Grind - can we solve the problem?

[Stigbob]

The solution to that is to keep track of the USSs (and other RNG stuff) such that logging doesn't help. That is, you can log all you want, but you always see the same stuff each time. Eventually, players would figure out that logging doesn't help and will stop doing it.

That would solve the immersion break, due to repetitive logging, but would guarantee even more salty tears in the forum.

That's a good idea. Not the same stuff as in another batch of what you already got, the same stuff as in you already picked it up and there's nothing there anymore. Mats that respawn once per day or something, that would prevent location grinding.

Reducing the opportunities for grind might actually reduce the flow of tears.

 

[govny]

Most of the time it's because they come here trying to give the devs feedback.

do you really think that FD (or any other developer) listen to forum users feedback?
If they did, they should make anything and its opposite.

 

[fsdraconis]

simple!
if you don't like grinding, don't do it.

This is a reply that is often given that literally means nothing. The problem you are trying to evade with this sort of an answer is that you personally don't think "grind" in the game is ever worth doing. But, just because you are not working at it. Does not change the level of work associated with a task.

Sure, you could choose to fill a pool up all in one go and it will take time. Or, you could choose to fill it up a bucket a day. The grind, is still there. You just chose not to get it done in the shortest time possible and chose instead not to pay attention to how long it takes before you can swim in your effort.

Literally, saying "Don't do it" is about as rude and ignorant an answer possible. Because it shows you don't care about that player's time, effort, or interest. It is their opinion to not like it. But no matter how your take is on the way to do it. The end result is you still have to fill that pool to swim in it.

 

[fsdraconis]

Screw material collection with the SRV. I spent most of my time during 2.0 planetside.

Did I ever find plutonium? No.
Did I ever find arsenic? No. I could continue the list.

Now, why did I do it, then. There was no real purpose to it, but it was fun and the scanner mechanic was really a good idea. I also liked to raid bases, so that was what I mainly did.

They could have easily expanded on that gameplay but no - it had to be that cursed engineer stuff that completely overshadows the rest of the game. It sucked the life out of the whole thing and left back an empty husk of power creep. People might have gone planetside for the fun of it, but now it's just to find some sweet juice to fuel OP power fantasies.

Another person stating "power creep" in a humanity based future sci fi sim. Welcome to reality. Power creep has been happening all the time. It is literally historically accurate. sticks and stones to tactical nuclear weapons. We are now at war with Thargoids. We are learning tech from the Guardians.

If you can't accept power creep maybe you should just go play mine sweeper? That game has no power creep.

 

[Stigbob]

Nah, The insults will continue as long as you're doing the same. And I will play what I want, when I want.

I haven't insulted you.

You however lacking the wit to formulate arguments will continue slinging insults until you either get banned/infracted or the mods close the thread. Then you'll probably complain about that.

 

[Frenotx]

Another person stating "power creep" in a humanity based future sci fi sim. Welcome to reality. Power creep has been happening all the time. It is literally historically accurate. sticks and stones to tactical nuclear weapons. We are now at war with Thargoids. We are learning tech from the Guardians.

If you can't accept power creep maybe you should just go play mine sweeper? That game has no power creep.

Massive power creep is often quite bad for the health of multiplayer games. Consider the enormous disadvantage a new player is at compared to a more seasoned player- they already have the major disadvantage of less experience, and now the seasoned player has the further advantage of 75%+ more firepower, and 100%+ more health- and that's assuming they have the same exact load out and ship!

 

[Turbosnowy]

So my 2 pennies.

I think Sandro and FD have a view of how you are supposed to play Elite, especially around Engineers which as someone before me has said now seems to overshadow the rest of the game - for many it has now become 'the game' which is an issue in itself - Sandro has said on Livestreams that the intention is for players to organically upgrade ships by pootling about doing other stuff - by this I take it to mean the vision is that you just do stuff and eventually you wander to an engineer possibly accidentally and see what if anything you can upgrade 'Ooh I have enough mats for a couple upgrades on a gun, sweet!' type thing.

The issue with this vision as I see it, is that it suits some players who like to play that way, but for others who perhaps are 'goal oriented' this just doesn't work very well. They may have a goal to get a ship maxed, so they need to go to 3rd party sites and find out what they need, hang around till their eyes bleed waiting for USSs to spawn or to find metallic meteorites on planets that cough up what they need, or scan scan scan all day long in supercruise in order to meet the material/data quota before they even set off to see an engineer and get the upgrades done. For this group (in which I include myself) the grind, the RNG, the tedium of it can be pretty bad, and this is why I think we see so many threads on the same issue.

Basically the game designers have a vision of how you should be playing the game, and many of us (including myself) according to that vision are just doing it wrong.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Frenotx]

So my 2 pennies.

I think Sandro and FD have a view of how you are supposed to play Elite, especially around Engineers which as someone before me has said now seems to overshadow the rest of the game - for many it has now become 'the game' which is an issue in itself - Sandro has said on Livestreams that the intention is for players to organically upgrade ships by pootling about doing other stuff - by this I take it to mean the vision is that you just do stuff and eventually you wander to an engineer possibly accidentally and see what if anything you can upgrade 'Ooh I have enough mats for a couple upgrades on a gun, sweet!' type thing.

The issue with this vision as I see it, is that it suits some players who like to play that way, but for others who perhaps are 'goal oriented' this just doesn't work very well. They may have a goal to get a ship maxed, so they need to go to 3rd party sites and find out what they need, hang around till their eyes bleed waiting for USSs to spawn or to find metallic meteorites on planets that cough up what they need, or scan scan scan all day long in supercruise in order to meet the material/data quota before they even set off to see an engineer and get the upgrades done. For this group (in which I include myself) the grind, the RNG, the tedium of it can be pretty bad, and this is why I think we see so many threads on the same issue.

Basically the game designers have a vision of how you should be playing the game, and many of us (including myself) according to that vision are just doing it wrong.

Just my thoughts.

It's also difficult to justify just engineering as you go when the difference it makes is so huge. If someone said, "Hey. I can strap an additional huge and small hardpoint on your FDL", you'd probably be in a hurry to do so. Guess what- that's roughly the equivalent firepower increase possible.

If engineering was more about tweaking / sidegrading to specialize your ship to your style, organic engineering would make way more sense. Since its instead about ENORMOUS amounts of upgrade, well, we have what we have.

 

[jasonbarron]

It's also difficult to justify just engineering as you go when the difference it makes is so huge. If someone said, "Hey. I can strap an additional huge and small hardpoint on your FDL", you'd probably be in a hurry to do so. Guess what- that's roughly the equivalent firepower increase possible.

If engineering was more about tweaking / sidegrading to specialize your ship to your style, organic engineering would make way more sense. Since its instead about ENORMOUS amounts of upgrade, well, we have what we have.

Don't even get me started on how easy it is for everybody to apply a darn near perma 30% boost to their ammo.

 

[Stigbob]

This is a reply that is often given that literally means nothing. The problem you are trying to evade with this sort of an answer is that you personally don't think "grind" in the game is ever worth doing. But, just because you are not working at it. Does not change the level of work associated with a task.

Sure, you could choose to fill a pool up all in one go and it will take time. Or, you could choose to fill it up a bucket a day. The grind, is still there. You just chose not to get it done in the shortest time possible and chose instead not to pay attention to how long it takes before you can swim in your effort.

Literally, saying "Don't do it" is about as rude and ignorant an answer possible. Because it shows you don't care about that player's time, effort, or interest. It is their opinion to not like it. But no matter how your take is on the way to do it. The end result is you still have to fill that pool to swim in it.

You misunderstand it to be honest, the thing that's evaded by that approach is the grind itself. Grind means repeating the same task over and over, until it gets boring (or that's how I see it). If it's broken up for example by dropping into any and all signal sources rather than just waiting for HGE, it doesn't get repetitive because the player isn't performing a very limited set of the same repetitive actions or even just staring at the screen. So grind doesn't occur at all even though you fill the swimming pool up a little bit.

It's not rude or ignorant, it's well meant advice that actually works.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I know what you mean, but people don't complain about the grind so much when it comes to The Witcher, Dark Souls, or even flippin Minecraft.. There is an objective understanding of what grind is, from a game designers point of view, and this game has heaps of it. Objectively.

Spoiler

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Bric...g_in_Games.php

A Design Definition of Grinding

For a game designer, grinding can be defined as a part of the game that has both:

Incredibly strong Long Term Incentive to keep the player going forward
Base Mechanics and Punishment and Reward Systems that have already been mastered by the player

In a grind, the player wants to keep going. This is probably because they have already put a substantial amount of effort into the game, and they would like to see it through to the end. If a player has been planting veggies in FarmVille for weeks, and they are very close to being able to afford the barn, then they will be compelled to continue in order to make their previous effort worthwhile. This is an incredibly strong Long Term Incentive; a reward that will come to them in the future in exchange for action in the present.

But a powerful Long Term Incentive on its own doesn’t make it a grind. In addition the player must be performing the same actions over and over, actions that they have already mastered. Walking down a short hallway and opening a single door to find your friend isn’t a grind. Walking down the hallway for 30 minutes and then opening no less than 10 doors is a grind, because you will have already masted the activity long before you complete the challenge.

The new guardian blue prints are a great example of this. Took me about 5 or so hours to kit out the ship, get over there, collect enough mats, work out the puzzle and get a blue print. It was fun, challenging, atmospheric. But they can't stop there, this is elite. I have to do it another 7 times, for one weapon. Hours tacked on, that were not challenging, interesting.. or even atmospheric anymore. Just repetitive, walking down a hall way, repeatedly opening doors, to finally unlock the goal.

It is a problem, that could be mitigated, but certainly won't be if we pretend it's not even a problem at all.

This - in spades.

I don't even have to give the definition of grind as its already there - what else is there to add? Nothing so err...... *walks off*

 

[Maka Gucci]

It's also difficult to justify just engineering as you go when the difference it makes is so huge. If someone said, "Hey. I can strap an additional huge and small hardpoint on your FDL", you'd probably be in a hurry to do so. Guess what- that's roughly the equivalent firepower increase possible.

If engineering was more about tweaking / sidegrading to specialize your ship to your style, organic engineering would make way more sense. Since its instead about ENORMOUS amounts of upgrade, well, we have what we have.

Throw into that no match making. It's one thing in a game with a large player base and match making mechanics, where you'll only be coming across people of similar skill or upgrade level. But in an Open, Online world, where a harmless Sidewinder can be interdicted by a fully engineered, elite Corvette, it's even harder to justify.

That's why I think the discrepancy between players should really be skill based, instead of time sink based. I'm happy for people to have access to things in a reasonable amount of play time cus they still have to learn to use em.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Throw into that no match making. It's one thing in a game with a large player base and match making mechanics, where you'll only be coming across people of similar skill or upgrade level. But in an Open, Online world, where a harmless Sidewinder can be interdicted by a fully engineered, elite Corvette, it's even harder to justify.

That's why I think the discrepancy between players should really be skill based, instead of time sink based. I'm happy for people to have access to things in a reasonable amount of play time cus they still have to learn to use em.

You're batting 2 for 2 so far mate

We and the DDF asked for skill based play in alpha, repeatedly - I guess they didn't notice.

 

[jasonbarron]

You misunderstand it to be honest, the thing that's evaded by that approach is the grind itself. Grind means repeating the same task over and over, until it gets boring (or that's how I see it). If it's broken up for example by dropping into any and all signal sources rather than just waiting for HGE, it doesn't get repetitive because the player isn't performing a very limited set of the same repetitive actions or even just staring at the screen. So grind doesn't occur at all even though you fill the swimming pool up a little bit.

It's not rude or ignorant, it's well meant advice that actually works.

What if my goal is not to fill a swimming pool but rather to practice the 400 meter relay inside of the pool, or the 200 meter breastroke? Once you understand that what people want to do is actually swim in the pool, and that these people are discouraged about being handed a rusted sieve to fill it with and all they're really asking for is a plastic bucket, or maybe a garden hose, then you'll start to see what we've been talking about from a more enlightened perspective.

We just want a bucket, bro; is that too much to ask for?

 

[Stigbob]

What if my goal is not to fill a swimming pool but rather to practice the 400 meter relay inside of the pool, or the 200 meter breastroke?

Make sure your PC is very well insulated.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I think grind can be resolved through deep and more meaningful gameplay & content that effects the sandbox, and for those effects to be more persistent. Personally I think what many players perceive as grind is effectively "padding" powered by RNG. Replace the padding with content and employ then things start to take shape as I see it.

 

[Stigbob]

It is rude and ignorant, because you are assuming people want to play the game the same way you do. You assume that if they do it differently than you do they are "doing it wrong". Like you are the only one smart enough to figure out the proper way to do it and everyone else is dumb and needs your help to realize the EXTREMELY OBVIOUS CONCEPT that we could just stop grinding. Guess what. We know that! The point is that WE DON'T WANT THE GAME TO BE LIKE THAT! We don't want large portions of the game that we simply avoid because it's terrible. We want the game to be good in all areas. We want to engage with these systems in the game. This is why we don't want to just go do something else and stop complaining, because then it will never get fixed.

No it isn't, and no I'm not.

I'm assuming people whinging they don't enjoy the game might benefit from not repeatedly doing the things that make them whinge in the ways that make them whinge. And that they might benefit from trying alternate playing styles suggested by people who actually manage to play the video game without all the whinging.

I don't really value the opinions on how to play games from people who constantly bang on about much they don't like them, other than as an example of what not to do under any circumstances. In short I think they are doing it wrong.

Thinking that you are somehow smarter or better than everyone else in the discussion is why you keep getting called arrogant and condescending. We're not idiots, we understand your point. We just don't agree that it's the best way to handle the situation.

You seem to be the only one doing that, and you're only doing it because your communication skills suck.

 

[NW3]

That's a good idea. Not the same stuff as in another batch of what you already got, the same stuff as in you already picked it up and there's nothing there anymore. Mats that respawn once per day or something, that would prevent location grinding.

Reducing the opportunities for grind might actually reduce the flow of tears.

Yes, that's what I meant. The stuff spawns once every N hours. You could potentially return to the same (known) USS to pick up more stuff, if you didn't have enough cargo space the first time. That would certainly feel "more real".

The thing is, FD would need to fix some issues first. Back when I was collecting alien artifacts for a mission, the ONLY way I could collect enough was to log, completely breaking my immersion. It would completely suck if you simply could not complete a mission because of stuff that wouldn't spawn.

 

[Stigbob]

Yes, that's what I meant. The stuff spawns once every N hours. You could potentially return to the same (known) USS to pick up more stuff, if you didn't have enough cargo space the first time. That would certainly feel "more real".

The thing is, FD would need to fix some issues first. Back when I was collecting alien artifacts for a mission, the ONLY way I could collect enough was to log, completely breaking my immersion. It would completely suck if you simply could not complete a mission because of stuff that wouldn't spawn.

True they'd have to address that, it's not an outlandish idea at all. It's exactly the approach they took with the engineering cap.

It could be easier to limit it via a mode change timer of fifteen minutes or so, not short enough to limit people switching modes for bandwidth issues or whatever but long enough to make hanging around playing mat slot machine pointless.

Edit : scratch the timer idea people would just log to the menu and back

 

[NW3]

Sandro has said on Livestreams that the intention is for players to organically upgrade ships by pootling about doing other stuff...

The issue with this vision as I see it, is that it suits some players who like to play that way, but for others who perhaps are 'goal oriented' this just doesn't work very well... For this group (in which I include myself) the grind, the RNG, the tedium of it can be pretty bad, and this is why I think we see so many threads on the same issue.

Basically the game designers have a vision of how you should be playing the game, and many of us (including myself) according to that vision are just doing it wrong.

Yes, this game is really hard for "goal oriented" players; not just for collecting materials, but as far as not setting any goals for you. "Play your way" isn't very helpful for those without imagination or those with limited interests (like PvP) who will also have serious issues with this game.

Personally, I don't think FD will ever make enough changes to the game to make "goal oriented" players happy. It's time to learn how to "pootle". (That sounds so dirty; it's hard to believe it's a real word, but it is: I looked it up.)

An aside: I've been playing FarCry 5 and it suffers from the opposite problem, at least in the early part of the game. It sets every goal for me; do this, then that, now do this other thing. It has a story, but the game (so far) feels very linear. It's more like watching a movie, instead of playing a game.