PvP Gameplay...LOL!

[Martian Successor]

It actually does have a lot to do with time zone. I am in PST (GMT -8).

However, it also has a lot to do with WHERE in the game you are. I don't hang around the CGs unless I am looking to annoy the gankers (sometimes with a friend) in our gnat fighters. But because of my time zone and instancing, I rarely see anyone in open. But, again, I see a LOT of folks in Mobius. The Mobius group I am in closed new entry at 20k members earlier this month, so that should tell you something.

It also has to do with which Mobius group you are in as Mobius divided into more than one PG and decided to restructure the PG membership based roughly on timezones so as to maximise the potential to meet players closer to your timezone. Open is a free for all of players from all timezones left to be freely managed by the game's instancing mechanics.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is about your Mobius group reaching 20k players? That a private group has a 20k player limit and Open does not?

 

[NeilF]

Hey, so I'm in open play just for the hell of it. I'm on my way to Jameson's Memorial to purchase a new ship. I have no passengers, no cargo, no data, nothing. I'm successfully interdicted by a player who opens fire without demands or anything, destroys me for what? For fun? What a joke! What incentive do I have for playing in open?

There are methods to reduce the effectiveness of such toxic gameplay in ED:-
- Hyperspace to completely other systems (as this evades mass lock). But this might prove tricky against fully engineers ships disabling your engines in a few seconds. And it does mean - as others will ignore - you having to fly back and run the gauntlet yet again.
- SC in completely wrong directions to ensure toxic players can't interdict you.
- Or, most sensibly, join Mobius until FD pull their finger out after 3+ years and sort this out.


Untimately, you'll get told to get good. Told it's your fault. Told OPEN is OPEN. Told it's all in someway great gameplay no doubt. Personally I'm sick and tired of people ignoring the shallow C&P mechanics we still have after 3+ years, and dearly hope what FD have planned for this year finally brings some common sense to the game in this department.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

There are methods to reduce the effectiveness of such toxic gameplay in ED:-
- Hyperspace to completely other systems (as this evades mass lock). But this might prove tricky against fully engineers ships disabling your engines in a few seconds. And it does mean - as others will ignore - you having to fly back and run the gauntlet yet again.
- SC in completely wrong directions to ensure toxic players can't interdict you.
- Or, most sensibly, join Mobius until FD pull their finger out after 3+ years and sort this out.

Untimately, you'll get told to get good. Told it's your fault. Told OPEN is OPEN. Told it's all in someway great gameplay no doubt. Personally I'm sick and tired of people ignoring the shallow C&P mechanics we still have after 3+ years, and dearly hope what FD have planned for this year finally brings some common sense to the game in this department.

Most of us aren't ignoring the missing C&P mechanics, we just are taking the game as it is. FD announced "big" C&P changes coming in the next release. Let's see what they've come up with.

 

[zantar]

Well three more tries, three more executions. I'm determined to get to this station in open play! I'm not letting this guy drive me away. I guess I have a new goal now!

Congrats on making it Cmdr.!
When I hit elite rank, I flew into and all around the system.....like my own victory lap before I went and docked without a problem. [yesnod]

Did I mention I did all that in a sidey too? [big grin]

 

[NeilF]

Well three more tries, three more executions. I'm determined to get to this station in open play! I'm not letting this guy drive me away. I guess I have a new goal now!

Or, why keep feeding the troll?

Mobius until FD fix it (hopefully this year).


That said, Sandro has said they're not seemingly applying C&P (Karma) mechanics to anarchy systems, which seems daft and unrealistic to me.

 

[jasonbarron]

Or, why keep feeding the troll?

Mobius until FD fix it (hopefully this year).


That said, Sandro has said they're not seemingly applying C&P (Karma) mechanics to anarchy systems, which seems daft and unrealistic to me.

I actually admire Whammo's initiative; it's the only way to learn to beat the system. I would instead advise him to look up the GCI discord channel and start asking the instructors there on how he can improve his ship and skills to become invulnerable to gank attempts.

Plus, Fdev is never going to "fix" ganking, not in the sense you mean it...and finally, why on earth is the idea that Anarchy systems shall remain lawless "daft?" I submit that the idea of making Anarchy systems subject to law and order to be crazy and the opposite of fun.

 

[NeilF]

I actually admire Whammo's initiative; it's the only way to learn to beat the system. I would instead advise him to look up the GCI discord channel and start asking the instructors there on how he can improve his ship and skills to become invulnerable to gank attempts.

Maybe... But trolls simply hanging out at hot spots, because they're hot spots. So simply going there currently in open, and ending up as a victim keeps it going. Hence this chat still going on 3+ years after release.

Plus, Fdev is never going to "fix" ganking, not in the sense you mean it...

How do I mean it as you telepathic powers seem good today?

...and finally, why on earth is the idea that Anarchy systems shall remain lawless "daft?" I submit that the idea of making Anarchy systems subject to law and order to be crazy and the opposite of fun.

Why should mindless illegal destruction make more sense in an anarchy system than anywhere else?

a) What is the gameplay sense in allowing it (ignoring it) at any/all hot spots in the middle of no where (eg: alien bases etc), and therefore making them the same trolling ground without penalty?

b) How does it make game universe sense? If someone is habitually destroying other CMDRs (illegally) why would the pilots federation ignore it? Why insurance companies ignore it? They wouldn't and they would apply penalties to reign in the behaviour.


If we want proper piracy and proper PvP we need the game to orchestrate it and offer it. The mindless paper thin antics we get from griefers at the moment is a shadow of what the game should be promoting.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Maybe you are playing the wrong game?

This one is cut throat galaxy while hunting other cmdrs.

I hear space engine doesnt have ganks.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Space Engine is​ pretty rad.

 

[Martian Successor]

Or, why keep feeding the troll?

Because it gave him a goal to achieve and he finally did get through in the end, which is an achievement after all.

Mobius until FD fix it (hopefully this year).

That said, Sandro has said they're not seemingly applying C&P (Karma) mechanics to anarchy systems, which seems daft and unrealistic to me.

Mobius is a fix only against player gankers. The game's C&P is still out of whack there as well since you can go on NPC killing sprees with almost no significant consequences at all. The security response is laughably weak as any player with a halfway engineered ship can make mince meat of them all day long.

There are apparently some changes coming along to the NPC security response though, which will help the entire game's C&P actually mean something in the lawful parts of space. FD will be making security NPCs super tough, very possibly Thargoid-level toughness as well as making their response times quicker and making them able to hound a ganker/criminal out of that system.

Why would they apply law and order to Anarchies though? They are lawless by definition. What they should do in my opinion is make them a haven for criminals and dangerous for the law abiding players - basically the exact reverse of low/medium/high security systems, which should be a safe haven for the lawful and dangerous for the outlaws. In Anarchies criminal gangs, pirates and raiders should take on the role of the "security response" except they'll be going after clean players in the system and mostly leaving outlaw players alone unless attacked by them. Then we can get some worthwhile gameplay paths out of the C&P system.

 

[jasonbarron]

Maybe... But trolls simply hanging out at hot spots, because they're hot spots. So simply going there currently in open, and ending up as a victim keeps it going. Hence this chat still going on 3+ years after release.

How do I mean it as you telepathic powers seem good today?


Why should mindless illegal destruction make more sense in an anarchy system than anywhere else?

a) What is the gameplay sense in allowing it (ignoring it) at any/all hot spots in the middle of no where (eg: alien bases etc), and therefore making them the same trolling ground without penalty?

b) How does it make game universe sense? If someone is habitually destroying other CMDRs (illegally) why would the pilots federation ignore it? Why insurance companies ignore it? They wouldn't and they would apply penalties to reign in the behaviour.


If we want proper piracy and proper PvP we need the game to orchestrate it and offer it. The mindless paper thin antics we get from griefers at the moment is a shadow of what the game should be promoting.

1-anybody willing to take time to learn can overcome the challenges posed by those who prey on the player "watering holes."
2-my telepathy tells me that you are thinking Fdev will eventually implement a c&p system that stops ganking/murder hoboing, etc from happening; they won't, they can't. Murdering is here to stay, at least in Open.
3-the hint is in the name "Anarchy."

 

[Deleted member 115407]

basically the exact reverse of low/medium/high security systems, which should be a safe haven for the lawful and dangerous for the outlaws. In Anarchies criminal gangs, pirates and raiders should take on the role of the "security response" except they'll be going after clean players in the system and mostly leaving outlaw players alone unless attacked by them. Then we can get some worthwhile gameplay paths out of the C&P system.

Low should remain decidedly unreliable, though, and Medium fairly lazy, as it is today

High security should be all over crimes like white on rice. Getting a fine in a High Sec should bring a bunch of nosy cops, scanning everything and looking to bring the hammer down.

I was thinking of ideas for Anarchy systems - like basing the "security" response on your rep with the controlling Anarchy faction. I don't have enough of an idea to lay it out though.

 

[Han Zulu]

What incentive do I have for playing in open?

For the challenge to avoid and/or take them down. Griefers and gankers are a part of Open, love it or hate it, that's how it is.

 

[Strangepork]

Hey, so I'm in open play just for the hell of it. I'm on my way to Jameson's Memorial to purchase a new ship. I have no passengers, no cargo, no data, nothing. I'm successfully interdicted by a player who opens fire without demands or anything, destroys me for what? For fun? What a joke! What incentive do I have for playing in open?

Feel for you brother, maybe ditch Elite for a game that is properly supported an funded after 3 years.

 

[Martian Successor]

Low should remain decidedly unreliable, though, and Medium fairly lazy, as it is today

High security should be all over crimes like white on rice. Getting a fine in a High Sec should bring a bunch of nosy cops, scanning everything and looking to bring the hammer down.

I was thinking of ideas for Anarchy systems - like basing the "security" response on your rep with the controlling Anarchy faction. I don't have enough of an idea to lay it out though.

I agree with that. Heck, you should be able to bribe the cops in Low security systems. Medium security as it is now with a rather laid back approach from the cops and high security should have uncorruptible, uncompromising Judge Dredd types that can smell a wanted ship in their vicinity like a bloodhound.

 

[NeilF]

1-anybody willing to take time to learn can overcome the challenges posed by those who prey on the player "watering holes."
2-my telepathy tells me that you are thinking Fdev will eventually implement a c&p system that stops ganking/murder hoboing, etc from happening; they won't, they can't. Murdering is here to stay, at least in Open.
3-the hint is in the name "Anarchy."

1 - Indeed you can. But, none the less, it will not make you immune to it. You can end up flying ships you'd prefer not too in an attempt to tank yourself up - which is a shame in itself - but even like this, there's not much to be done when one or more fully engineered ships decide to blow you up for their giggles. Ultimately it seems a shame when a majority need to compromise their experience and fun due to a toxic minority wishing to play cynically.

2 - I'd suggest Derren Brown hasn't got much to worry about then. Even when I've suggested C&P (karma) mechanics I've said it's important to allow random (illegal) murder. What's important it to hold repeat behaviour accountable (no matter where it is).

3 - Hint, "Anarchy" doesn't mean invisible, and shouldn't mean "crap mechanics live here"! There's little to be gained (IMHO) with illegal destruction being ignored in Anarchy systems, and only gains to be made by holding it accountable. If you can comment on what gameplay/mechanics you think will be damaged by such an approach (holding individuals accountable for habitual illegal destruction even in Anarchy systems) I'd be pleased to hear it.

 

[Han_Zen]

1 - Indeed you can. But, none the less, it will not make you immune to it. You can end up flying ships you'd prefer not too in an attempt to tank yourself up - which is a shame in itself - but even like this, there's not much to be done when one or more fully engineered ships decide to blow you up for their giggles. Ultimately it seems a shame when a majority need to compromise their experience and fun due to a toxic minority wishing to play cynically.

Engineered mini maxed player combat ships are far to overpowered(PvE and PvP). This removes the danger aspect for those that bother to build them. This opens the door for giggle killing of both players and NPCs.

These ships are as you say, not something most players want to fly. They are only good for killing.

It is poor game design to allow players access to ships with such properties. Particularly in a game like ED, where combat is a central part of both game play and mythology. Combat focused players will naturally gravitate towards such builds. Either because of the competitive nature of pure PvP or because of the cr/hr focus of many result oriented PvE players. Thargoids make that pull even stronger.

There is absolutely no reason to allow the level of tankyness we can have today. Countering this with extreme weapons, just makes the situation worse. The tankyness is also the reason that ramming used in many situations.

Unless combat builds are balanced against other forms of game play, the combat aspect will suffer. PvP is all but lost all ready. When you need a PvP hub with special rules of engagement, it shows how detached it has become.
PvE combat has received the Thargoids as gift to those that need some content for their over powered ships. PvE bounty hunting is not about wining fights, when you fly an apex build. It's all about speed of kills.

Yesterday, I actually tested the Obsidian rescue missions in open. It was a quiet experience. Two combat ships were hanging about the rescue ship. A Corvette and a FAS, I think. I spotted a couple of ships that seemed to do the missions as well, but not many. No shot were fired, no one tried to ram me. It was more a cold spot, than a hot spot.

I bet I would have seen twice as many, if did the run in the Canonn PG.

Poor balance leads to boring game play that people opt out of. Ramming is typical poor game play. Adding more passive defense to avoid dying from it, does not make it more fun.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

1 - Indeed you can. But, none the less, it will not make you immune to it...

And that is what so many of the anti-PvP crowd are after - total immunity.

 

[Han_Zen]

And that is what so many of the anti-PvP crowd are after - total immunity.

Combat players are quite reluctant to give up their total immunity. That goes for PvPers to.

Some sacrifice that immunity by downsizing their FDS, but that is totally voluntary.

 

[NeilF]

And that is what so many of the anti-PvP crowd are after - total immunity.

Can you give me some stats on "so many"? Is that 12 people? 1200? 12%? Just so we know how significant this "total immunity" number of the community you're mentioning is... And therefore how serious such a wish is?

Personally I just think generally CMDRs would be happier in OPEN if they simply had the notion that mindless illegal destruction (no matter where) was held sensibly accountable. Specifically so habitual mindless (illegal) destruction was prevented/diswaded strongly by the game.

I don't think there's "many" expecting "total immunity"?