuff, but they are rarely worth the money and or come in weird chunks. Here are some ideas to fix this:

  • Simply increase the yield of low tier goods and reduce the price drop of them (after all they are the staple of the economy unlike vanity panite) to make them an more reliable alternative to earn cash without having to chase high demand places for VO, P and LTD. This would help with Faction BGS work for those with Extraction Economies. If I had to suggest a rate, I would go with 60%-70% of whatever the High End Equivalent(Core Materials -> LTD/VO, Laser Materials -> Paninte) pays when in the middle of average and optimum market conditions.
  • Replace Mine X amount of STUFF with: You can place Y tons(200-1000) of STUFF here for the next Z Days and get paid SOME% above the Galactic average per Ton and increase thus the Hourly Pay rate closer to top tier mining materials and make it a reliable alternative that would help Faction BGS as a bonus incentive.
  • Add more options to gain Engineering Materials to Mine Missions. They are by all accounts an alternative currency and being to earn them with low tier materials could be the trade off for their lower credit pay rate. Could be combined with the previous idea to give X Materials per Y tons turned over without any monetary rewards.
Exploration

I am quite the explorer and never really did it for the money. So while I have no real sense of the current meta regarding exploration for cash, I somewhat feel bumped out not knowing how much a discovery might be worth on face value. A simple popup to show the estimated scan value upon revealing a body, accompanied by an estimate of the detailed surface scan value would be nice. Doesn't even have to account for a plaque from another player and such things, just some help to estimate if a scan might be worth it based on distance and so forth.

Oh one thing regarding exploration reward changes I can think off: Increase the Value of Bio and Geo Discoveries on surfaces, because the hassle of having to land there is rarely worth the hassle, if you were interested solely in cash.

Burning Station Trading

While Burning stations are a nice way to panhandle Basic Medicines for quite the profit, I've noticed you can either sell to the rescue ship or the burning station itself. There is no reason to do so, because as far as I am aware there is no difference between the two markets. In my opinion the risk of cooking alive while explosions rock your ship, should be worth at least 10-20% more profit per ton. After all having to ship supplies from the rescue ship back to the station costs money and you save the stations those costs.

Regular Trading

The most trading I did was probably basic medicine to burning stations' rescue ships, whenever some popped up. Or running commodities for my faction as part of some mission.

But I have a similar nit-pick with trading as I have with mining. Leather, Clothing, Biowaste, Domestic Appliances have next to no purpose outside of Source Missions. Sure it makes the market UI filled with little lore bits and clutter, but most stuff would never end up in the cargo hold of a non brain dead commander. Yeah you can manipulate market BGS to push it in your favour to get high sell prices for VO and maybe induce a bunch of detrimental states, but this is just fun for BGS Players.

  • A first good step would be to fix Wing Missions and have their payout be a pot that is split between participants. This way source missions with large ships would finally make sense.
  • a similar price per ton promise mission as suggested for mining would also be an idea. Have pirates hired by the competition bother you more, while under such a contract.
Unique Trading

I did Unique Trading for a bit, but the prospect of just a bunch of particular long fixed trades routes never had a great appeal for me. I would very much enjoy to maybe bring some mugs or rare spirit to Colonia or the brave souls in explorer's anchorage for the right price. So maybe open the distance limit, but have it drop of significantly after 200ly, so that a real increase is only felt halfway cross the galaxy.

On that note regarding Colonia-bubble trading: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/colonia-people-and-ware-connection.475184/

Tourism

Don't we all love the Sothis/Robio VIP loops or whatever is hot. Even more easier than most trade loops, since you only have to dock at 1 station to deliver and pickup goods. Yeah they already received some "care" and as far as I know are now in an acceptable way, we shouldn't overlook them while giving the rest of the system some overhaul

That aside I would like to remind everyone of the more traditional multi-stage visits or even the deep space tourism adventures. Honestly while they don't have much risk involved, I currently feel like they are in a terrible place and often even forget they are a thing. Increasing their payout by a bit not to make them the new hot thing (in fact don't increase it by that much), but to have people not feeling like wasting their time would be nice. At least put them on par with Road to Riches Payout.

Wing and Multicrew

I mean do I even need to spell out what we all already think? The wing bonus is nice, but having some control about profits in General would be nice to facilitate actual trading convoys. Probably an idea for another time.

Multicrew on the other hand could probably really use a buff to payouts. I mean Expert NPC crew is payed more. It's a game first and foremost and having fun with friends or strangers shouldn't be humstrung by having your crew feel like wasting their time. I don't know keep the 10% bonus, but also use the profit cut from npc crew, set it to 10-25% percent and let's not talk about bug fixes to the feature for now.

Powerplay

I mean I've done PP for exactly 2 or 3 days before putting it away. Other probably have a lot more to say about it, but I am just saying the time investment, commitment and return stand in no comparison to each other. Since it is a legal PVP outlet, the payout for destroying ships currently holding PP commodities should probably be boosted, if you carry such materials yourself.

Open vs Private/Solo

I mean that is a can of worms for another day, at least if we are talking about payout. I just want to say that rather than affecting the Rewards gained while avoiding the risks of open, I am a firm believer in simply cutting the value of any action performed outside of open down (including personal contributions to CG's for ranking). But yeah that isn't about money. Just wanted to reiterate that I don't support any change to how much you are getting paid for avoiding open.

Final Thoughts, if you are still reading

Credits in Elite were aside from Engineering Materials, the primary method of progression through the game for a very long time. With Fleet Carriers you, FDev, fulfilled a much requested feature of your fans. And while I haven't been able to afford let alone maintain one yet and might never, since I avoided major gold rushes so far and cannot dedicate as much time as others to this wonderful game. Regardless I've pretty much gained the financial independence, where I could play around with any ship I wanted. Us as the community don't know how much bling there is to be bought in Odysee, but I am just projecting nothing will be quite the Credit Sink that are fleet carriers.

With that being said, I feel myself kind of unsatisfied by the lack of alternatives to spend my cash on. Sure I dumped a few dozen if not hundred millions as Donations into BGS or Rank unlocks, but as far as I am concerned, even you fix my and everyone else's long term grudges with the rewards of various activities, in the end one problem remains:

Not everyone plays Elite just for experience of sailing the stars, although you did a pretty fine job. Many want to actually get something for their long hours of works and at some point just seeing the credit counter go up just doesn't cut it. I know your time is currently dedicated to real content updates and I am of course excited and this is but busywork for your team to tweak the experience until everyone is happy in the meantime. Yet I implore you to start investigating some alternative ways to spend credits.

Back then Squadrons became a thing, sadly rather lacklustre if I may add, I made a whole bunch of suggestions to improve the feature, including adding a Treasury for Squadrons: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/squadron-improvement-part-1-treasury.476390/

I am not even asking for more assets, which would clog server space, but rather temporary bits and pieces to interact with players. In another post I suggested to make information about recent traffic at a station purchasable. Something that should already be tracked and just needs an interface, unlocked by money for example.

I think that is all I have for now in me. Looking forward on how this experiment of listening to the community will go. If you made it this far I should probably thank you for entertaining my ramblings about the game for so long. Fly safe everyone.
 
1st up great to see a CM get involved with a thread and actively respond
I'm hopeful that these balancing changes remain a constant and they don't stop after a few weeks, given that these are tied into Galnet news (and intertwined into the current stories?) I have faith this will be the start of something long term

If you are balancing prices in mining then a fix on all the bugs/glitches associated to mining is a must really

a lot of chat about grinding, if it's in relation to earning credits to buy stuff then there is no grind (imo) averaging 100mil an hour can get you anything in a reasonable time
if it's in relation to ranking, I'd agree it's a bit of a grind if you don't know where to go and what to do
Mats gathering is a grind, this can easily be fixed with a better trade down ratio at the mat brokers

not sure why there's a need to have everything within easy reach? there is no defined route through this game, no definitive story mode to follow, you cannot complete it so where's the rush?
 
Yeah, that's the crux of it, well put. :)
My perception of what is good progression in game is probably coloured somewhat by the fact that I've been on this ride right from the beginning. Believe me, with current mechanics folk get the 'big three' and a FC to house them, all G5 engineered, faster than I got my first Annie back in the day. :D

Maybe it is time to stop longing for the 'good old times' and embrace the new 'normal', which is truly casual now. :)

I remember you from the good ‘ole days, it’s quite surprising how much the game has grow, but stayed the same!
I’ve pretty much returned full time at the moment, loving it.
 

Deleted member 38366

D
IMHO :

We went from this (pre v3.0 era)...

ELITE-Ore_Pricing-Dec2016.jpg


ELITE-Ore_Pricing-Jan2017.jpg


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....to this :

1605961119751.png


...and this :

1605961238018.png


And alot of the highest value Ores - especially Void Opals, LTDs and Painite - are repeatedly boosted much further by the x2 x2 x2 price multi by virtue of the BGS effects of Faction State combinations. The "gold rush" is created by these massive boosts alone IMHO.

So my Opinion will likely be very (very!) unpopular....
BUT : the proposed price changes won't change a thing in the light of all this.
Prices paid were moved upwards by more than a full order of magnitude (introduction of new ores + Faction State combinations).

Lowering the max. prices paid by i.e. -30% looks like not a whole lot when compared to the root cause of originally attaining +2000%, causing the income imbalance and resulting income meta.
-30% (proposed balancing) vs. +2000% (v3.0 effects)
It's painful probably - but IMHO very obvious.

One solution might be to take the BGS effects of price-positive Faction States and reduce the resulting Multiplicators each of which boosts Commodity Prices with - and apply the reduced Multiplicators at least to the high-value Commodities (leaving lower-priced Commodities unchanged, so they can benefit from the intended market dynamics).

Bringing prices of other high-value ores more in line with the known "meta ores" would also help, so no isolated ores attain "light tower effect" attracting everyone all the time.

PS.
All this is in lieu of all other pending balancing changes, of course.
But I do wonder if upping rewards i.e. for Bounty Hunting by over a full order of magnitude (i.e. +1500%) would be a sensible solution either.
Combat certainly needs a boost without question - but it likely would be repeating the old V3.0 mistake by bringing it in line with the proposed mining income or even exceed it (far higher risk, let's face it) and risking to fall into yet another Gold Rush/Income Meta.

Just my 2 cents and I'll grab my coat ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
IMHO :

We went from this (pre v3.0 era)...

ELITE-Ore_Pricing-Dec2016.jpg


ELITE-Ore_Pricing-Jan2017.jpg


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....to this :

View attachment 196191

...and this :

View attachment 196192

And alot of the highest value Ores - especially Void Opals, LTDs and Painite - are repeatedly boosted much further by the x2 x2 x2 price multi by virtue of the BGS effects of Faction State combinations. The "gold rush" is created by these massive boosts alone IMHO.

So my Opinion will likely be very (very!) unpopular....
BUT : the proposed price changes won't change a thing in the light of all this.
Prices paid were moved upwards by more than a full order of magnitude (introduction of new ores + Faction State combinations).

Lowering the max. prices paid by i.e. -30% looks like not a whole lot when compared to the root cause of originally attaining +2000%, causing the income imbalance and resulting income meta.
-30% (proposed balancing) vs. +2000% (v3.0 effects)
It's painful probably - but IMHO very obvious.

One solution might be to take the BGS effects of price-positive Faction States and cut the resulting Multiplicators each of which boosts Commodity Prices with - and apply the reduced Multiplicators at least to the high-value Commodities (leaving lower-priced Commodities unchanged, so they can benefit from the intended market dynamics).

Bringing prices of other high-value ores more in line with the known "meta ores" would also help, so no isolated ores attain "light tower effect" attracting everyone all the time.

PS.
All this is in lieu of all other pending balancing changes, of course.
But I do wonder if upping rewards i.e. for Bounty Hunting by over a full order of magnitude (i.e. +1500%) would be a sensible solution either.
Combat certainly needs a boost without question - but it likely would be repeating the old V3.0 mistake by bringing it in line with the proposed mining income or even exceed it (far higher risk, let's face it) and risking to fall into yet another Gold Rush/Income Meta.

Just my 2 cents and I'll grab my coat ;)

You can hang that coat back on the hook !
You are correct and it needed saying. :)
 
@Bulbulunufus
CMDR, I begin to wonder if we are speaking the same language. You say that bounty payouts should continue to be treated different depending on if an NPC or a player with a bounty was killed. Because the latter generates credits out of nothing.
In fact any activity in the game does exactly this. I would like to know in which way credits generated out of bounty payouts are more toxic to the game than credits out of mining, trading, or exploration.
Hans I could see it generating significant amount of income. You and I go on a murder spree and kill every NPC ship we can find for a couple of evenings. Build up a nice big bounty each. Then we meet up outside a station I turn off my shield and you blow me up. I get my rebuy in the station then return the favour. We collect our bounties.
 
A bit late to the party but imho this is a great thing, the credit earning balance has indeed become warped through the years and a rebalance is much needed.
I don't mine but I'm realy curious to see how the reward for bounty hunting will be adjusted.

Great work Fdev!
 
10,000 credits for killing a bug. I can make 2 million simply by travelling from one station to the next. And they finally sit up and take notice? I think not.
The game is losing payers left right and centre now, to the point when Elite Dangerous is a free game to download now. Perhaps selling paint patterns is all the game is good for as far as wealth generation goes.
I got bored to the core mining for millions. But that was the only way. There was no other way. There still is no other way.
I've heard this balance talk for years. Nothing will come of it. Such a pity for the best VR game to decay to this state. It's like Frontier does not actually care. Get rid of CG. Get rid of Galnet. Get rid of VR. Get rid of balance. Don't bother with the bad background sim. Rely on new players. Focus on them. That's where all the money comes from. Stuff the rest.
The casuals cannot earn large amounts of money for a carrier.
We desperately need a small carrier that can take one medium and one small fighter. We need a small carrier for a small and medium combat ship as these ships don't have the range and it's too painful to get one of these to a combat zone with all the modules needed. It will also give small combat ships a much needed boost too. Make sure the small carrier cannot carry any storage or cargo. Just one small and one medium. Cargo on one not both, as before. Small combat ships don't need cargo. Could also have an explorer version?
But will we get it?
No. Get a large carrier we are told for billions which casuals cannot afford. Wait for legs to come out. You'll feel better, we are told. I don't think so!
A small carrier will also help with PVP - making it more honest and less of a gank fest if the small carrier is immune to attack like the large one is.
I don't care about legs. Who the #@*& wants legs in a flight sim? Wow! Talk about wasting millions on something we can do without. They folded to the pressure of a few who shouted the loudest and the most. They gave in to the pests who number less than 1%. Legs are not content. Background sim, story line, progression, economy. Base building. War between player groups. PvP. More than one money earning profession. How long is this list I wonder? I can go on and on and on. And I have.
And why are the hybrid ships better than the purpose built ships? What kind of @*&^ £%$^ is that? Why is the asp explorer not the best explorer in the game? Why is the corvette the best transport or liner in the game and why don't I bother taking one on a combat mission when a hybrid is better?
No doubt the 1% will focus in this reply. I know where the 99% are...not reading this forum, that's for sure.
 
I got bored to the core mining for millions. But that was the only way. There was no other way. There still is no other way.

I made 500mil in 4hour in the last cg. Not counting CG rewards.

I don't care about legs. Who the #@*& wants legs in a flight sim? Wow! Talk about wasting millions on something we can do without. They folded to the pressure of a few who shouted the loudest and the most

But i totaly agree with that.

I also dont see the point of skill/risk => reward mech in mining / exploring.
The risk in exploration is to go far and land on hight G planet.

The balance in mining that could be done is to make higher price for lower number of mineral. That way you make piracy "worth" . This is what are VO imo but still , it lack something.

the early game balance is great if you dont count mining, so i hope they will not make combat reward so much that we will end up with 1b/h combat farm.

Lastly i dont think combat is that risky atm. Goid stuff are but if you start making goid reward more , they will be farmed in wing and that will be the new goldrush...

The problem is balance between "solo" players and wing . If you increase payout to much for stuff that can be done by wing , you made them broken.

This is where mining shine , the diff between mining in a wing and solo is not that hight.
 
I've done that in a T6 and passenger cabins. Without any special loadout.
With all do respect. Because you did it does not mean everyone should... I rather have ship built for exploration, Palin trip is only one little thing, I do exploration as my main play style. Flying T6 for that is very wrong thing to do... 5000ly in the ship with low jump range is no fun...
 
Next, we intend to adjust combat rewards in the form of bounties and mission payouts. You can expect to hear the planned changes before the date is announced in a post similar to this one.
Good Day, Bruce!
Have you some plans about splitting mission rewards in multicrew? now in this mode it only makes sense to hunt aliens and pirates.

Also i hope we could use multiple SRVs in multicrew in future, but it`s another story )
 
The game is losing payers left right and centre now, to the point when Elite Dangerous is a free game to download now. Perhaps selling paint patterns is all the game is good for as far as wealth generation goes.
Yup, fully support that statement. Some players here live in the past: "previously we had this, be glad to have this today". It is 2020, game needs massive amount of work to make it worth playing in 2020. Those are different times, my main problem is a grind, endless, pointless loops w/o any way around those... Grind, grind, grind... I have everything I need but to keep new players coming and staying this has to change. Nerfing income sources is not the right thing to start with. It will push people to do more grind and at some point player will say: "&ck it, I have a life"...
 
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