Gank of theYear?! These guys are driving people out of Open and ruining the game for everyone

[Hemlock Reaper]

NPCs don't attack an empty craft usually.

NPCs would probably stop attacking if you dropped cargo.


ie: NPCs attacking you are trying to adhere to ingame rules, mechanics and balance.

CMDRs attacking another CMDR simpy to cause them grief is sort of outside these goals...

As long as the ability to attack another player in the game exist, The use of that ability is within the “Goals” of the game. We don't get to decide for another player when he/she gets to use any ability or game function by dictating specific guidelines for the execution of any game choice.

That said, we do need a proper crime and punishment system.

 

[Dash]

There is very little you can do against these groups. I was interdicted by one a while ago in my Python (no cargo, just passing through). Went to type something and the little cobra opened fire, by the time my throttle was up there were three more of them that just tore through me. This was pre-horizons.

If you don't have engineered (e.g. didn't pay for horizons) then you're at a massive disadvantage. If you're against a wing, there is nothing you can do if you're in a trade ship. All these comments of running unshielded, there's simply no point, shields just delay the pain fractionally. You can't escape quick enough.

Keeping an eye out for ships and running away before they get behind you is the only tactic, but even that isn't fool proof. And never, ever, go to anywhere popular as there will be people lying in wait for a quick kill, for the lulz. I play in Open when mincing about, but it's not worth the agro when there is a CG on etc.

 

[Saool]

And why does mobius exist, with tens of thousands of CMDRs? Kind of a sad comment about OPEN?

Yes. Yes it is.

And let's remember probably some of the mobius players are not anti-PvP. They're probably just anti-mindless destruction (ganking).

Also true.


... but my solution works very well for me. So I am happy enough. I would like to play in open but, from my point of view, there are zero benefits to doing so. And since there are no real draw backs to playing in a well populated group like Mobius, other then seeing a few less other commanders, I will continue to do so.

 

[Siranui]

Thanks got that, but what do these guys engineer them too? and Would they be good in PvE?

I imagine that they would certainly be Engineered. The rapid fire modification is probably the one preferred for ganking. Thermal Cascade probably the SFX of choice, because thermal weapons are extremely effective against unprepared players. A rack of them being drag munitions would also probably be fitted, to slow any escapes. Not being a PvPer, I'm not too sure.

What I *do* know is that they are lots of fun and that them moment 2.1 dropped and missiles were 'back in', I was gleefully dusting the dozen racks I have on stored Vipers and putting them on my ships, engineering, and quietly wondering just how long it would be before the PvP players started screaming blue murder about Swarm missiles with thermal cascade (Not long. The real whinging started a few weeks later, when it became a prevalent weapon).

Swarm missiles are very cool to use. Especially if you have multiple racks. It allows you to pretend to be a manga mech pilot firing a hundred missiles at once. They are the most *fun* weapon to use in PvE.

They also *wreck* external components and drives very well. If you can take someone's shields out and pop a rack full into their thrusters, they lose their thrusters. If you are facing a large, well armed vessel, then spraying it with a few racks will nicely reduce their firepower and defences by wrecking weapons and point defences. the sheer number of them overwhelms point defence systems. (I imagine that they might get boned completely by ECM). They are also fun when facing those with chaff if you use gimbals: Just switch to missiles and pop some at them. Especially fun as a stand-off weapon against fighters after you pop the shields.

For PvE the extended magazine option is my preferred modification, as it gives much more staying power compared to the otherwise fairly limited ammunition.

As far as downsides, they take a lot of power to run and create a LOT of heat, especially if used in multiples (which you should do, because FUN!). I now refer to the 'warning temperature critical' alarm my 'you just fired missiles' alarm. The heat issue is certainly something to consider. The other downside is the minimum arming distance and lock-on time, which makes them a poor weapon in a knife-fight with an agile ship - you need to back off to stand-off range.

Why there is no group (as the fuel rats) that can punish the gankers ?

Fuel Rats are not a PvP organisation. It would be like Shell going after the US army.

Ultimately, providing gankers with additional attention is slightly self-defeating. It gives them what they want, to a degree: Either a good fight, or attention which they can get a laugh out of simply by logging off and managing instancing so 'those idiots' intent on pursuing them are chasing vacuum. either way, they kind of win.

It's also hard to do because it requires rapid, defensive deployment to a quite large game-area, against foes who can move around in other modes and attack where they like, when they like, with no notice. It's possible for people to defend an area for a limited time, but serious ongoing operations are not very viable. Essentially, it's asymmetric and the ganky players have a massive operational advantage, in addition to generally being better motivated to do 'their' thing than the players engaged in defensive operations.

 

[deleteduser]

Many people don't know about the high wake [mechanic] TBH.

People on this forum often confuse their knowledge, and their fellow poster's knowledge as the norm. I suspect many/most players are unaware of the [way the FSD works].

I seriously doubt that; every single 'X got griefed' thread, is full of posts from users on how to avoid getting griefed. I've contributed posts myself in the short time I've been using this forum, directly informing anyone who cares to read them, about the FSD behaviour.

 

[NeilF]

Yes...yes, they do. In a RES they will not but in SC they will interdict ships at random and attack before they've bothered scanning

Would you agree that's typically on the pretence of piracy? eg: Drop some cargo and they'll hopefully stop shooting?

Piracy? That corner stone profession of ED? Remember that pebble FD put into the game 2yrs ago, and apparently say, "All done!"

 

[Wolfox]

Open Free game, welcome to reality, I think the guy in the T9 was thinking he was in Solo Mode.
Also I went to a HQ to collect those stupid merits, while going there at the station where the HQ of my Power are located I was taken down from e Volture driven by another player of another Power!! And I was thinking I was in a Safe location, but it's not!!
Now I want to understand better Elite, so Fùkit I play in Solo Mode!

 

[RamirezKurita]

While I can see why people want to reduce the amount of player killing going on, I don't agree with creating one set of rules for players and another set for NPCs. We are not super special snowflakes, we are just random guys in the galaxy, so the system shouldn't penalise player kills any more than unwarranted NPC kills.

What's needed is for a working set of law enforcers in high-security systems, reasonable bounties for those that destroy ships (likely based on the insurance rebuy values), and to remove the exploits to easily clear bounties from your name (I suggested before to make dying only remove bounties equal to the rebuy of your ship rather than all of them to prevent the suicidewinder exploit).

 

[sniper fish]

Having different rules for CMDR and NPC crime is poor form - a correct crime/punishment system doesn't need to resorting to this as a plaster because it would cover punishments off properly against anyone.

It also contravenes the current system that your crime is only applicable in systems lead by the faction your bounty is in. Perhaps this is part of what needs to be adjusted - as bounties build up, you lose right/resources all around.

In any case I can see you are trying to be productive. This is the wrong thread for that

NPC's aren't members of the independent pilots federation afaik (I might be wrong) so the punishment for murdering another Cmdr is handed down by the pilots federation and is galaxy wide in my example. The pilots fed is all knowing apparently having galnet and such.

Your right though my friend, this is the wrong thread for anything constructive, I really should know better by now

 

[smiths121]

Ultimately, providing gankers with additional attention is slightly self-defeating. It gives them what they want, to a degree: Either a good fight, or attention which they can get a laugh out of simply by logging off and managing instancing so 'those idiots' intent on pursuing them are chasing vacuum. either way, they kind of win.

It's also hard to do because it requires rapid, defensive deployment to a quite large game-area, against foes who can move around in other modes and attack where they like, when they like, with no notice. It's possible for people to defend an area for a limited time, but serious ongoing operations are not very viable. Essentially, it's asymmetric and the ganky players have a massive operational advantage, in addition to generally being better motivated to do 'their' thing than the players engaged in defensive operations.

In all seriousness..
This is the problem I see with upping bounties in a change to crime and punishment. Short of using NPCs to hound them gankers out of systems they have bounties for, crime and punishment is not going to solve what is a "behavioral" problem not a "mechanics" problem. I think a lot of players would not like the game to up its reaction to Wanted - as some people do naughty things like smuggling and assassination.

A lot of players suggest better PvP bounty hunter tools - myself included. If you step back and think, well we know Gankers go to CGs, so where are all the protectors in CGs?
From these forums I assume all rare locations, engineer bases and CGs are swarming with huge numbers of naughty players - just waiting to kill me. All we can do is get the game to hound the Gankers, as I am not convinced there are enough PvP bounty hunters, certainly not organised.

Less eriously, as an lternative - we can all encourage Star Citizen say how wonderful it is. Hey its got pay to win, so the rich ganker types will naturally go there, as they can buy the perfect combat ship. Problem solved. So no more slagging off Star Citizen it is the savior Elite Dangerous.

Simon

 

[StiTch]

Would you agree that's typically on the pretence of piracy? eg: Drop some cargo and they'll hopefully stop shooting?

Piracy? That corner stone profession of ED? Remember that pebble FD put into the game 2yrs ago, and apparently say, "All done!"

I won't take a pop at mobius but it's the deliberate hysteria over Open incidents that makes piracy less viable, and encourages people thinking CLing is okay.

But no, it's not always on the pretense of piracy. I frequently get interdicted by someone yelling "your cargo or your life" stuff as their lasers make contact with me. If I set up a macro that says "hi mate I am a pirate!" and use it when I launch an attack, does that mean the gank was okay by you?

NPC's aren't members of the independent pilots federation afaik (I might be wrong) so the punishment for murdering another Cmdr is handed down by the pilots federation and is galaxy wide in my example. The pilots fed is all knowing apparently having galnet and such.

Your right though my friend, this is the wrong thread for anything constructive, I really should know better by now

You are correct in that respect, but I don't believe the federation has any direct authority over you. It's the faction's police that attack you for crimes, police you, take care of fines etc.

It's part of a worthwhile discussion about crime but I implore you to take that to a thread about crime and punishment so you can add your reasonable voice to theirs.

 

[RamirezKurita]

NPC's aren't members of the independent pilots federation afaik (I might be wrong) so the punishment for murdering another Cmdr is handed down by the pilots federation and is galaxy wide in my example. The pilots fed is all knowing apparently having galnet and such.

Your right though my friend, this is the wrong thread for anything constructive, I really should know better by now

If NPCs aren't part of the Pilot's Federation, then how come they have a Pilot's Federation combat rank?

 

[NeilF]

While I can see why people want to reduce the amount of player killing going on, I don't agree with creating one set of rules for players and another set for NPCs. We are not super special snowflakes, we are just random guys in the galaxy, so the system shouldn't penalise player kills any more than unwarranted NPC kills.

What's needed is for a working set of law enforcers in high-security systems, reasonable bounties for those that destroy ships (likely based on the insurance rebuy values), and to remove the exploits to easily clear bounties from your name (I suggested before to make dying only remove bounties equal to the rebuy of your ship rather than all of them to prevent the suicidewinder exploit).

Alas, the punishment needs to filter down to everywhere IMHO. Ask yourself... When was the last time you destroyed another CMDR, and why?

Surely if there was a reason, it should be OK.

If there wasn't a reason, it should be penalised.

Consider lovely gankers who fly out to exploration hot spots? Remember the destructions at SagA for the lolz? What benefit was that to the game?

As regards, us not being special in the game?
1) We are in The Pilots Federation.
2) We react slightly differently to NPCs - I don't recall any NPCs complaining of being ganked?

 

[RobLocksley]

I'll tell you what. I go to see my shrink on Thursday. I'll pose this question to her and see what she has to say about it. I'll even print out our debate so she can read it.
<snip>

One part of being 'sane' is that we might think 'I wonder what they'll think if I just pull my pants down' and don't do it thinking 'man, that is some crazy thinking'. If one does not even contenplate or wonder if one might do a crazy thing and stop doing it becuase one think it is crazy - it is a sign of a crazy mind. I think your shrink will point this out.

There are some legality issues where someone can get judged and even legaly sentenced without there being a victim (whitch I find very strange no matter the issue at hand) but killing someone in a game that is not an NPC is victimizing someone, even if it is in a very low degree.

In any case, you are free to kill me ingame anytime if it helps you cope with real life and not do something stupid [heart]
Billions have been killed in CS games but statistics for murder haven't actually gone up as the detractors of violent games like to think. Clearly there is a dchotomy between real life and actions taken in a game.

Still think that Crime should be looked at and that players (even those considered Gankers) should be given a purpose within the game that will satisfy in some part all Cmdr.

Cheers

 

[Leo Sagan]

Let me guess : FD is still unable to produce even the beginning of a crimes and punishment system and open is just a noobs trap who are fool enough to try to play there, right ? Oh but give them time, this disgrace has been going since ... errr ... wait ... *cough* launch.

U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e. It is getting harder and harder to find you excuses FD.

 

[NeilF]

But no, it's not always on the pretense of piracy. I frequently get interdicted by someone yelling "your cargo or your life" stuff as their lasers make contact with me. If I set up a macro that says "hi mate I am a pirate!" and use it when I launch an attack, does that mean the gank was okay by you?

I don't think there's anyway around piracy other than it becoming about the extraction of cargo, and not an excuse to destroy the CMDR. I can't see any way around it. I think if you open fire on a Pilots Federation member, and then blow them up, you should be penalised.

Now whether this is a hard and fast rule, or an escalating scale so "infrequent accidents" are not too painful, I don't know.

 

[StiTch]

I don't think there's anyway around piracy other than it becoming about the extraction of cargo, and not an excuse to destroy the CMDR. I can't see any way around it. I think if you open fire on a Pilots Federation member, and then blow them up, you should be penalised.

Now whether this is a hard and fast rule, or an escalating scale so "infrequent accidents" are not too painful, I don't know.

Meh, not sure what you mean in this bit.

Was just saying that NPCs will exhibit the behaviour being damned here - will interdict and attack at will, sometimes with a message about pirating you even though they've gone straight for the kill.

 

[Red Anders]

So uh.. You do realize that the video game world and the real world are two different things, right?

I get that griefing/trolling isn't fun for the person being targeted but lets stop taking the step to label the perpetrators as mentally deficient in some way, shape or form. I can come home on my lunch break, troll/gank people in a variety of games (and do this most days), then go back to work and continue to be empathetic with my co-workers, customers and supervisors and just generally live and do things as a normal person does them without harboring some sick, twisted sociopathic daydream in the back of my mind.

Mind you, for me, Elite is dangerously close (haha) to being just another version of the pointless Rust/H1Z1/DayZ crap sandbox type of game that I tend to avoid. I don't enjoy it when the only thing there is to do is attack other players. That gets boring fast.

So lets all take a step back, take a breath, slow down and quit getting our panties twisted over people who choose to play the game differently than you would prefer them to. We all know C&P needs a dramatic overhaul as well, but claiming that mental illness is a contributing factor to players who gank at random is pretty much the most childish thing I've seen since this game launched.

This post is worthy of mention just for the amount of self-delusion included within it.

Firstly, this thread is discussing pvp interaction within a video game which by definition means that your interaction is with other people. That makes those interactions real-life ones. the fact that you may not know the other people and can't see them doesn't make them any less real. Well, other than in a seriously delusional mind.

Secondly, the player you replied to (who is actually a clinical psychologist if I recall correctly) is discussing behaviour and your ability to empathise with other people. I'd say you just did a spectacular job of proving his point.

The core issue isn't actually the one you seem to think it is - that just because you behave one way in your 'real life' face-to-face encounters and in another whilst gaming, it somehow means your behaviours whilst gaming are not 'real' in some way. The ships that get blown up in a game aren't real, the money isn't real but behaviour is real no matter where or how you display it. In short, when you do those things in a game you are satisfying a need that you have to do them, or else why else would you do them?

Now I have no idea what outlet you would find for that need were you not to play computer games. Perhaps you wouldn't need to find one at all and would just suppress that part of your personality. It is however undisputably a part of your personality, unless what you're actually telling us here is that you often find yourself doing things which you don't want to do, without any idea of why you are doing them.

 

[Truesilver]

Why there is no group (as the fuel rats) that can punish the gankers ?

Well, there is my former player group, Adle's Armada, who are great guys and still very active.

The organiser of the Gank of the Year awards, Phil T Casual, is a member of Smiling Dog Crew.

Very sportingly, Cmdr Phil included a superb vid of AA absolutely murdering him amongst the finallists ...

(NB may wish to cut forwards to about 3:20 if you don't want the build up and note - some raw comms audio!)

[video=youtube_share;JubXHYa3W1o]https://youtu.be/JubXHYa3W1o[/video]

Ah, now that's what I call wing discipline ... it brings a tear to my eye to see that PvP Cutter simply ABOLISHED by my old buddies ... one can never tire of vigilante execution.

 

[DukeIronHand]

I didn't read all 10 pages - and it's probably already been said but...
"Your in Open. What were you expecting."
Certainly in a unshielded Space Cow - and it's one of my favorite ships.