Grind mentality in today's video gamer community and ED

So, the removal of rare commodities trading from ED was not surprising. The huge profits were considered an exploit by many and cried over a lot at the forums.
But just how "huge" were these profits in reality?

I recently installed and played a retro video game called "Frontier: First Encounters" from the mid-1990s. It is a space sim where you start in a tiny ship with 100 credits and have to work your way up. It's rather similar to ED actually.
Anyways, what struck me was that in this retro game you can easily progress to the best ship money can buy with the best of equipment within a day of playing. Maybe not in one evening session after work, but if you have a free day it is perfectly doable. And I am not talking about a 24 hour nonstop marathon session here. 6-10 hours of hauling stuff between Sol and Barnards Star and you are there.

So what happened in the 20 years since then?

Rare commodities trading in ED gamma 1.5 was comparably way less profitable than regular trading in FFE.
People were throwing a lot of varying numbers around the forum about how much money rare commodities trading was generating. But even with the highest of these "X Million credits per hour" estimates one thing is clear:
If you look at the prices for high end ships and especially upgrades, there was no way to get to a maxed out anaconda within 6 hours of rare commodities trading. And that is not even counting the time to actually progress to the setup which was generating those X million credits per hour.

Yet in today's community the ED style of hauling regular commodities (about fifty times less profitable than trading in FFE) is considered the norm and the gamma 1.5 style of hauling rare commodities (still about ten times less profitable than trading in FFE) is considered an exploit. Wow.

Where does this massive demand for tedious grind stem from?
It originates from the world of MMORPGs obviously. But when the grind was invented it was for subscription-based games. There it made absolute sense from a developer's perspective. Use every psychological trick to keep your players playing (and paying) as long as possible, disregarding if they have fun in the process. Yet by the end of 2014 the grind has somehow managed to transfer itself via osmosis to non-subscription-based MMOs, even if they have a strong quasi-singleplayer vibe to them like ED has.

Why is the grind here? Just to keep us around as long as possible in hopes of milking some more pennys from us via microtransactions?
Why can't a game just be fun? I already have a job that brings enough grind elements into my life.

Pre-emptive answer to those crying I just want it "easy":
Just because something takes a long time, it is not necessarily hard. And just because something can be done quickly, it is not necessarily easy. But you will never understand that.
 
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I will agree that the grindyness of games as of late has gone a bit overboard, but the differnce between "Frontier: First Encounters" Aka ELITE: 3 and ELITE: Dangerous is that the need to keep people interested in a game for longer amounts of time Being that its constanly evolving and player driven not a packaged singleplayer games. if we started just getting everything super fast then the dynamic of feeling like you have earned something from your work is gone and the game gets stale real quick. I dont personally look at the beginning of this game a grind i love it in fact...Thats why i cleared my save the day i found out that we were not getting wiped so i could start it over and try my hand at a different outcome from where i last started.
 
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I think what exacerbates the grind is the sterile nature of missions (particularly) and trading.

For example: Cmdr loads up the bulletin board, what should happen is that he checks out a few video posts at varied individuals with a spectrum of different tasks needing doing. Potentially a kill mission v the Wrack or similar with a video of what the Wrack's Anaconda looks like rather than just text. I mean, even the 1984 Elite had a rotating picture of the Constrictor you had to go and kill, yet 30 years later we just have a block of text. Maybe some video news footage of the Galnet news, Starship Troopers stylee or at least using some test to speech with added vdeo mechanic, rather than... another block of text. Don't fancy that mission, I'll go do some looking around/pirating. Hyperspace out, ah there's a lonely trader. Can I tell him to give me some cargo? Could I ask him any questions about where he is headed or (DDA) any potential trade to be had? No, I can't communicate with NPCs, despite them being the main potential target of interaction. Can't do any of that, so I'll go on to the next space station and see what blocks of text they have to read and choose a generic text-based mission. Ho hum.
 
I've played Frontier for almost 20 years (on and off).
I'll probably play ED until FD turn the servers off (spaghetti monster forbid).

Playing Elite (for extended periods) is not about the grind, or the pew pew, or the mining, or the trading, or the exploration....its about a combination of all these things.

At the risk of sounding like a complete fanboy fruitcake, Elite is a way of life. Its a Han Solo simulator. Its a set of tools that allows your imagination to fly, where you can immerse yourself in a future version of our Galaxy.

The future of ED (for the non-fanboy masses) will depend upon FD's continuing ability to craft an interesting story within the gameworld. For this reason alone, it has to be online....it can't be standalone. Fanboy fruitcakes like me are used to crafting our own reality within Frontier, but today's generation of gamers expect more input from the game itself. FD have built the tools to craft their story, and only time will tell what they will give us to work with along the way.

I'm very optimistic for the future of ED.
 
Why is the grind here? Just to keep us around as long as possible in hopes of milking some more pennys from us via microtransactions?
Why can't a game just be fun? I already have a job that brings enough grind elements into my life.

Wow, such cynicism! Are microtransactions the reason why an Anaconda is expensive? Probably not.

Life in the galaxy should be one of earning your way, sure. Earn fast, earn slow, whatever. If you're not enjoying yourself doing it, "live" another way.


Personally, I want things to buy that I can aspire to. Goals. Currently, my goal is to earn enough for an A FSD for my new Cobra. I keep that goal in mind, and find ways to work towards it. If those stop being fun, I do something else.


Not sure how it would work if earning credits was twice as fast. Or ten times as faster. Or a thousand times faster.

At a certain point, within a short space of time, everyone has absolute freedom to buy every ship, component or thing in the game. Does that only apply to "Pilots Federation" pilots? Are we Gods among clods? Why would NPCs ever be in Haulers and Sidewinders - they would surely be in Anacondas too. :)

Then... everybody's a God, able to magic up a King's ransom in next to no time, like playboy celebrities.


Why would pirates exist? Just magic up funds, and live like a Sultan. No need for limpets, threats, risk.


Me, I prefer a galaxy of struggling pilots, desperate pirates, opportunists, looking for a chance to hit the jackpot while watching their backs - and trying to cover costs for Wear and Tear. ;)

Each to their own...
 
I wouldn't mind to have some far away target I can work for. But at the moment this far away target is HALF THE SHIPS. And the keep adding more and more multi-million credit ships.
While I think ships aren't everything, there's not much left of content otherwise.
So it seems to me that ship (and upgrade) prices are that high because it is the only form of content thats motivating people to play.
I do believe that there will be more content in the future, but then I don't see me risking millions of insurance money in epic battles. Means it will propably be Cobra for life for me, and it gets boring seeing the same old cockpit already.

In short, I think the bigger ships don't offer enough "bang for buck", at least combat-wise and that buck is too hard to obtain (even with trading).
That makes, at least for me, half of the ships a bit pointless and the game in conclusion less fun.
I hope that there will be changes in the future.
 
The OP has a valid point. Trading in standard commodities in a Cobra with 36 ton cargo at best will net 15-20K per run. Profits in Gamma 2.0 are down from 1000/ton to more like 600/ton at best. Gold and Progenitor Cells runs are much lower in profit. Mission purchases typically cost 50-70 percent of the gross value. Missions with the cargo supplied are much lower in value. Systems that mine and/or refine metals charge more than some systems that want to buy them. Without rare commodities you're probably looking at 200k/hour trading. An FSD to get a Cobra up to a 15LY range costs 180k. A4 Class gear costs 1.6 million each. So one can spend many hours just outfitting a Cobra and haven't even got to a Lakon Type 6 or Asp. One could strip out a Cobra to get 60 tons cargo but then with 300 runs and no shields it only takes losing one Interdiction to blow away most of your profits. The only solution is to not outfit the Cobra and grind away getting larger transports to make more credits. Then come back to a Cobra.
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On the other end of the scale running a ship worth 400 million is going to cost A LOT just to operate let alone get blown away. Will the market provide the profits just to break even on a trade run? We'll see. Thus overall the profits in the trading system are grossly unbalanced versus the extreme prices for gear.
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I'm all for a challenge but not 8 hours trading just to purchase 1 A4 gear at 1.6 million, let alone other gear which cost even more. There should be a non-linear logarithmic escalation to larger ships where it starts out lower on the smaller ships so that players can obtain a reasonable ship setup and then go have fun with it.
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The game is really balanced more for Combat quickly setting up an Eagle or Viper then go play (been there, done that). For Traders they will spend hundreds of hours more before they get a similar satisfaction. I think the real problem is the balance between Trading and Combat. If there are good trading profits then Traders will be happy and those interested in Combat will also obtain more powerful ships sooner, etc.. But why not get your Combat ship sooner? In the end everyone gets what they want and we all want to play with the toys per our own desires. As a Trader I want a large transport with weapons and gear to defend myself while some Combat player tries to take me out. It all balances out. We just don't need 1000 hours of gameplay to get there.
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It took a long time to get a Panther Clipper or Imperial Trader in FE2 or FFE. It took even longer to get to Elite status and those NPCs were faster and much more serious! ED NPCs is a cakewalk. But there was a measured progression that one could relate to and feel good about. I never considered trading a grind and actually that concept didn't exist for me back then. Thus the game was enjoyable with a sense of accomplishment. I don't feel that same accomplishment in ED...and that's what it's all about right? To each his/her own.
 
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If the game is a "grind" to some people then why play it all? Grinding implies it is something unpleasant you have to do to get to some goal.
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I do a lot of patrols around nav beacons. I'm not grinding, I'm doing the job I have set myself in ED, and I enjoy doing it. Why would you constantly do one thing for hours if you're not enjoying it? If you approach this game as a grind, it will be. If you approach it with a bit of imagination, chances are you'll enjoy it a whole lot more.
 
Depends on your idea of fun and your generation. I come from a generation where credit didnt really exist, and therefore you saved your money for everything you needed to buy, and sometimes that could take a year, so I personally do not see this as a grind, but reality.

For those of you younguns, who are used to everything here and now I can see where you are coming from, but can only say patience young Obi Wan...
 
I recently installed and played a retro video game called "Frontier: First Encounters" from the mid-1990s. It is a space sim where you start in a tiny ship with 100 credits and have to work your way up. It's rather similar to ED actually.
Anyways, what struck me was that in this retro game you can easily progress to the best ship money can buy with the best of equipment within a day of playing. Maybe not in one evening session after work, but if you have a free day it is perfectly doable. And I am not talking about a 24 hour nonstop marathon session here. 6-10 hours of hauling stuff between Sol and Barnards Star and you are there.

Please let this be real, please....
 
I wouldn't mind to have some far away target I can work for. But at the moment this far away target is HALF THE SHIPS. And the keep adding more and more multi-million credit ships.
It may seem like they are a long way off but with each ship the potential earnings increase more cargo space = more profit, more powerful weapons = quicker kills/bounty, you have to work to get there but it gets easier as you go along if you know what you are aiming for and know what you are doing.
Handing everything to a player on a plate would ruin the game IMO, besides it's not like it's a race enjoy the ride for the journey not the end result!
 
But don't you think its off that the price for doubling cargo space takes ten times the money? And it remains the fact that only trading offers a possibility to get bigger ships (in one's lifetime). A thing that the 'oh so patient' older players should consider ;)
 
From an older thread, have a look how far off the price / hull ratio is for the big ships
There was even a thread were people voted for over 1000h (! and more !) before you get to the biggest ship :eek:

I wanted to make an own thread about this, but OP kinda ninja'd me, so here it goes :

Greetings, fellow Forumites,

today I wanted to discuss about Ships, Prices and Playtime.

First, lets have a look at the following table :
(Price / t Hull , 0.5m Cr / h = 500000 Credits per hour -> Playtime to be able to purchase the Ship)

ShipHull MassPricePrice / t Ratio0.5m Cr /h1m Cr /h5m Cr /h
Hauler14t5272037660.10.050.01
Sidewinder25t3200012800.060.030.006
Eagle50t448008960.090.0450.009
Viper60t14293123820.290.140.029
Lakon 6155t104594567482.091.050.21
Cobra180t27971815540.560.280.056
Asp280t66611532379013.326.661.33
Anaconda400t14696945136742429414729.4
Imperial Clipper500t222958604459244.622.34.46
Federal Dropship580t378142056519737.818.93.78
Lakon 91000t765558427655615376.615.3

[/tr]

In my view, some of those prices (especially Lakon 9 and Anaconda) are way off.
I understand Elite is about the journey and stuff, but if you have a view on the table how long it takes to get them with a somewhat reasonable assumption of making one million credits per hour, this is taking far too long in my view.
Again, I am aware they should not be cheap so that there is something to achieve, but bear in mind these are only basic variants without any equipment. Also, not everyone will be able to make much more than 1 Million Credits per hour, especially when lots of people flood the game and level out profit chances by strongly influencing the market situation.
From my own perspective, even an A-Rank fitted Asp Explorer needs around 50 hours solely of power-trading - and not doing much more besides it, if I count in Equipment. Powertrading is grinding - not really playing the game, if you want to get to a perfectly equipped Asp "on the journey", you need to add a huge multiplier for the Playtime needed to get there.

One of my Long-term goals in Space games is to have one of every ship. If I have a look at my Cr /h ratio, this is not going to happen ( ~1.5 m Cr/h) as it would take 180h of trading to get there - just for basic ship variants. That's not exactly a deal-breaker for me, but I tend to dislike the extreme pricing. Don't get me wrong, I don't want an Anaconda for 10 Millions, but 147 Millions is too much in my view, at least a factor of 2, same goes for Lakon 9 for example.

So what is your view on Ship Pricing and Playtime ?
 
It took a long time to get a Panther Clipper or Imperial Trader in FE2 or FFE.
No it did not.

I know some guys don't believe me, but I actually did play FFE from 100 Credits to a fully equipped Panther Clipper this year (2014). And I am absolutely certain i started and ended the quest on a single day (it was a Saturday). And while I can't remember exactly how much I played that Saturday it can't ever have realistically been more than 16 hours. As far as I remember it was way less.

It may have taken long in our memory, but from today's perspective it was not long at all. Imagine the rage ensuing on these very forums if some game mechanic would allow you to get to a fully equipped Anaconda in a single day (since profits are growing along with your progress we are talking endgame profits of ~ 100 million credits per hour here).

I guess my point is kind of the following:
Even though FE2 and FFE had a from today's perspective ridiculously quick progression, getting to a panther clipper is in our memory still remembered as an epic quest twenty years later. As proven by the quote above.
You don't need thousands and thousands of hours of grind in order for something to feel epic. I just don't get why game developers are so hell-bent on going that route.
 
Par for the course in online games.. Frankly though most online game provide actual content to tide you over something ED is sorely lacking at the moment. Its the worst of both worlds :(
 
Par for the course in online games.. Frankly though most online game provide actual content to tide you over something ED is sorely lacking at the moment. Its the worst of both worlds :(
At least let the game come out before you decry it for lack of content! nobody but the dev's know what is coming on launch yet so on the 16th the point you make may be valid but right now it's just moaning for moaning sake IMO.
 
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