Game design getting silly now

[thorn-]

As a combat-oriented player myself, blazing my own trail... why must I go mining, prospecting, exploring, gathering rares, etc?

YOU DON'T!

Seriously, why do people keep typing this? You can keep enjoying combat. You don't have to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER with Engineers. Your current weapons and gear STILL WORK.

I've made 15 Million+ over the past week in combat, using plain-vanilla, bought-off-the-shelf weapons. Targets still die.

Maybe i'm just playing the game wrong.

 

[starman]

"Becky is playing Minecraft with her eyes."

Approaching off-topic... but that link made me smile (in admiration, not mocking).

Why? Its a post about game design. And this charity is supported by Frontier.

The real phenomena is why people spend more time posting on forum than in game. Which reveals the lack of actual player contact in game, another design 'feature'

 

[thorn-]

Why save weight on the FSD? It's the one module where the class is way more important than the weight.

All good points .

As to why: It's just a mental thing - I try and find that sweet spot of weight vs performance. I usually value "combat performance" over "LY distance". Since I'm normally only traveling 20-25 LY, I use the C-class and save the tonnage. Plus it keeps my insurance costs down (which for me, is a big factor.)

 

[the100thmonkey]

A completely legitimate and clear feedback post. Have some rep, OP, and don't let the white-knight backlash get to you for blowing the whistle.

I, too, am dumfounded at the decision for players to access new content was to rope players into performing activities that they perhaps have a miserable time doing. As a combat-oriented player myself, blazing my own trail... why must I go mining, prospecting, exploring, gathering rares, etc?

But this assumes that all players should be able to access all content directly, without addressing the question as to why it should be that way. It's a basic concept of unlock progression in games in general that you have to do things that, perhaps, you're not as good at as you could be. The point here is that one man's grind might be another's eureka moment.

Prior to the beta release, I had sincerely hoped that in order to work our way through engineers content progression, we could utilize what was the heartbeat/foundation of each prior iteration of the Elite games: The mission board. It was the very focus of all interaction with entities other than yourself, getting jobs, dialogue interaction, negotiating terms, accepting the deal with a set of agreed upon terms or walking away. It exposed the player to hints/tips of the hat to previous events in the very rich elite lore pertaining to subjects ranging from Thargoids, the INRA, GalCop, and others, to name a few.

If we are going to work for the Engineers, why not work for the Engineers? One type of progression I was desperately hoping for was go to Engineer, get a list of possible jobs that could apply to any of the "professions" in the game, choose your job, and if completed sucessfully, then you earn a "favor". Store up and then cash in your favors to have an engineer make something that much better. Perhaps have a chance in the field to find a particularly tricked-out blueprint and bring it to your engineer. Heaven forbid if we get exposed to any tidbits of the history of the Elite Universe along the way.

Sure, running missions for the engineers themselves would be a viable alternative implementation that you enjoy, but it presupposes that the factions themselves aren't important to the flow of the game, which is clearly untrue. I only run missions for communist factions in the game. Forcing me to run missions for Farseer, a Fed, or any other "aligned" character would be anathema to my playstyle.

Perhaps moving away from a singular route to gaining the mods would be an acceptable way to go about the goal. We all like freedom to play our own way.

 

[Rezri]

YOU DON'T!

Seriously, why do people keep typing this? You can keep enjoying combat. You don't have to do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER with Engineers. Your current weapons and gear STILL WORK.

I've made 15 Million+ over the past week in combat, using plain-vanilla, bought-off-the-shelf weapons. Targets still die.

Maybe i'm just playing the game wrong.

No, thorn. Sorry, but you don't put out months of newsletters dangling the carrots equating to: "look at all this cool new stuff you get to play with!" And leave the player hanging. It's nonsense.

 

[Jediben]

OP: If you are on a hiding and the ship is about to go pop, press your pc reset button and avoid the death. You clearly play in Solo and it's your game to play how you wish. It is better to spend 3 minutes waiting for the reboot than 3 weeks making up your lost ship.

 

[GluttonyFang]

OP: If you are on a hiding and the ship is about to go pop, press your pc reset button and avoid the death. You clearly play in Solo and it's your game to play how you wish. It is better to spend 3 minutes waiting for the reboot than 3 weeks making up your lost ship.

I wouldn't advocate an exploit so openly on the forum.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I stay out of Threat 4 USSs.

Don't! Just get the enhanced performance thrusters on your Eagle, or whatever small ship you choose, drop in, take a shot, boost away, then wait for the fuzz to show up. It's literaly a blast!

 

[thorn-]

Why? Its a post about game design. And this charity is supported by Frontier.

I didn't mean it as a criticism... (the "approaching OT" comment was about my own reply, not the original).

The real phenomena is why people spend more time posting on forum than in game.

Ha. Well, my girlfriend doesn't glare at me when I'm typing on the internet at noon... but if I was flying, another matter.

 

[Oh Seven Commander]

For starts: I'm not 13 Years old... I'm actually older than you.

1. Powerplays: If you can't handle the heat that factions bring (and they do), then unpledge. Problem mostly solved.
2. Horizons: I don't like driving the SRV. I mostly avoid it. But if you want what's on the surface, you have to do what's required.
3. Engineers: You don't have to get Eng Mods. But if you want them, you have to do what's required.

I hate travelling to a system more than 25 LY away. It bores the hell out of me. Jump, scoop... move away, cool down... scoop... move away... scoop... ok, now I can jump. Repeat.

I can stay in a 2-3 system area and avoid that. Totally my choice. Also means I have to live without whatever rewards lie outside that area.

Can't get better at combat? Sure you can... well, most people can. You say your combat rank is Expert - well, obviously you've spent some time shooting things. Unfortunately, they didn't shoot back much. Now they do.

(I went after a CMDR last week ranked Deadly in a Python. Believe me, there was nothing Deadly about him at all. Don't confuse your combat RANK with your combat ABILITY.)

Elite is not Minecraft - you don't just walk around, stack some legos. Some people just aren't good at driving sims - well, then... I suppose you won't like a driving sim. I'm not saying that as an insult; I'm just pointing out that the game now takes SKILL and EFFORT... and for several months, it really didn't take much of either. It's a lot more interesting now.

Bring out pencils cause this guy just schooled OP

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I wouldn't advocate an exploit so openly on the forum.

Let em, maybe Frontier will do something about it in game before I die of old age.

 

[thorn-]

No, thorn. Sorry, but you don't put out months of newsletters dangling the carrots equating to: "look at all this cool new stuff you get to play with!" And leave the player hanging. It's nonsense.

I'm not trying to be dense. Or a jerk. I honestly just don't get it.

"Look at all this cool new stuff you get to play with!" - you DO get to play with it. You don't have to... play Eng, or don't.

I mean - Exploration is lame to me, so I just don't do that. But sure enough, it was a game feature that some people DO like, and are happy it was included. Those that don't (such a me), just don't play that part of the game.

I don't like the RNG of Eng, but again... either I want the upgrade, or I don't. If I do, then here's what I need to try and do. If I don't... well, then I don't. Frontier isn't forcing me to start mining rocks for polonium. If you want the shiny toy, go mine... or, live without the new toy, but also play without the time spent mining. Everything's a trade-off, in most any game.

I hate walking... playing Golf probably isn't the sport for me. But I do enjoy hitting balls on the driving range. I won't ever win a golf tournament this way, but I'm playing the part of the game I enjoy.

 

[halo jones 101]

The whole point of the original Elite was freedom to play as you choose. You could stay in safe places if you wanted to, and play that kind of game. Or you might choose to go to dangerous places and take big risks to make big money. As Elite stands right now, it's a marvel of coding genius, but it's not freedom. There's always a bigger fish out there to kill you and put your game back a few million. They come more frequently than you can make money and they're random. That's my major complaint here. Put simply, I no longer have the choice to play how I want to play. No matter what I do, I get killed or move backwards in some way. That, is poor design. It's broken.

Put simply, if I'm crap, then I should have the freedom to play a crap (nice and safe) way, gaining much needed credits and progressing in the game, for entertainment value. I cannot do this now. At this point, I can no longer leave the station I'm docked at with cargo or missions, because I will be killed faster than I can make money to buy back my ship. Actually, I can't make any money because that would mean leaving the station.


Kind regards, Andrew

You can absolutely play this game as you choose too, however you need to decide what you want to do, along with the where and how. That is just like the Elite of 1984 and many other differing games that have followed.

I am constantly amazed that so many adults need to be constantly reminded, that as with life all games have a basis in making and then taking the risk Vs. reward into account of the differing play style considerations. While there are some balance issues in this game, (this is nothing new in any game and is a different subject) the core game play design and mechanics are the same as the day this was first publicly released.

The game is not the issue, it is players expectations and comprehension sadly that is the heart of many complaints... The information has been and is out there to allow players to learn, or adapt new tactics, Thorn post that I quote below answers the issues you brought up. That said the game is not forcing you, to embrace any aspect of the differing play styles this game offers that is your decision...

1. Powerplays: If you can't handle the heat that factions bring (and they do), then unpledge. Problem mostly solved.
2. Horizons: I don't like driving the SRV. I mostly avoid it. But if you want what's on the surface, you have to do what's required.
3. Engineers: You don't have to get Eng Mods. But if you want them, you have to do what's required.

I hate travelling to a system more than 25 LY away. It bores the hell out of me. Jump, scoop... move away, cool down... scoop... move away... scoop... ok, now I can jump. Repeat.

I can stay in a 2-3 system area and avoid that. Totally my choice. Also means I have to live without whatever rewards lie outside that area.

Can't get better at combat? Sure you can... well, most people can. You say your combat rank is Expert - well, obviously you've spent some time shooting things. Unfortunately, they didn't shoot back much. Now they do.

(I went after a CMDR last week ranked Deadly in a Python. Believe me, there was nothing Deadly about him at all. Don't confuse your combat RANK with your combat ABILITY.)

Elite is not Minecraft - you don't just walk around, stack some legos. Some people just aren't good at driving sims - well, then... I suppose you won't like a driving sim. I'm not saying that as an insult; I'm just pointing out that the game now takes SKILL and EFFORT... and for several months, it really didn't take much of either. It's a lot more interesting now.

 

[Joril]

Some of the posters here seem to lack, severely, in empathy. I feel the OP's pain, and I sympathize.
FD missed a big opportunity to make, for instance, Power Play the mode for the dedicated hardcore (who want high risk high reward) that want a punishing game mode (which should still be fair, mind you) that goes on top of the existing game. Which, in this case incidentally comes with a lot of power over the game world. Instead they have made the entire game more like that hardcore game mode. Alienating the more laid back gamers - who mind you are the biggest audience. Hauling feight around isn't the same as signing up for the army. Security forces seem to be there for posterity if you get interdicted non-stop.

 

[Jack Schitt]

The problem they have is balancing it for players that are older possibly disabled

so insulting is now allowed on this forum. wtg moderators.

What?

 

[CarillonVideo]

Now you can certainly argue that he shouldn't play ED, becuase the difficulty level of the game is clearly beyond his ability - or his ability to improve enough to actually enjoy playing it - which is what I'd advise the OP to accept. (ie you'll ber happier spending your hard won gaming time playing something else). To argue that he is incorrect about his own personal experience is to be willfully blind to fact - the guy can't leave the slot without being killed, do you think he's imagining it?

@Biggles

Thanks for your reply Dave. I found it enlightening, compared to some of the other replies I got.

However, I just want to add a little bit of detail to the above comment you made. I'm Expert rank in the game. I have a decent HOTAS setup. I've been playing Elite since Beta 2.0. It's not like I'm not able to go out of the station without getting killed. So whilst I've been fairly self deprecating about my ability level in Elite, I'm probably not as bad as I've made out.

In reality right now, I'm docked at an outpost that has no shipyard. I have an Asp with a buy back of 1.8 million and I've got 600 k in the bank. When I leave this station, I will be doing a mission probably paying around 50 to 150 k. All I am saying is that under the new rules, I will more than likely get killed before I can reach 1.8 million in credits, doing those missions or for that matter, anything else that makes profit. I may well do five or ten trade runs before I get killed, but get killed I will, before I make 1.8 million to buy back a ship that prior to today, I built relatively easily from scratch.

@All

That's what I am questioning in game design here.

This last few days, I was getting killed EVERY SINGLE TIME by a single NPC FAS wondership (the same person - Marian Rada). Even when I was killed, she came and killed me again straight away. Even when I abandoned the mission, she just came and killed me again. The only way to stop myself losing ALL my cash in buy backs was to get a friend come and kill the killer, which I did. Then the update came out and this problem got fixed (although I don't recall being refunded any insurance payouts).

After this happened, I carried on doing missions and I got attacked by Cobra and Viper pirates and I dispatched them with relative ease. The gameplay was back to being playable and balanced. Then, I got attacked by a Vulture wondership (with amazing weapons and shields) and didn't stand a chance. I lost the rest of my cash.

So now what I am asking is, why design a sandbox game that doesn't give you the choice (you can fly where you like but there's always a mad FAS gonna take you out every time you get half way to your goal of making more than the buy back required for your ship). Why are state of the art FAS pirates attacking me when all I'm doing is transporting a 10k data mission? Like another post said - it's probably costing them more than they can make from me, in ammo.

It doesn't make sense. More importantly, it's taking away my choice. Clearly I can no longer fly anywhere without getting killed at least once per 1 million of profit, by a rogue FAS doing something weird. What's more, I've been so badly affected by this problem that I now have no money and no way to reasonably get any money to protect all that time I invested. I have to now risk travelling to another station with a shipyard to massively downgrade my game or quit.

A shorter version of this whole debate goes:

How am I supposed to play this game if I don't have enough money to afford the buy back and statistically, the game always kills me with a freak ship before I can make enough money to buy back?

If you read this shorter version of my problem, you will quickly realise that it's a paradox - you can't build a ship that you cannot afford to keep, at any skill level, unless you build it under one set of rules and then change those rules. I am suffering here because I built a ship with all my money a year ago, stopped playing, then came back, got hit by a bug which wiped out my cash and now I'm playing under a new set of rules that state I can't earn enough money to buy back my ship ever. That, is poor design. It's poor design because a player who was happily spending money on a product that entertained is no longer spending money and is no longer entertained.


Kind regards, A.

 

[CarillonVideo]

Your age means nothing. It is just about your mind.

I mentioned my age purely in relation to the fact that I'm an adult with a small amount of time available to dedicate to becoming good at something, in contrast to a child who maybe has school and then spends all night playing Elite with their friends. Indeed, I don't even have friends online I play games regularly with because I can't accurately predict when I will be regularly able to play a game.

I wasn't being ageist or suggesting that I am incapable of learning because I'm older. On the contrary, I'm pretty frickin' fabulous most of the time. (okay I'm joking here).

Claiming that you can not learn or adapt to a situation is just a lazy excuse for refusing to put the tiniest bit of effort in it. Don't wanna invest? Don't get a reward then. Nothing is for free.

I hope you can see now that I wasn't saying I'm lazy or refusing to learn something new. I've actually been playing all weekend trying to figure it out, which is why I am now down 22 million credits and in a position where I cannot afford to buy back my ship if I lose it.

You have the freedom to play or not to play, to pwoerplay or not to powerplay, to go open or not to go open, to bounty hunt or not to bounty hunt, you have the choice and freedom to do what ever you want but it isn't for free anymore and especially not safe. Elite: Dangerous, not Elite: Safe, aye?

In other words, I have the freedom to keep dying? That's how it seems to me. No matter what I do in my game from this point on, I will be killed by an insanely powerful ship before I can get the money to buy it back. In business, this would be called "unsustainable."

Why should the game adapt to you(-r I don't want to insult but as I conclude from your post "apparently limited skills")? There is not a single reason why a whole game should adapt to a single player. Instead, the game adapts to what the majority (or the majority of the payer base) wants. But with the focus on "majority".

I would never suggest a game should adapt entirely to myself. That's not what I am questioning. I am questioning the design of a system that doesn't cater for everyone. This game doesn't cater for me and by the looks of it, several other people think the same thing. The UK Highway Code is a well designed system because it caters for everyone who can legally drive. Not the majority. I think it is very unusual for a game design to prevent a player from gaining what they require from said game - in my case, entertainment. I find it wholly inexcusable that game design should allow me to build something of meaning (that took me a year) and then change and back me into a corner where I lose it and cannot get it back. That mate, is poor design.


Kind regards, A.

 

[thorn-]

So now what I am asking is, why design a sandbox game

Again, it's not a sandbox game.

there's always a mad FAS gonna take you out every time you get half way to your goal of making more than the buy back required for your ship). Why are state of the art FAS pirates attacking me when all I'm doing is transporting a 10k data mission?.

Have you considered changing your tactics?

I fly an FAS mostly all the time. It's got nice guns. But it's not that fast. You know what is fast? An Imperial Courier. It also has pretty good shields. It's even called a COURIER.

Sounds like a great ship to use for 10K data missions... just a suggestion.

 

[CarillonVideo]

What I see is a case where the OP refuses to try to learn the basics then complain how he must learn to become an ACE pilot to play.

Well, as the OP, I can confirm that wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm expert in combat. I have a fully kitted out Asp. I'm not saying I'm amazing or anything, but i at least have enough experience to accomplish that in under a year. Then I took a long break. Now it's broken, at least for me.


Kind regards, A.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

so insulting is now allowed on this forum. wtg moderators.

Quote Originally Posted by Alex Brentnall View Post

The problem they have is balancing it for players that are older possibly disabled,

Seriously need to look at the work of these guys http://www.specialeffect.org.uk/

Responded in PM then realised a few other people had commented too.
Offence and insulting was not my intent as anyone who views my posting history can see I'm here to help and not to cause offence or mine salt.

All I meant by the initial post is following on the OP's comments about being older. Statistically speaking the most capable players of fast paced games are the younger players with faster twitch responses that can control many things at once even combining headlook, voice attack and other things to get close to the "theoretical" master player.
This is not true for all older/disabled/low playtime players but in general I think we can accept this. As progressive as we all are (and it's actually nice to see) I think we do need to accept this.
The older generation on the other hand (don't like to generalise but it's been proven true in my experience) are generally better at tactical gameplay that requires more thought, experience and intelligence.

It's like pitting a 70 yrs old against a 15 years old. Most cases the 60 yrs old will kick butt at something like chess but will not be as good as the 15 year old at 100m sprinting. I'm not saying all cases will be like this but again lets get real for a second.


Now... My whole point of making this comparison was to say there is no difficulty settings, no way of matching the game experience to the player, whoever they are whatever their skill level. I argued profusely in another thread that some people can't simply "git good". Some have limitations and do marvellously at overcoming them, others are unable and I don't think we should exclude them from the game because their not a combat ace. The post below showcases this nicely.

Again sorry for any offence caused but I stand by my post and believe it was taken out of context. Peace everyone I'm out of this rather toxic thread. Again check my post history, I don't intend to insult anyone and I did not single out anyone.

@Starman I know, I watched a good 20 of the 24hrs livestream and contributed with what I could. I've also posted several times trying to help people with disabilities get into Elite, the most recent example I can think of was a chap who had lost the use of a hand where a few others along with myself helped identify a decent joystick and steered him towards voice attack as a way of managing the many things the game sometimes wants you to do simultaneously (chaff, scb hsl, lock target, fly, weapons, throttle etc)!

Alex

Edit: Mods if you feel my post needs an edit please feel free and go ahead. As above I feel it may have been misinterpreted but I'm outta this thread anyway, very toxic

 

[Drachenklaue]

Yeah, uh, it's pretty hilarious thinking someone could still be struggling with this A.I..