Grind - can we solve the problem?

[Jex =TE=]

IMO part of the problem is the lack of scenery in this game. Games like Euro and American Truck Simulator have you driving from location to location but with nice scenery to enjoy. In ED it's black space with a monochrome holographic projection over everything, with tiny stars and tinier planets until you get close to them, so flying from station to station doesn't give you much to see during the trip.

This so much - there is literally nothing worth looking at as you fly from star to station. There's literally nothing in space at all.

No dustclouds
no asteroids
no comets
no debris
no hulks
and the rest of the stuff is just repetition - same planet textures, same space stations (with the same rust)

and then when you get to a space station, literally nothing there. Just the station - why not at least use the CQC assests on some and put some stuff outside the stations as well?

Nothing in this game has any meaning either - go and kill an AI that'll spawn just for you to kill and you'll get credits. Go scan some AI that'll spawn just for you because why? Oh, credits!

 

[Jex =TE=]

The problem is not the grind. The problem are the players consciously keeping at it when things start to feel like a grind. There are gazzilion of things to do in Elite. Gathering mats on planets feels grindy? Switch to missions. Missions feel grindy? Go exploring. That boring now? Go back, find a Combat Zone and have at it. Feels grindy? Go to the nearest planet and start collecting materials.

There problem solved.

/thread

how about making a game that is fun to play rather than a game where you can't stand doing something for long anymore you move onto another thing you can't stand doing for long.

 

[crushdepth]

how about making a game that is fun to play rather than a game where you can't stand doing something for long anymore you move onto another thing you can't stand doing for long.

HERESY!

 

[Jex =TE=]

I still think the jumponium needs to change to something more interesting than:

line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait.

Long journeys can be extremely repetitive....

Take a trip to Colonia for example:

Set course...

Spoiler

line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait, steer around sun, line up, J, wait....

arrive at destination - Yay!

But I do caveat that with, put a movie on 2nd screen, get out that old MP3 collection, have dinner whilst doing it...... Don't just sit there starring at a screen lining up, pushing J, waiting some more, steering around the sun to then line up and go forth with J again. Give yourself a mental break by getting the old scanners out and getting yourself some exploration data on the way can break up the repetition.

Alas if you want to get to somewhere like Colonia, then this is pretty much the only way to do it.

I'd love other travel mechanics, sure, less jumponium, more interactivity. Perhaps realtime control with a more classic 'star trek' style warp where mapping and fuel dictates what direction you head, and how far you dare to go before stranding yourself in the middle of nowhere with no fuel.... it would make interesting 2 player navigation / piloting something.. etc... seen many many suggestions on the forums that sound great

TLDR; travelling long distances can be the biggest grind there is... Engineers can reduce the repetition by half Not engineering your long distance ship is pure madness lol.

And that is literally all there is to space travel in this game - literally no deviation from that spoiler lol and nothing out there to find.

 

[Stigbob]

how about making a game that is fun to play rather than a game where you can't stand doing something for long anymore you move onto another thing you can't stand doing for long.

Don't do the things you can't stand. Look for alternatives, if that's grinding then there's your answer.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I feel like this thread is digressing, as they tend to, away from the original aim of brainstorming ideas that can reduce the grind/manifest it in more creative and enjoyable gameplay loops. This is why nothing ever progresses on this forum. No matter how specific you make the OP and how much you ask people to refrain from making the same stock responses there are still those that have to do it. There's no value in one person saying the grind is great and another saying it's horrendous. My intention was to accept the opposing views and establish whether there could be a compromise that would suit both sides of the grind divide.

It's always the same negative people too that do it. They can't keep quiet and have to defend the game, usually with bad arguments as well.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's always the same negative people too that do it. They can't keep quiet and have to defend the game, usually with bad arguments as well.

And then you also get the same negative people that just attack the game and don't do what the OP has asked and give some examples of how to make the game better.

I have given some ideas on this thread without having to attack the game or the Devs. Have you yet?

 

[Jex =TE=]

If you're casually bumbling around without caring what specific upgrades or even which modules you get materials for, and you're happy with the occasional g3 mod and maybe only have half a dozen out of twenty engineers unlocked in the last 2 years, then yeah, I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on that point, Chris.

This posts points out, effectively, that some people think playing the game for 3 years and only owning a handful of ships with nothing g5'd and doing the same, boring "missions" is what makes this game excellent and they can have fun with it - which is fine. 90% of the people that bought the game left it after a few weeks playing it - 90% of kickstarters who played the original Elite left the game and yet it can't be improved, we just need to stop the grinding.

Well a lot of us didn't grind to begin with and stopped playing the boring missions then found there wasn't any fun ones and stopped playing.

It's the other people, newbies and clueless gamers who simply googled up the way to ritches and then get surprised (and ultimately frustrated) by the grind, whom I see moaning here.

When you make up facts to support your own position all it does is undermine your credibility.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I'm not complaining about the grind, I'm calling bull manure on those who claim it isn't there. Prior to 3.0 I have them all unlocked with somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 g5 rolls, and that's not even a pale shadow of what truly dedicated players have accomplished. There is absolutely a grindwall, even if it has been improved. You wouldn't know because you have barely attempted to explore it, which is not something I would criticize you for, but I will absolutely call you out as being stuck in your own extremely narrow, uneducated viewpoint as its you and players of a similar lack of accomplishment who are the first and quickest to tell everybody else how they should play, or what should constitute enjoyment.

ran out of rep for ya lol

 

[Urbanski101]

I've solved the problem with grind, it's really simple and elegant and also clearly expresses my feelings towards the current state of the game.

I've stopped playing.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

Hey OP. Nice try but this is the internet. Here we do not try to understand each others point of view. Corner time for the human race .

Here's a solution for you though

You're not going to like it...

Spoiler

You're really not going to like it...

Spoiler

Ok you asked for it....

Spoiler

Get rid of multiplayer!

Tee Hee!

I know it won't happen but it is clear this fantasy genre wizard quest mechanic was introduced to address the issue that the game has such a huge wealth gap. Instead of addressing this financial issue with financial tools, for example taxation, they gave us time sinks.

No multiplayer... no issue

 

[Bortas]

I've stopped playing.

Always wondering why people are reading (and posting in) forums about games they don't even play.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

Always wondering why people are reading (and posting in) forums about games they don't even play.

I play a little but I come to see how things are going. Looking forward to Q4.

 

[M00ka]

Always wondering why people are reading (and posting in) forums about games they don't even play.

I think a lot do play, they seem to know exactly what is going on inside the game (including how every new bug or exploit works). They are just saying they don't play because they think it makes them martyrs or something.

 

[Jex =TE=]

It's also kind of wrong. If FDEV's intent was to "stop people from doing it" they could QUITE LITERALLY stop people from doing it. They OBVIOUSLY want people to do it because they purposely put it in the game.

They want people doing it but they want you to do it over 10 years - not to grind it! Just do the same missions for 10 years and let it "naturally" happen.

If by the way, you have a job, kids, social life and all that, then you'll have to play for 3 decades to acheive the same goals.

 

[crushdepth]

Always wondering why people are reading (and posting in) forums about games they don't even play.

Well where else are they going to get news on what's going on? GALNET??!?

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

I am not trying to pretend there isn't a grind. All I do is that I'm trying to convince people who aren't hardcore PvPers (which is 99% of us) that they don't have to grind if they don't want to

That's not true though. I understand there are various improvements for explorers, such as different scanners and improvements to repair mechanics etc. I can't buy them, I must go to the wizards if i want them.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Don't do the things you can't stand. Look for alternatives, if that's grinding then there's your answer.

I'm still waiting for engaging gameplay to be added that priovides

- Fun
- reason
- challenge
- some complexity
- Skill

You can argue there is "fun" to be had - the others are lacking except maybe for PVP.

 

[Jex =TE=]

And then you also get the same negative people that just attack the game and don't do what the OP has asked and give some examples of how to make the game better.

I have given some ideas on this thread without having to attack the game or the Devs. Have you yet?

Well I knew if I looked back I'd have to quote you again and your first post in this thread was this constructive gem...

People can't help themselves. Even if there were a plethora of different ways to get something, loads of variation, great and deep gameplay, people will still grind out the easiest and fastest method to get something and then complain about the grind after they have done so.

There is nothing that can be done for these people.

On the other hand, I've just read the last 17 pages or so and found the usual nonsense and off topic arguemnts from people that have played the game for 4 years and acheived nothing, hardly touched a lot of the game mechanics and yet feel authorised to give an opinion on something they've never engaged in. Can you explain that?

 

[Jex =TE=]

I think a lot do play, they seem to know exactly what is going on inside the game (including how every new bug or exploit works). They are just saying they don't play because they think it makes them martyrs or something.

I haven't played the game for at least 1.5 years and don't even own Horizons. Now how on earth could I know so much about the game?