Griefing is a valid way to play
- Thread starter Dr Roly
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"Griefing" [definition not supplied] and other repetitive anti-social behaviour like pirating, requires more than the existing "do it, pay fine, do it, pay bounty, do it, pay fine" mechanic. Levels of outlawyness are needed, and the higher ones shouldn't clear immediately. Hit a system vessel and get "WANTED" and a 200Cr fine. Kill a system vessel or clean player and get "FUGITIVE" and a 50,000Cr Bounty. Paying off the huge bounty should still leave a criminal status, which clears over a period of time. Further crimes at this level should reset, or worsen the status. Whilst FUGITIVE, the player's insurance could be reduced for example, and even certain activities (missions? trading?) could be sanctioned. Basically, make bad people pay, the way they do in real life.
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Pirate.... Recognised role in the game, primary aim to steal goods off traders, but keep them alive for another day.
Griefer.... (subjective) someone who goes out of the way to spoil the game for someone, doing it in a way imo (hence subjective) which some how takes advantage of cracks in the game mechanics such that the "victim" cant really mitagate it, or making it your personal missions to pick 1 person and continually spoil their game.
(then my own personal take) Ganker/psychopath , imo not a griefer but equally someone who the game needs to deal with very harshly because for many people they offer nothing positive to the game world. Like psychopaths in real life, they will always exist, and that is to be expected, and imo (in a game) accepted, but they also need to be forced to "live" with their actions in the long term. Psychopath should not be the easiest path to get your jollies for lolz, they need to be treated Harshly by pretty much all camps really. In RL no one welcomes a psychopath into their neighbourhood and the same should be true in elite universe. it is here when the mechanics are currently failing.... there is no real downside for ganking, all of the risk is on the "clean" player who stands to lose so much, compared to the psycho who loses so little and it is for that reason right now that I have some sympathy for
players who network pull when mindlessly ganked. (I am not one of those people but I have now dropped to solo, and will continue to stay there whilst trading, until this is balanced somewhat)***
but either way, pirate =/= griefer =/= psychopath all 3 are very different imo.
*** in the mean time i think i will join mobius group if there is room
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Griefing is not a valid way to play and here is the reason why. If you get your kicks from actively ruining someone else's enjoyment then THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU IN YOUR HEAD. Seriously, go and seek help.
No. You don't take it far enough.
While I'm all for the pirate dynamic something does need to be done to prevent wanton murder. Ever player is a member of the "Pilots Federation" and it is through that organization that crimes should be punished. Bounties only go so far as to solving the problem. A serial player-killer needs to be marked as such. When I'm flying through a system and I see a player I should be able to to see exactly how many other Commanders this guy has taken down. That way I can very quickly decide, "do I really want to be here right now?" and run to safety... or if I'm a PVPer myself I might decide to take a shot.
Right now there are certain systems where, if I'm in my Type 6 and I see a player in anything that remotely lends itself to being a combat ship, I just leave. I can come back later.
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So... if someone enjoys PVP and they engage another player in combat and that player cuts his or her network connection to avoid the combat then they just griefed the PVPer. Right?
Bassically in an online game you can take two approaches: either provide a big range of "modes" so that the players can split into seperate universes/servers and only play with people who have an identical view of how they want to play, or play in a single gameworld whos mechanics allow the various sub-styles to cooexist without undue friction between them.
I believe ED is the first game ever that could realistically allow the latter because of the sheer size of the game world combined with the different grade of system government although it does probably require better law enforcement mechanics than we currently have. ED is also unique in that we the players get to make that choice since we decide whether to split up into private groups or play together in open.
So in order to achieve and sustain a big viberant and alive feeling universe which I think is what all of us (apart from hard core solo players obviously) want we as players have to have develop some degree of tolerance and respect for other people with different playing philosophies: have a willingness to at least occasionally have to "play someone elses way" rather than "play my way" and not be too quick to label actions outside what we personally view as appropriate as "griefing". If we can collective achive this then I think we all benefit from it in the long run.
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ingame lore according to DB, murdering pilots federation members is bad, therefore players who continually do this should be removed from the pilots federation, (with all the loss of privalages we get such as insurance etc)
on top of that imo, bounties for wanton destruction of clean players imo should be stuck to a CMDR for a set minimum amount of time, (both in game and real time so 2 criteria need to be met), and until both these criteria are met, then the player is a fugative even after death.... I would further suggest, a player with an open fugative status should not be able to wipe their account till it is settled.
if this sounds like I am being "unfair" to gankers, well so be it, it has been made clear from day 1, that outside of killing players for bounties, and outside of warzones, killing pilots federation members is NOT something which should be done lightly.
actually the OP did agree that maybe griefing was not the right term to use for the thread title and should have used Killer or Psychopath instead... had you actually read the OP and some of the thread you would have understood this was the actual type of gameplay the OP was refferring to...
I like how you oh so desperately try to get away from the Terminology because David Braben said something about a restricted group for griefers and you'll be damned if you only get to play your Space Quake vs other Space Quake players and don't get to force your play on people who don't.
How can someone be a murderer when it is not possible to be killed?
Fair enough. Playing the part of a psyco is perfectly acceptable. I stand by my comment but in light of the context of the thread, please ignore it.
The term "Griefer" is essentially someone who goes out to ruin anothers gameplay by repeated destructive behaviour against an individual (or group in certain circumstances)
Psychotic behaviour is essentially someone who goes out to cause as much mayhem and chaos to as many different people as possible... basically not picking on one person or group of people repeatedly...
DB has said in one of the dev talks that he supports psychotic behaviour as a style of gameplay but does not support 'griefing' as a valid style of gameplay... He acknowleges there are differences between the two and also has said that there are tools in the game that WE THE PLAYERS can use to help with avoiding 'griefers' and other players we may not wish to play with...
There is the blocking option, there is the option of solo or private groups and there will be coming wings... wings IMO are a double edged sword... they will allow people to band together wether that be traders, bounty hunters, pirates and psychopaths... it will also allow those 'griefers' to band together but when you think about it, a 'griefer' is by definition antisocial so true griefers most likely won't band together and then there are the other 'options' david mentioned in the talk about repeat 'griefers' being put predominantly in the same instance etc...
All the griefing with throw away ships is another reason why I'm not playing Elite anymore. Would be so bad if it didn't takes months grinding awful profit trade routes. FD are a joke, I'll not be purchasing any of their future games after this.
Tarnished my memories of the original Elite.
All these thread always end up on debating the Terminology of the G word,
But i am pretty sure most of us agree that the only problem is the game is not balanced around Psycho, and people call these player griefer since there is no efficient ingame mechanics implemented to make these players face the consequence of their behaviour :
Terminology :
A griefer is a player who deliberately irritates and harasses other players, often using aspects of gameplay in unintended ways by exploting buggy game mechanics, especially when it involves player killing, but is certainly not limited to just that. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance, since in-game penalties do not usually deter them.
Not sure if i can call an unbalanced mechanic "buggy", but the part about penalties is obvious.
I will be sad if there is no balance around this mechanic in the future and everybody can go psycho without risk and penalties, but even sader if there is no psycho at all in space, i hope one day we will be able to hunt really high bounty players.
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Griefing isn't the act of killing a defenseless player, it is the act of killing another player while using game mechanics as they were not intended to be used.
For instance, player Python X interdicts newbwinder B, player X blows up player B. This is NOT griefing.
Next instance, player Python X goes to Station Y, newbwinder B is also at Station Y after paying his insurance from previous death to Python X. Python X waits outside Station Y for newbwinder B to leave. Python X then destroyed newbwinder B again once get gets out of no fire range. This IS griefing.
For instance, player Python X interdicts newbwinder B, player X blows up player B. This is NOT griefing.
Next instance, player Python X goes to Station Y, newbwinder B is also at Station Y after paying his insurance from previous death to Python X. Python X waits outside Station Y for newbwinder B to leave. Python X then destroyed newbwinder B again once get gets out of no fire range. This IS griefing.
Don't be deliberately obtuse. This is not being griefed, it is part of the risk of playing in open.
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Then play in solo.
Personally i really dislike giving those who enjoy blowing-up human players any satisfaction at all, but this is a multiplayer game. I enjoy seeing the odd other player and solo mode doesn't have anything special for solo players, so what i have done is move myself away from systems where people congregate the most. You don't have to leave colonised space to be a lot safer, you may only have to jump less than 200 light years away. I have never even been interdicted, as most the players i do see are like me, just doing their own thing.
tldr: move away from high population areas
tldr: move away from high population areas
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