Griefing is a valid way to play

[Jaiotu]

A) What has that got to do with my comment?

B) Why are you asking me?

A. What does it have to do with your comment? You said "If you get your kicks from actively ruining someone else's enjoyment then THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU IN YOUR HEAD" and you applied that comment to "griefers". Combat loggers are actively ruining the enjoyment of PVPers. So I'm asking you to qualify your statement: Would you consider combat loggers to be griefers?

B. Why am I asking you? Because this is a forum and thats what you do in forums... you communicate with one another so I thought it was a fair question.

 

[benkei]

Quite agree, griefers are griefers. Perfectly legitimite way to play. And so is solo...

Right to the point when Open is dead empty except for the griefers who then come to the forum to complain about griefers and why everyone is a sissy playing Solo.
Makes sense. -.-

 

[kelticfury]

Personally i really dislike giving those enjoy who enjoy blowing-up human players any satisfaction at all, but this is a multiplayer game. I enjoy seeing the odd other player and solo mode doesn't have anything special for solo players, so what i have done is move myself away from systems where people congregate the most. You don't have to leave colonised space to be a lot safer, you may only have to jump less than 200 light years away. I have never even been interdicted, as most the players i do see are like me, just doing their own thing.

tldr: move away from high population areas

+rep for the post and for that epic sig

 

[Eleonore Nali]

For instance, player Python X interdicts newbwinder B, player X blows up player B. This is NOT griefing.

Don't kid yourself. There is no reason for player X to be doing this other than enjoying player B's misfortune. Hence it is by definition griefing.
You can artificially try to shoehorn the term "griefing" to only apply to repeated harassment of a single player (i.e. excessive griefing), but that is equally silly as trying to make the term apply to every single player kill.

It's the motivation that counts. If you have a valid RP reason (bounty-hunting, pirating, wrong-faction-allegiance of the other guy...) then that's not griefing. If all you want to accomplish is spoil the other guy's fun, then you are griefing, regardless of whether you kill him 1, 2 or 500000000 times. I don't judge playing that way, have even done my fair share of this playstyle myself in various games. But pretty please with sugar on top at least have the guts to admit to what you are doing, jeez.

Regarding the "roleplaying a psychotic killer" argument: Yeah, there is indeed not much to say against that. Except that of course for 99% of the players in question it is just a lame excuse. "My dog ate my homework". Yes, I do in fact feel bad for the one odd child whose homework was actually eaten by a dog. But taking that as a reason to assume that every child without homework always tells the truth would be stupid.

 

[TriumphANT]

No. You don't take it far enough.
While I'm all for the pirate dynamic something does need to be done to prevent wanton murder. Ever player is a member of the "Pilots Federation" and it is through that organization that crimes should be punished. Bounties only go so far as to solving the problem. A serial player-killer needs to be marked as such. When I'm flying through a system and I see a player I should be able to to see exactly how many other Commanders this guy has taken down.

Yup, we're aligned on this then. As well as a more persistent criminal status for repetitive crimes, let's say:
OFFENDER: Did something silly/illegal once, like smuggling a few T of scooped Stolen goods or hitting a Clean/System Vessel once or twice without causing damage. Status can be cleared to CLEAN by paying a small fine.
WANTED: Player has repeatedly infringed on laws, but not up to murder. Low level piracy (e.g. shooting at Clean targets, taking out their shields/causing some damage, selling lots of Stolen stuff.) Attracts a larger fine and small bounty. Insurance is reduced to 85%. Clearing fine still leaves bounty and WANTED status for a given time, after which status reverts to CLEAN.
FUGITIVE: Player has commited murder, or repeatedly damaged Clean targets to below a certain hull threshold. Fine and bounty increase appropriately, and player is sanctioned in certain territories. Paying fine is only possible in places that'll allow them to dock, and bounty/FUGITIVE status are persistent for a longer time. After this, bounty reduces to WANTED for that length of time, then clears to Clean. Insurance is reduced to 50% whilst FUGITIVE.
Finally, the KWS will show a criminal record for WANTED/FUGITIVE including their number of illegal kills, perhaps splitting them into Federation/Imperial status too, as well as any smuggling/damage below death caused by the player.
That way the bounty hunters can band together and wallop the griefer/hardcore pirates, and ignore the smugglers and lowlevel pirates if they choose.
Sounds like a decent initial framework for a mechanic which will allow psychopathic behaviour, but make it much, much harder to do it without risk of rebuke.

 

[Jukelo]

None of the things you listed in the OP count as griefing.
Griefing is not a valid way of playing, but blowing up people's ship for the sake of it isn't griefing. Unless you're systematically targetting the same player over and over again for no apparent reason.

 

[Iskariot]

Griefing is a valid way to play

I do not consider griefing a 'way to play' at all.
It is a mentality and a despicable immoral one at that. It is deviant behavior.
In gaming the consequences of griefing in general are not that serious. In real life comparable deviant behavior can seriously scar people. It can destroy lives.

 

[Tistuto]

None of the things you listed in the OP count as griefing.
Griefing is not a valid way of playing, but blowing up people's ship for the sake of it isn't griefing. Unless you're systematically targetting the same player over and over again for no apparent reason.

Terminology :
A griefer is a player who deliberately irritates and harasses other players, often using aspects of gameplay in unintended ways by exploting buggy game mechanics, especially when it involves player killing, but is certainly not limited to just that. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance, since in-game penalties do not usually deter them.

So i recon you find the in-game penalties appropriate/accurate and you really think it Deter some player?

 

[Joe Spivey]

A. What does it have to do with your comment? You said "If you get your kicks from actively ruining someone else's enjoyment then THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU IN YOUR HEAD" and you applied that comment to "griefers". Combat loggers are actively ruining the enjoyment of PVPers. So I'm asking you to qualify your statement: Would you consider combat loggers to be griefers?

B. Why am I asking you? Because this is a forum and thats what you do in forums... you communicate with one another so I thought it was a fair question.

Ok, let me be more specific. What does my opinion on what constitutes a griefer in ED have to do with my general comment that anyone who gleans pleasure from destroying someone's enjoyment in a pastime (a griefer) is lacking something in their personality?

I asked why you are asking me this earlier question because I cannot see the relationship of your question to my comment. But to answer it anyway. I have no opinion on what constitutes a griefer in ED. The term is entirely subjective and heavily dependent on the situation at the time and the intent of the parties involved. You are actually asking me to decide the intent of the 'combat logger' which is something I cannot know.

Anyway, my original comment is irrelevant to the nature of the thread as the OP has stated that his use of the term 'griefer' in the title was perhaps not correct.

 

[excalibus]

Don't kid yourself. There is no reason for player X to be doing this other than enjoying player B's misfortune. Hence it is by definition griefing.
You can artificially try to shoehorn the term "griefing" to only apply to repeated harassment of a single player (i.e. excessive griefing), but that is equally silly as trying to make the term apply to every single player kill.

It's the motivation that counts. If you have a valid RP reason (bounty-hunting, pirating, wrong-faction-allegiance of the other guy...) then that's not griefing. If all you want to accomplish is spoil the other guy's fun, then you are griefing, regardless of whether you kill him 1, 2 or 500000000 times. I don't judge playing that way, have even done my fair share of this playstyle myself in various games. But pretty please with sugar on top at least have the guts to admit to what you are doing, jeez.

Regarding the "roleplaying a psychotic killer" argument: Yeah, there is indeed not much to say against that. Except that of course for 99% of the players in question it is just a lame excuse. "My dog ate my homework". Yes, I do in fact feel bad for the one odd child whose homework was actually eaten by a dog. But taking that as a reason to assume that every child without homework always tells the truth would be stupid.

single kills happen all the time in most online games... that is part of the gameplay and has been part of online gaming for many years... If a random player interdicts me and kills me, that (to me) is not griefing, if said player then sits outside my spawn station and kills me every time I try to depart... that would be causing me grief...

The mindset of psycopathic behaviour is IMO not so much to cause any particular individual grief but to cause as much mayhem and chaos as is possible to as may people as possible...

If a psychopath becomes a stalker and keeps targetting the same person or people then they become a griefer...

So many people cry griefer for what is essentially a random killing from what I am seeing here on the forums...

If I engage in combat with someone RP'ing as a psychopath and they kill me and then I go back and have another go at them then that is also not being griefed as I am actively seeking them out for a PVP experience

Personally I don't get into the whole PVP playstyle a lot, but I do enjoy being able to when the mood takes me...

and I only play in open and never play in solo so I can have interactions with other commanders, wether that be in the form of combat, just shootin' the breeze or whatever, I look forward to when FD develop the MP experience further by hopefully adding the abilities for players to post assassination and bounty missions on other players, for groups of player to perhaps go 'explore' unknown systems which might contain a variety of NPC challenges for player groups etc...

 

[Jukelo]

Terminology :
A griefer is a player who deliberately irritates and harasses other players, often using aspects of gameplay in unintended ways by exploting buggy game mechanics, especially when it involves player killing, but is certainly not limited to just that. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance, since in-game penalties do not usually deter them.

So i recon you find the in-game penalties appropriate/accurate and you really think it Deter some player?

I didn't even mention whether or not I thought there was any griefing in the game and whether or not I think the ingame penalties were enough to deter it. So I dont know why you'd try to put words in my mouth in this manner.
But I'll stil lanswer your question: I haven't seen any griefing yet, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly griefing is possible in ED considering how easy it is to avoid player to player interactions, using in-game options (the FSD mechanics are currently very much in favor of they prey that can just submit and immediatly FSD Out) or using metagame choices (ability to almost seamlessly switch to solo and back in open again, blocking players, killing the game client..).
So until we see some hard numbers related to griefing, nobody can really make a comment about whether the current penalties are enough to deter griefing or not, and anybody claiming otherwise probably has a personal agenda.

 

[Jaiotu]

Don't kid yourself. There is no reason for player X to be doing this other than enjoying player B's misfortune. Hence it is by definition griefing.
You can artificially try to shoehorn the term "griefing" to only apply to repeated harassment of a single player (i.e. excessive griefing), but that is equally silly as trying to make the term apply to every single player kill.

It's the motivation that counts. If you have a valid RP reason (bounty-hunting, pirating, wrong-faction-allegiance of the other guy...) then that's not griefing. If all you want to accomplish is spoil the other guy's fun, then you are griefing, regardless of whether you kill him 1, 2 or 500000000 times. I don't judge playing that way, have even done my fair share of this playstyle myself in various games. But pretty please with sugar on top at least have the guts to admit to what you are doing, jeez.

Regarding the "roleplaying a psychotic killer" argument: Yeah, there is indeed not much to say against that. Except that of course for 99% of the players in question it is just a lame excuse. "My dog ate my homework". Yes, I do in fact feel bad for the one odd child whose homework was actually eaten by a dog. But taking that as a reason to assume that every child without homework always tells the truth would be stupid.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone playing the game is roleplaying. Elite: Dangerous isn't marketed as a roleplaying game... it's a simulator. There are a lot of players who are not roleplaying and therefore could care less about formulating a rational in-game reason for doing what they are doing. They just see a player and think, "I wonder if I can kill him." And open fire. Annoying? Yes. Griefing? Well... maybe. Your statement that "its the motivation that counts" is unhelpful... because you can't really know what the motivation of the the alleged "griefer" actually is.

Roleplaying a psychotic killer? Not that hard to believe. Just fly to Hutton Orbital. Many a pilot has gone that way only to return mad... MAD I SAY!

 

[Cathalo]

Don't kid yourself. There is no reason for player X to be doing this other than enjoying player B's misfortune. Hence it is by definition griefing.
You can artificially try to shoehorn the term "griefing" to only apply to repeated harassment of a single player (i.e. excessive griefing), but that is equally silly as trying to make the term apply to every single player kill.

It's the motivation that counts. If you have a valid RP reason (bounty-hunting, pirating, wrong-faction-allegiance of the other guy...) then that's not griefing. If all you want to accomplish is spoil the other guy's fun, then you are griefing, regardless of whether you kill him 1, 2 or 500000000 times. I don't judge playing that way, have even done my fair share of this playstyle myself in various games. But pretty please with sugar on top at least have the guts to admit to what you are doing, jeez.

Regarding the "roleplaying a psychotic killer" argument: Yeah, there is indeed not much to say against that. Except that of course for 99% of the players in question it is just a lame excuse. "My dog ate my homework". Yes, I do in fact feel bad for the one odd child whose homework was actually eaten by a dog. But taking that as a reason to assume that every child without homework always tells the truth would be stupid.

Your problem is that you're using terms that apply to the real world such as "My dog ate my homework". ED is a game, not the real world. What we do in this game will never matter, even if I amass 100 billion credits in this game it is still all 1's and 0's in the virtual world and means nothing, sort of like being plugged into the matrix except for the fact that if we die NOTHING HAPPENS to us. We are playing the matrix, my friend. It is a virtual world, it is a game, it is all MAKE BELIEVE. Nothing you or I ever accomplish in this game will ever matter, we will never get to keep our credits (even if credits as a monetary function really existed) and we will never keep our ships or even our friends that we meet while playing the game. All of this disappears if FD decides to shut the game down tomorrow morning.
When playing a game you need to understand that games are meant to be played for fun. If you aren't having fun then leave. But by all means do not consider any game to be a virtual extension of your real life, because when you do that you have truly lost sight of what playing games is really about. TO HAVE FUN!
If I were a noob flying a noobwinder and I got destroyed by a guy who was flying a billion dollar ship I wouldn't feel as though I were being griefed. I would laugh and take whatever learning lessons I could from the experience because to the newb, losing a sidewinder is basically the equivalent of losing NOTHING! His playtime is not effected by it at all except for the possible 4 containers of clothing he lost which should take him many days to replace, ami right?

 

[Herik]

Of course griefing is a valid, (although preferred otherwise,) way to play; It's also valid the large ranks of Solo/group players will rise exponentially...Expect it; the game is Co-op, pure and simple.

 

[Cathalo]

Of course it's a valid way to play; It's also valid the large ranks of Solo/group players will rise exponentially...Expect it; the game is Co-op, pure and simple.

And despite that, we have plenty of posters making "Goodbye" threads regardless of the fact that there is a solo mode available. Yet they still choose to play in the harsher environment of open play. Human psychology is interesting, as a business owner I hope that someday I will have a better understanding so I can increase profits.

 

[xondk]

Griefing is 'valid' yeah, it is in all online games with any sort of pvp.

But just because you can do something, does it mean you should?
The difference being that IRL there are comparatively bigger consequences, if you are flying a relatively cheap ship, there isn't really currently in Elite.

Personally I wouldn't mind a pvp rating system, nothing big, just a simple quick indicator of the persons pvp behavior, title different icon or such perhaps? that way at least you know when you are in a system with a 'known' aggressive player, should the npc's or such go after that person also?...maybe though personally I would like that to rather be tied into the reputation system, so that if a non allied player, attacks someone that is allied to a system faction's police forces, that are nearby, they will come to defend you, (this sort of happens already?)

Now I know any pvp rep system might not be popular because, well people don't want consequences on their griefing, there are plenty of games out there where this can be seen when changes arrive.
And while you can argue that a game should be 'fun' and those that find griefing fun shouldnt be blocked from doing it, in this case. Elite Dangerous is a simulator, which includes simulation of consequences for your actions.

That said, I don't think anything more direct then above should be added, (like instant arriving police when non are nearby) or such, but there should be some sort of indicator in my opinion, and police should defend their allies from attacking players.

 

[Quineloe]

There is the blocking option, there is the option of solo or private groups and there will be coming wings... wings IMO are a double edged sword... they will allow people to band together wether that be traders, bounty hunters, pirates and psychopaths... it will also allow those 'griefers' to band together but when you think about it, a 'griefer' is by definition antisocial so true griefers most likely won't band together and then there are the other 'options' david mentioned in the talk about repeat 'griefers' being put predominantly in the same instance etc...

Oh is this your first online game?

Griefers are perfectly capable of banding together in order to cause more grief.

And I don't know how often it needs to be stated by the Devs themselves, but you can't block people from shooting you.

 

[excalibus]

Oh is this your first online game?

Griefers are perfectly capable of banding together in order to cause more grief.

And I don't know how often it needs to be stated by the Devs themselves, but you can't block people from shooting you.

Ummm you have absolutely no idea of how long I have been playing online games... lets just say it goes back to the days of MUD's and pre 'internet'

As for blocking... you can block people and that reduces the chances of them being in your instance in match making but yes it is not completely perfected and the devs have acknowledged that there are some quite specific 'flaws' in that aspect of the system where you can still be matched with someone you have blocked...

Yes they can band together, I did not say they could not... what I said was that the chances of pure griefers AKA totally antisocial psychopaths that want to cause the maximum harm to a particular individual or group of players repeatedly would be less likely to form groups as part of their antisocial makeup but of course that does not mean they won't... just a lower likelyhood...

 

[xondk]

Ummm you have absolutely no idea of how long I have been playing online games... lets just say it goes back to the days of MUD's and pre 'internet'

As for blocking... you can block people and that reduces the chances of them being in your instance in match making but yes it is not completely perfected and the devs have acknowledged that there are some quite specific 'flaws' in that aspect of the system where you can still be matched with someone you have blocked...

Yes they can band together, I did not say they could not... what I said was that the chances of pure griefers AKA totally antisocial psychopaths that want to cause the maximum harm to a particular individual or group of players repeatedly would be less likely to form groups as part of their antisocial makeup but of course that does not mean they won't... just a lower likelyhood...

Fellow mud player, yay!

Anyhow, there seems to be two kinds of griefers in my experience.
"Lol nub I kilz yuz!" - Aka, those that do it for 'fun' and enjoy causing others harm.
"This is my place get out!" - Those that do play and enjoy the game for what it is, but have set a goal they want and are ruthless about it.

The "for the lolz" griefers, rarely form any kind of coherent groups in my experience, but just jump around doing random stuff.
The ruthless griefers, they do form groups, but they are focused on their goal, get anywhere they don't want you to be, and you are dead, even if you didn't know about it, but they do not go out of their way to jump around randomly and kill random people outside their goal.

To a point the ruthless kind aren't 'real' griefers in my mind, but they qualify because of how it can affect players, but they can actually be a great experience for the game as well.
The lolz ones though, that is the ones that need go get kicked down, if they behaved like that irl then they would quite likely be beat up.

 

[DarkWalker]

You are aware that threads with titles like "Griefing is a valid way to play" are a strong incentive for players to leave open and play instead in solo or group, yes?