Engineers Getting Elite rank in combat to unlock Petra Olmanova

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
Just as alternatives: Here's a minimum engineering Chief, and here's a minimum engineering Krait II the way I would probably build them, funds and materials allowing (focussing on shield and engine engineering). If you insist in it, you could swap one of the HD boosters for a KWS. But if it's combat rank and learning combat in general you're after, I wouldn't bother. I haven't flown a Chief in a very long time, so I'm not sure if this is the optimum weapon layout.
 

Greasetrap42

Greasetrap42
Keeping in mind the OP is doing combat purely to get combat rank to expert so when they travel to Colonia they can unlock Petra Olmanova.

  • Any reasonable combat ship should be able to accomplish this pretty well. No need to make the perfect ship.
  • I recommend remembering the goal. No need to spend huge game time upgrading a combat ship when you could be killing pirates -> balance. Of course a better ship kills pirates faster with less risk. Balance.
  • If the OP is planning on going to Colonia they might be leaving any dedicated combat ship behind (?) If so, excess effort to make an amazing combat ship gets abandoned. The time & effort to make the combat ship should be balanced with the time to achieve the combat rank. If the OP has a ship that is "good enough" to make kills... that might be good enough. I caution going down the path of spending oodles of time making an awesome combat ship.
  • If the OP is using the Anaconda intended for the trip to Colonia as the combat ship, might want to balance what gets upgraded and engineered.
  • If the OP is planning on traveling by fleet carrier and bringing stuff with them, then disregard most of what I said.

That's a lot of ifs.
 

Noonien Soong

Noonien Soong
I got enough material together to make this build:

EDSY

EDSY is a ship outfitting tool for Elite Dangerous
edsy.org edsy.org

I have incindary on the huge hardpoint so I guess I have to group that one together with the pulse lasers. Then kill warant scanner on the second mouse button. Then the other multi cannons together in one group. Did I understand that correctly?
 

Greasetrap42

Greasetrap42
I would have engineered the shields for thermal resistance.

Your shield thermal resistance is -5.4% which is really low for a PvE combat ship. If you have the mats I would recommend:
  • Change the shields to G3 thermal (or better)
  • Engineer a shield booster to G3 thermal (or better)
  • Engineer the other two shield boosters to G3 resistance augmented (or better)

This would get your thermal resistance to 42%. This is good, and if you have the mats to G4 the shields it will go to 50%. Which is great. Good shields means you can fight more aggressively and sloppy without worrying about damage.

Edit: Shields engineered with "reinforced" are good if you are going to smack into rocks. A good high raw shield value. Good for non-combat exploration ships. Maybe fighting Thargoids. For general PVE combat its good to try to balance the shield resistances (kinetic, thermal, explosive) up to 50%, then after that improve shield raw value with shield boosters engineered with heavy duty.

Edit: For most ships I would recommend engineering the Distributer with Charge Enhanced plus Superconduits. This gives good recharge for weapons, shields, and engines. A ship that never sees combat (deep space exploration), Engine Focused. A ship that needs it all on weapons (surface laser mining) Weapon Focused.
 
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Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
Greasetrap42 said:
I would have engineered the shields for thermal resistance.

Your shield thermal resistance is -5.4% which is really low for a PvE combat ship. If you have the mats I would recommend:
  • Change the shields to G3 thermal (or better)
  • Engineer a shield booster to G3 thermal (or better)
  • Engineer the other two shield boosters to G3 resistance augmented (or better)

This would get your thermal resistance to 42%. This is good, and if you have the mats to G4 the shields it will go to 50%. Which is great. Good shields means you can fight more aggressively and sloppy without worrying about damage.

Edit: Shields engineered with "reinforced" are good if you are going to smack into rocks. A good high raw shield value. Good for non-combat exploration ships. Maybe fighting Thargoids. For general PVE combat its good to try to balance the shield resistances (kinetic, thermal, explosive) up to 50%, then after that improve shield raw value with shield boosters engineered with heavy duty.

Edit: For most ships I would recommend engineering the Distributer with Charge Enhanced plus Superconduits. This gives good recharge for weapons, shields, and engines. A ship that never sees combat (deep space exploration), Engine Focused. A ship that needs it all on weapons (surface laser mining) Weapon Focused.
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I guess that's a matter of preference. Thermal resistance kills a third of your raw shields compared to reinforced. Better to plug the hole with a thermal booster, in my opinion. Add a resistance augmented if needed. Many ways to skin a cat.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
I was doubting myself a bit, so I did some math.

To elaborate on my thought process a bit more: In my opinion, relying on resistances with a weak base shield is a bad strategy. NPCs don't adhere strictly to the "lasers for shields" rule - from a certain level up they will frequently use Plasmas and Rails, which both deal substantial absolute damage (edit: that was actually wrong - Rails to 66% thermal and 33% kinetic damage). And they almost never miss. Sooner or later one will come up against an enemy that, by and large, ignores resistances. Shields that rely on resistances too much are also part of the reason why people get deleted in seconds by gankers. Good raw values are not just good against rocks. Absolute damage weapons exist. Also, strong base shields are good for ramming (and against it too) ;).

A reinforced shield with the thermal hole plugged (via thermal booster or resistance augmented, depends a bit - on some builds I even get away with just HD/SC boosters as long as I get the thermal resistance in the plus) will give you a few MJ short of what thermal resistant shields will give you, but your other resistances against kinetic, explosive or absolute damage will be much, much stronger.

Soong's above linked Conda doesn't have engineered boosters yet. If we stay with three boosters for now, here are the maths with four PIPs in SYS - both times two G3 HD boosters and one G3 thermal booster, and we keep the shields at G4 for now:

Thermal resistant G4: Raw 1133, with PIPs 2833, Kinetic 3760, Thermal 4581, Explosive 5235.
Reinforced G4: Raw 1495, with PIPs 3793, Kinetic 6657, Thermal 4194, Explosive 7988.

Same builds, only difference is the shield generator engineering.

The difference against thermal damage is miniscule by comparison, and the other stats are way better. The downside is, of course, that the build and regen time go up by about 30 seconds - that's the nature of a large MJ pool. But that's okay for PvE in RES sites, you can disengage and recharge easily if needed.

In general, you want very strong base stats, especially with a slow moving whale like the conda. Thermal resistant engineering on shields is almost always a waste in my opinion. I know from experience. I have thrown quite a few of them because in my early days I was too focused on resistances.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk ;).
 
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Greasetrap42

Greasetrap42
Helmut Grokenberger said:
To elaborate on my thought process a bit more: In my opinion, relying on resistances with a weak base shield is a bad strategy. NPCs don't adhere strictly to the "lasers for shields" rule - from a certain level up they will frequently use Plasmas and Rails, which both deal substantial absolute damage (edit: that was actually wrong - Rails to 66% thermal and 33% kinetic damage). And they almost never miss. Sooner or later one will come up against an enemy that, by and large, ignores resistances. Shields that rely on resistances too much are also part of the reason why people get deleted in seconds by gankers. Good raw values are not just good against rocks. Absolute damage weapons exist. Also, strong base shields are good for ramming (and against it too) ;).
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Certainly not the traditional advice for ranking up combat in a PvE combat build. But doesn't matter, in an Anaconda the OP will be ranked up to expert shortly and will be on his way.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
I don't know about "traditional" (what is traditional anyway?), but I'd argue proper build theory does matter, more so in the long run, as things are only going to get harder once the NPC level exceeds Expert. They do use a lot of Plasmas, and even ram you. Over-reliance on resistance has lead to many a tearful thread in the past where people didn't understand why their (resistance heavy) shields drop too quickly, or (to reiterate) why they get deleted in seconds when they meet a ganker (that, and skipping hull day). Also, the maths don't lie.

This isn't "just about ranking up". This is as much about learning and understanding about proper build mechanics for the future. Give a man a fish and all that.
 
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Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
I have a few remarks, if you don't mind.

  • You should make use of your secondary fire button; for instance, put your thermal weapons (lasers and incendiary MCs) on secondary fire, and your kinetic ones on primary. That way you have control over which weapon type drains the WEP cap when, and when you spend ammo or not. Firing non-incendiary MCs while the shields are up does little beyond wasting ammo. Conversely, You might save on WEP charge once the enemy shields are down (lasers are heavy on WEP compared to MCs) and just pelt them with the kinetic MCs, which is much less load on the WEP cap. Distributing your weapons across primary and secondary gives you control over WEP load and ammo usage.
  • tying into this, you're not making use of your PIPs. You keep your PIPs in WEP (I think you're flying with static 0-2.5-3.5, image is a bit blurry on my small laptop screen), because firing all your weapons all the time drains it, even when you're head on attacked. Flying with 0 PIPs in SYS means you have the weakest possible shield values, and that is why your shields are melting - you cannot face tank enemy damage with 0 PIPs in SYS. Two PIPs in SYS means 1.5 times stronger shields than the base MJ, four PIPs is 2.5 times. Make use of that. Also, your shields cannot recharge from an empty SYS cap, so even in moments where you might get a break you're shields aren't coming back.
  • You're also very slow to turn, and that's not just because it's a flying whale. For one, putting four PIPs into ENG makes you turn much faster, and second, you keep your throttle at full all the time. Your ship actually turns fastest when your throttle is in the "blue zone" next to the speed indicator.

You have to turn in the optimal throttle range, and make use of your PIPs - adjust them according to the battle situation. That means you need to consciously differentiate between attack, defense and repositioning runs. Ideally you are constantly changing your PIPs. I cannot tell you how to do that best, because I fly with HOSAS. It might be a bit of a challenge with mouse and keyboard, I have no idea.

Also, I highly recommend making your way to Tod and putting corrosive shell on one of your small MCs. Only one, it does not stack, but it helps immensely.
 
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Noonien Soong

Noonien Soong
I put corosive on the smallest multi cannon. I think I will put my weapons on one fire group then like you suggested divided in two buttons and the limpit controller on an other fire group and not group the other modules at all. Otherwise I have to search through the fire groups each time I change fire groups.

How do I find the blue zone on my throttle? I will try to control the pips better next time.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
The blue zone is marked on the speed indicator, which has a numeric display at the top to show your current speed, and a segment display with a horizontal "needle" showing your current throttle below that - it's to the right of the scanner. On the left side of that segment bar is a blue streak that marks the optimal turning zone. The center of that blue area is at 50% throttle in normal space and 75% in supercruise. Keep the "needle" in that blue area for optimal turning.

Using different fire groups for weapons, utilities, scanners and such is a good idea; that's what they are there for. You don't need limpet control while you're dogfighting, collect your mats when you're done fighting. Also don't forget to retract your cargo scoop when you're done collecting, because it will slow your down massively and prevent boosting.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
Oh, and don't be discouraged by all this "do this, do that". We all had to go through those learning phases, and I would bet not many people figured this stuff out all by themselves ;). Just keep doing it, practice is the key (y) .
 

Noonien Soong

Noonien Soong
Ok man. I tried again this evening. I put my weapons in a control group with pulse laser and incendiary multi cannon on one button and the other multi cannons on the other button. On an other fire group I got limpit controller and heat sink. I didn't bind the other modules at all.

I kept my thruster in the blue and tried to control the pips. I destroyed two ships and think it went well. I wasn't able to find any more wanted ships in three different resource collection sites and went home to Tod the Blaster to hand in bounties.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8GHeNDMM3o


Edit: linked the wrong video
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8GHeNDMM3o
 
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Greasetrap42

Greasetrap42
Helmut Grokenberger said:
I don't know about "traditional" (what is traditional anyway?), but I'd argue proper build theory does matter, more so in the long run, as things are only going to get harder once the NPC level exceeds Expert
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I spent the last hour searching the internet for anybody's recommendation of a PvE combat ship with resistances set under 10% (or 40%) nevermind in the negatives, in favor of raw shield values. Its not until players have full access to G5 engineering and tons of mats that ship builds might focus on raw values, but even those all have reasonable resistances. Certainly there are many ways to achieve good builds.

Telling a new player to forget about shield resistances, just focus on raw shield values is not good advice.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
Greasetrap42 said:
I spent the last hour searching the internet for anybody's recommendation of a PvE combat ship with resistances set under 10% (or 40%) nevermind in the negatives, in favor of raw shield values.
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This is twisting my words. I did not "recommend" to go with negative resistances. I gave you real world reasons and showed you the math why foregoing good raw base values in favor of high resistances is counterproductive, especially when you can reach the same or even better shield protection by simply choosing a different blueprint for the generator while keeping everything else the same.

Greasetrap42 said:
Its not until players have full access to G5 engineering and tons of mats that ship builds might focus on raw values, but even those all have reasonable resistances. Certainly there are many ways to achieve good builds.
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This is demonstrably wrong. My examples above worked with G3 boosters, and I stuck with the G4 shield only because OP already had G4'ed his. G3 engineering is comparably easy. Go and modify the two Condas I linked to have G3 shields, the result will be the same: Just swapping the same grade engineering on the generator from thermal to reinforced while keeping the same three G3 boosters will result in much better protection. There is not much to discuss here. Look at the numbers.

Greasetrap42 said:
Telling a new player to forget about shield resistances, just focus on raw shield values is not good advice.
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Again, twisting my words. I didn't say "forget about resistances", I said it is a bad strategy to rely completely on resistances. And I showed you the math why. I don't care that "the internet" (probably in the form of Youtube build guides and the like) doesn't recommend it. Many of the more popular build guides on YT are just plain bad.

In case it eluded you: I am telling players to do the math instead of blindly following flawed "community" or "traditional" recommendations. And I demonstrated the maths. Do you really want to argue with me that the numbers I calculated above are worse than what you get with thermal resistant shields? Where is the advantage in having weak base shields with blown up resistances?

Here they are again:
Thermal resistant G4: Raw 1133, with PIPs 2833, Kinetic 3760, Thermal 4581, Explosive 5235.
Reinforced G4: Raw 1495, with PIPs 3793, Kinetic 6657, Thermal 4194, Explosive 7988.

and again: The only difference is the thermal vs. reinforced engineering, the boosters are the same G3 engineering.

Which one should you choose?
 
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