Give Turrets full fixed weapon damage.

[DemiserofD]

Turrets are almost universally garbage. Nobody uses them. They do too little damage for too little benefit, even on the slowest and least agile ships.

So here's an idea. Give them full fixed weapon damage. When they are in fixed mode, they are exactly identical to a fixed weapon, except they're more expensive to buy.

But in turreted mode, under AI control, they reduce their fire rate by 50%. This gives them the same damage they have at present, AND the same DPE.

BUT, in MULTICREW mode, they can be fired at their full fire rate by the gunner, getting both turreting AND fixed weapon DPS.

This creates a situation where it actually makes sense to carry turreted weapons even flying solo, which in turn makes having a gunner actually make sense, too. Everybody wins.

 

[GoldenSilver484]

The main issue I find with turrets is the "fatigue" mechanic.

It's most observable when using beam turrets (which don't have a RoF that could be halved) against a more maneuverable ship, or even when your own ship is able to maneuver fairly quickly.

The turrets will begin lagging behind the target for a few seconds, then snap back onto target, only to immediately start lagging again, resulting in the turret missing well over half the time.
It's especially bad against small ships, you know, the exact ones that you'd use turrets on a larger ship for.

I'd be perfectly fine with them being the most expensive and doing the least damage, if their main benefit of being able to shoot at anything within the arc of the hardpoint wasn't hampered by such a terrible mechanic.

 

[Mohrgan]

Why not just request that Turrets are buffed when used in Telepresence? That is the basic jist of your suggestion. Right?

 

[DemiserofD]

Why not just request that Turrets are buffed when used in Telepresence? That is the basic jist of your suggestion. Right?

Not precisely. If they're not good for solo play, they'll never be outfitted in the first place, and telepresence won't be an option.

Far better to make them good IN GENERAL, and then people will have them, and telepresence becomes a much more viable option.

 

[Insane4un]

The main issue I find with turrets is the "fatigue" mechanic.

It's most observable when using beam turrets (which don't have a RoF that could be halved) against a more maneuverable ship, or even when your own ship is able to maneuver fairly quickly.

The turrets will begin lagging behind the target for a few seconds, then snap back onto target, only to immediately start lagging again, resulting in the turret missing well over half the time.
It's especially bad against small ships, you know, the exact ones that you'd use turrets on a larger ship for.

I'd be perfectly fine with them being the most expensive and doing the least damage, if their main benefit of being able to shoot at anything within the arc of the hardpoint wasn't hampered by such a terrible mechanic.

I believe "lagging" is happening because of Leading targeting mode. Turrets are not unique to this mode, so if you have Leading, they will follow target movements, not target itself, hence they are lagging behind them. Try to switch targeting mode to Trailing when using any hitscan type weapon (beams, pulses, bursts), turrets will start catching up with ships more efficiently with Trailing targeting. Leading however is very effective with multicannon and cannon turrets.

 

[heathenlamb]

Turrets are almost universally garbage. Nobody uses them. They do too little damage for too little benefit, even on the slowest and least agile ships.

So here's an idea. Give them full fixed weapon damage. When they are in fixed mode, they are exactly identical to a fixed weapon, except they're more expensive to buy.

But in turreted mode, under AI control, they reduce their fire rate by 50%. This gives them the same damage they have at present, AND the same DPE.

BUT, in MULTICREW mode, they can be fired at their full fire rate by the gunner, getting both turreting AND fixed weapon DPS.

This creates a situation where it actually makes sense to carry turreted weapons even flying solo, which in turn makes having a gunner actually make sense, too. Everybody wins.

I use them on every ship. I like them as is.

 

[aRJay]

I use turrets and gimbals on almost everything.
My issue is that to make fixed weapons a viable choice they nerfed the damage and boosted jitter/inaccuracies which is wrong a single shell hitting would do the same damage no matter the weapon was mounted.
So regardless of targeting mode and number of people on the ship I think damage per hit should be the same for all mounts.
But to appease the fixed weapon fans* jitter/inaccuracies remain as they are.

I believe "lagging" is happening because of Leading targeting mode. Turrets are not unique to this mode, so if you have Leading, they will follow target movements, not target itself, hence they are lagging behind them. Try to switch targeting mode to Trailing when using any hitscan type weapon (beams, pulses, bursts), turrets will start catching up with ships more efficiently with Trailing targeting. Leading however is very effective with multicannon and cannon turrets.

I will have to try this on my all laser builds.
It would be nice to be able to set this per weapon for mixed builds.

 

[DemiserofD]

I use turrets and gimbals on almost everything.
My issue is that to make fixed weapons a viable choice they nerfed the damage and boosted jitter/inaccuracies which is wrong a single shell hitting would do the same damage no matter the weapon was mounted.
So regardless of targeting mode and number of people on the ship I think damage per hit should be the same for all mounts.
But to appease the fixed weapon fans* jitter/inaccuracies remain as they are.


I will have to try this on my all laser builds.
It would be nice to be able to set this per weapon for mixed builds.

An old game called StarLancer had a really great and logical explanation for this. Every bullet did the same amount of damage, but the automated targeting reduced the fire rate to compensate for the increased Jitter as a result of the flexible mount. Players could swap between an assist with reduced fire rate, and fixed mounting, with maximum fire rate. It worked really well, and encouraged players to learn how to aim better, even while leaving them the option of an assist if they still needed it.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

So here's an idea. Give them full fixed weapon damage. When they are in fixed mode, they are exactly identical to a fixed weapon, except they're more expensive to buy.

How would this work with power requirements/distributor draw/thermal load/breach damage and potential other stats that can differ from the turreted version?

 

[DemiserofD]

How would this work with power requirements/distributor draw/thermal load/breach damage and potential other stats that can differ from the turreted version?

As far as I can tell, they would pretty much balance out. They have similar DPE, and roughly half the DPS, so by bumping the damage and distributor draw up but bringing the fire rate down, you would end up with basically the same exact performance as right now, just moved around a little bit.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Might end up a bit odd with turreted frags

- halving the ROF of frags barely slows them down in terms of DPS/DPE, because most of the delay is in the reload time, not the time between shots
- but the damage stays doubled and you no longer have to aim

Countered a bit by the turret AI likely firing them at a fair bit longer than optimal range, but still likely makes them strictly superior to fixed/gimbal frags (since it's not as if any variant of frags needs or benefits much from precise aim)

 

[DemiserofD]

Might end up a bit odd with turreted frags

- halving the ROF of frags barely slows them down in terms of DPS/DPE, because most of the delay is in the reload time, not the time between shots
- but the damage stays doubled and you no longer have to aim

Countered a bit by the turret AI likely firing them at a fair bit longer than optimal range, but still likely makes them strictly superior to fixed/gimbal frags (since it's not as if any variant of frags needs or benefits much from precise aim)

Good point, nice catch. That said... does anyone actually use turreted frags at the moment? That seems like a really unwise choice most of the time. The slow projectile speed and spread means they'll very rarely hit.

I know I tried to use turreted shards for AX, and even though shards have basically twice the projectile speed, and even though Thargoids are much bigger than your typical ship, they almost never hit. You basically had to have your nose to their hull. This would be twice as bad.

To be honest, the more I think about it, I don't think it would be a huge issue. Yeah, there would be some cases where it'd be very strong, but a lot of cases where it'd be completely useless.

 

[oblivionmanman 2476]

i havnt fully read these posts but i have always wonderd turreted or gimbeld weapons.if you fit a fifty cal gun to a fixed mount the gun deliver x amount of damage if you take that same weapon anf fix it to a radar guided mount same gun should deliver same damage . most modern fighters have a lock on system why cant the space ships.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

BUT, in MULTICREW mode, they can be fired at their full fire rate by the gunner, getting both turreting AND fixed weapon DPS.

IIRC in multicrew some turreted weapons actually had zero jitter which was actually a decent buff so that + fixed weapon DPS would be extra overpowered.

As far as I can tell, they would pretty much balance out. They have similar DPE, and roughly half the DPS, so by bumping the damage and distributor draw up but bringing the fire rate down, you would end up with basically the same exact performance as right now, just moved around a little bit.

The issue with this is that it would generate a ton of UI problems and things that would need to be explained to newer players about power management.

There's also various engineering mods that affect all these stats that would have to be re-calculated whenever you switch firing modes. On top of stuff like "does a bullet fired in fixed mode that hits after the shooter has switched to turret mode do full damage?" that are an implementation nightmare.

 

[Exeider]

Turrets are almost universally garbage. Nobody uses them.

Um, I use turrets... To great effect actually. They are great at proc-ing "effect" mods, heat damage, module damage, etc.

 

[oblivionmanman 2476]

apart from pvp any weapon in pve can be effective if used right,i only play pve and dont use fixed weapons as my hand to eye co-ord is now shot ,age thing lol,i was just saying that a weapon is a weapon no matter what mount it is in,not saying the game should be changed far to late for that,o well there you go said what i wanted 07 cmdrs

 

[aRJay]

Good point, nice catch. That said... does anyone actually use turreted frags at the moment? That seems like a really unwise choice most of the time. The slow projectile speed and spread means they'll very rarely hit.

I have just started trying a Mandalay with 4 turreted Frags on it, not played with it much yet because of colonisation. The turrets have better fire discipline than I do not firing until they are properly in range. Like me they do miss a bit but seem to be quite effective when they don’t.

I know I tried to use turreted shards for AX, and even though shards have basically twice the projectile speed, and even though Thargoids are much bigger than your typical ship, they almost never hit. You basically had to have your nose to their hull. This would be twice as bad.

To be honest, the more I think about it, I don't think it would be a huge issue. Yeah, there would be some cases where it'd be very strong, but a lot of cases where it'd be completely useless.

 

[Screemonster]

Good point, nice catch. That said... does anyone actually use turreted frags at the moment? That seems like a really unwise choice most of the time. The slow projectile speed and spread means they'll very rarely hit.

Turreted frags basically don't shoot until you're inside 500m. Fun to put on a hardpoint that doesn't converge well with the others and use as a ram-enhancer.

 

[Kissamies]

Um, I use turrets... To great effect actually. They are great at proc-ing "effect" mods, heat damage, module damage, etc.

Me too. I don't use them for damage. I put them on smaller hardpoints to get whatever experimental effect on target longer. My bigger ships are usually fixed + turret. Not as much gimbals as other people.

I have an instance of using turreted frag too. Pretty neat for clumsy ship that may end up making close jousts. Shards have the same AI. Does hit the Scouts, but not very effectively and 500m is too close for interceptors.

 

[DemiserofD]

Me too. I don't use them for damage. I put them on smaller hardpoints to get whatever experimental effect on target longer. My bigger ships are usually fixed + turret. Not as much gimbals as other people.

I have an instance of using turreted frag too. Pretty neat for clumsy ship that may end up making close jousts. Shards have the same AI. Does hit the Scouts, but not very effectively and 500m is too close for interceptors.

Um, I use turrets... To great effect actually. They are great at proc-ing "effect" mods, heat damage, module damage, etc.

Fair enough, but I don't think this would significantly change that. If anything, it'd probably help, because you'd conserve ammo!

Meanwhile, it would open the door to multicrew! Right now, having someone crew in and control the turret is mostly a downside, due to inconsistency compared to the normal turret operation. With this, you could do it either way - OR swap to fixed for max damage yourself!