Game or simulation?

[Ven Jarvik]

I'm not going with the poll thing because I like people to give an opinion on what they think on any subject,well don't we all (I'm going mad,two threads in one week! and both on the same day)

And to my shame I'm going to post this and run because I decided I might do three hours work today (pain permitting)

Anyway do you regard this "thing" we are talking about as a simulation or a game.The two aren't mutually exclusive.

For my own money this is a Game..purely and simply a tool for fun,and relaxation.I could even argue that my original question is a moot point because how can you have a simulation of something which hasn't come to pass? Newtonian physics are a non starter for me inspite of being an original Frontier player.Now I just want to enjoy it as a space trading/exploration/run away from pirates type of thing,and in my (possibly wrong) view,I am guessing the majority,vast majority of new players who will come this way upon release will feel the same way.Again,what do you guys and gals think?

Bonus question for those who think of it as a sim (and you can take this anyway you please,it's meant as a question though,and that's all)
:Where is the fun in playing a sim exactly? the only fun I really see is you are forced to role play in some way aren't you? because you have to imagine yourself in the case of this GAME as being in control of a spaceship,therefore you are enjoying yourself from a role-play perspective without (possibly) realising it,right?

Thanks for your time,and patience everyone,I promise I wont make another thread for another month unless something comes up that I can't find the answer to.As I said I'm going to do a bit of work now,and I do mean "A bit"

 

[777Driver]

It is both a game and a simulation.. Just like GTA,FSX,GTR2 and hundreds of other games I spent many years working on full blown Level-D and fixed based simulators for airlines.

The only reason I would never call them a game is due to the huge amount of cost and certification involved in creating and operating them. Now if a had 20mil in the bank, and the space to stick one in my back yard, I would quite happily tell my friends I had the best game ever for them to check out.


Have never understood why some feel that the words simulation & game have to be mutually exclusive

Sorry for being lazy, I hate quoting wiki, however.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_game

 

[foxpur]

I tend to think or it more as a Sim with some game elements. Since this is a DIY interaction with no defined parameters or goals unless you set them many of the concepts of "game" get lost..

Take the most obvious... "The Sims" .. there is no game per se, yet it is by every definition a Sim. But it has game elements to expanding your sim.

 

[Enride]

For me, this is a game. Some would say its a bit towards the simgenre, and i sure wouldnt mind it to be more of a sim, but imo its purely a game.

Its simple, it doesnt require too much time/long sessions, and it happily puts realism aside for balance and player accessibillity.
The sim-part, if any, is not within the actual flying but possibly in the ongoing background calculations and progression that will happen partly due to player activity.

The joy of sims, imo, is feeling how you are learning things while at the same time getting a good insight in the activitys realworld counterpart, the difficulties and the suprisingly easy!

 

[MajorEpeen]

In my opinion there is a perfect balance somewhere between a game and a simulation for this type of game. I think that FD have done a great job in this respect and found the perfect balance. In it's current iteration Elite has managed to remain fun and be a game while still appealing to simulator fans due to the level of complexity and the light and damage models.

 

[foxpur]

The joy of sims, imo, is feeling how you are learning things while at the same time getting a good insight in the activitys realworld counterpart, the difficulties and the suprisingly easy!

If you look up ANY and ALL articles on what is a "Space Simulator" for the PC they ALWAYS mention Elite (and usually first in the list). It is the definitive original "Space Sim" ...

By definition of the genre it is the one that actually created the genre. It has game elements, but it is, by absolute the end all of what is a "Space Sim"

 

[MikeGreg]

For me its a game pure and simple
a sim reflects the real life situation and in real time
Elite can never be this

if you want a space sim that runs real-time try Orbitor
its free and uses real data a lot of it gleamed from NASA who show a interest
in the development and even supply build info for the shuttle and space platform
and data on the shuttle missions ( after they have finished)
and these can be duplicated in the sim
you also have a printable manual 100s of pages long
the sim is open ended and you are given all the tools to build and fly ( if you can call it fly) craft of your own design in it, it has a very big user base, but its not a combat sim
what it will give you is an insight to real space flight, and in real time

anyway nough said
Elite is a game, not knocking it, its a good game, or will be when they eventualy
get the problems sorted out for release day
and i as an original player of the BBC Elite and the frontier issues have welcomed it
with open arms and hope to get longtime satisfaction with it

rgds to all
MikeGreg

 

[Voyager_NL]

To me it is a game...
That runs in a realistically simulated Milky Way...
Where you can fly spaceships with (I believe realistically) simulated physics.

 

[kermit3]

for me this is a game not a sim as it do'es not have the interactions that are required for a sim take FSX you need to prep your aircraft work out a route and follow real world techniques and controls , where as elite is purely fictional thus its a game .

 

[Monk]

What is a game, really? Children pretend having adult jobs and try to simulate as much as they can and call it play (gaming sans technology).

Sports are an outlet for tribal behavior and mimic physical battle.

FPS games simulate war.

To me, games stimulate particular skills (different skills for every game) which allows us to play with those skills. Ultimately, practicing our skills, whether they be physical or mental is fun. Even more fun when there is a percieved achievement, prize or confirmation of improving/establishing skills.

With that in mind. I would consider a simulation to be one of two things. One, a simulation of a reality or process. Think The Sims, SimCity, Roller Coaster Tycoon. These are simulations of realities that you have or almost have an omniscient role. Second, there are the activty simulators. Think of Flight Simulator, EuroTruck Simulator, or TakeAnyEverdayJob Simulator. These are simulations of things you could potentially go out and do (with appropriate training and licensure).

They are all games to me.

However, an example of a game with no simulation whatsoever would be games like Breakaway or Tetris. There is no real life analogue or even a reasonable alternate reality to tie these to (unless you let your mind really go wild).

Anyway, any one game is going to be some mix of all of the above. This is where context and narrative come in. In the case of ED, I see a mix of simulation like a flight sim in an alternate reality simulation that you are not fully aware of but can have effects in your own insignifcant way (that last part is super cool to me). In context you are just one lone pilot making your way through a galaxy where humans have interstellar capabilities. There is just enough narrative to create a galactic backstory for you to create your alternate life in a space bucket. At the same time, the game rewards you through ranks, credits, and better ships.

tl;dr: I think ED is a space flight/life simulation game.

 

[Googol]

Interesting question.

I'm going to step back a bit in answering: In my view a sim that is sold as a game is just that - a game - because I consider simulators to be different beasts entirely.

Simulations and simulators used for training and modelling try to replicate aspects of the real world as closely as possible, and they are very boring as a result. When you use (not play) these sims and base your decisions on them you run the risk that getting things wrong will have real-world consequences (your company loses money / you lose your job). In a "sim" game, however, the consequences of failure boil down to the time you have to spend in-game to return to the status quo ante, and even then the game's design usually ameliorates your losses in an unrealistic way (e.g ED's insurance after ship destruction).

If we demanded perfect sim-like properties of ED we would end up with a game that would be almost unplayable, and would still be unrealistic if only because the player inhabitants of the ED universe are mostly restricted to entering it for a few hours each day.

 

[Riedquat]

Personally, I am fascinated by games/sims with AI that allow me to create or watch over a living breating environment within my PC.

Flight sims with dynamic campaigns, in fact most military sims with dynamic campaigns are something I will happily spend hours and hours in.

I wont necessarily 'play' the game during this time, but I will spend most of it just observing what is going on in the world.

I love to sit back and watch things unfold.

In Arma2 I would setup battles between two armies on an island and then just roam around the island with a free cam or civ unit following the action, watching the two sides battle it out, maybe picking out one particular soldier and following him.

Any game where I can see the AI going about its business just like I would is usually going to be of interest to me.

If DCS flight sims introduced dynamic campaigns Into their theatres I would die a happy gamer...

ED is going to be a living, breathing universe and being that this is pretty much what hooked me to the original, I'm in!, I would see it as a "Simugame".

 

[Xreasonz]

Difficult one this.

Been a simmer for a long part of my life now, mostly Race sims.

And what i understand as a sim is, a game that mimics the reality based on physics calculations, etc.

So still a game, but using realistic physics.

So i would call ED a Sim.

Purely because it uses real world data mixed in with made up ones.
Every Sim does it. Not 1 sim is 100% Simulator.

So you can argue, then by my definition, COD is a sim. . .
No, not really, it does not use Physics based on real life, Such as ballistics or velocity.

Arma does a far better job as using physics, thus would call it a sim.

My 2 cents.

 

[GolemXIV]

Depends on your fantasy... but really i don´t care

 

[Jarek Storm]

A simulator is a type of game.

Elite: Dangerous is a space flight simulator, just as Wing Commander, or X-Wing. There are many types of sims in gaming: flight, driving, boating, trains, etc.

Remember, back in the mid 80s, the word "game" was shunned. Video games were dead after the crash, and everything was called a "simulator" instead. Now days the term simulator has taken on some strange connotation as a joke, like walking simulator for DayZ or some such.

ED is a space sim, which is a type of game.

 

[Ydiss]

It's a game that puts game-play first and molds authenticity around that game-play. I don't think it's a simulation. A simulation, for me, will not always put game-play before realism and will, instead, strive to match real life absolutely and then make that fun, without impacting on the realism in any way.

The 500ms speed limit is a prime example of why I don't see this game as a simulation. But other people will have a different view because the word "simulation" is subjective. What's also subjective is that I am really happy ED isn't a simulation and is a game. Most of the design decisions made, or planned, are very clearly intent on making this game fun, whilst keeping as close to pseudo-realism as possible, to keep it feeling authentic.

That said, I don't imagine any game is a true simulation (by my definition). I see a flight simulator as the thing real pilots use to learn how to fly, or racing drivers use to learn tracks. Which is anything but a game. But, of course, would be fun to some people.

I've seen this topic come up countless times and it's generally down to the subjective definitions people apply to the words "game" and "simulation". Or (the age-old, eye-roll-inducing debate), "realism" & "immersion".

All that said, if ED isn't a simulation, it's as close to one as we're ever likely to get, whilst still remaining a game. So there is that.

 

[Smacker]

To me it is a game...
That runs in a realistically simulated Milky Way...
Where you can fly spaceships with (I believe realistically) simulated physics.

Nothing about the physics in ED is realistic, from laws of motion, levels of radiation, dynamics of entities in rings, weapon damage to space ship design. It is all stylised to make it fun (and rightly so).

 

[Ven Jarvik]

Remember, back in the mid 80s, the word "game" was shunned. Video games were dead after the crash, and everything was called a "simulator" instead. Now days the term simulator has taken on some strange connotation as a joke, like walking simulator for DayZ or some such.

E is a space flight sim, which is a type of game.

Crikey,some very intelligent and thoughtful answers here,and every single one of them has a good point.

I do remember that in the 80's if you mentioned you played games on the computer you were a bit weird,and wasting it's potential.Didnt Clive Sinclair have a bit of a war on the gamers too? or did I imagine that bit?
It's funny because now it has become more than acceptable,almost a way of life for some men and women out there.How times change.
But I must amit I forgot all about the way society used to view gamers.

 

[Georgio]

It's a helicopter flight sim in space, that's what it is.

 

[Voyager_NL]

Nothing about the physics in ED is realistic, from laws of motion, levels of radiation, dynamics of entities in rings, weapon damage to space ship design. It is all stylised to make it fun (and rightly so).

True but that what HAS been modelled is mostly behaving realisticly according to real life physics. Up to a point, I agree. Movement of ships behaves realistic regarding the thrust inputs you give... only thing is it has been capped so you cannot move faster that some arbitrated maximum. Hence: it's a game. Otherwise there wouldn't have been fun in dogfight.