Grind mentality in today's video gamer community and ED

[Archon]

I think the problem is simply that some people have too much time on their hands and expect a game to endlessly fill that time. Any game should be put down occasionally.

"The grind" is the solution and the problem for open ended game makers. To provide endless content is impossible.

Personally I don't feel that ED is too grindy, but I don't play as much as many.

 

[Pro Gamer]

Where does this massive demand for tedious grind stem from?
It originates from the world of MMORPGs obviously. But when the grind was invented it was for subscription-based games. There it made absolute sense from a developer's perspective. Use every psychological trick to keep your players playing (and paying) as long as possible, disregarding if they have fun in the process. Yet by the end of 2014 the grind has somehow managed to transfer itself via osmosis to non-subscription-based MMOs, even if they have a strong quasi-singleplayer vibe to them like ED has.

This is very true.

 

[Jeheil]

Grind in itself as a term is a construct.

All games attempt immersion, where you are meant to play a role that you enjoy (often a dissimilar role to that you play in real life), perhaps its a fantasy, perhaps its an escape.

However behind any game is a spreadsheet...a formula...with the advent of forums/social grouping we have learned to very quickly de-construct the algorithms that are behind the 'game'. We then recongnise that to get from A to B, requires us to 4 times X, 3 times Y and 9 times Z.

We then forget about our immersive dream (I want to be an Anaconda Pilot of Death...whose very entry to a system causes the sun to quake) and instead set our objectives to be I must deliver 400 tonnes of tea to London Orbital and take 500 tonnes of wombat poop to Sydney hub. This will take me 17 trips, I can do 17 trips in 11 mins per trip, thus I have a 9.123234 hour grind in front of me.

By deconstructing the immersion WE create the grind.

You can deconstruct anything into tedium, in order to get into bed with Sally, I must first take her on 3 safe (coffee) dates to win reputation with her, I must then take her to three high falluting events (concerts, museums etc) in order to make her think I am lovely and I must win rep. with her parents. You could take this approach with Sally and all the lead up to your goal will be boring grind (hopefully followed by the good grind ).

In order to buy the house I want, I must first work 2344 weeks saving 20% per week until I have a deposit of X, while at the same time not punching my boss in the face because he recently took Sally to bed as soon as she saw his Porche.

Grind is a construct WE ruin the game with, the only time I think you can blame the game for 'grind' is when the ONLY way to do something is to repeat the exact same task 100 times with no veil of variety or contextualisation that obscures the fact you are basically a truck driver.

 

[Alric]

Look, I don't even disagree on your point that Sol-Barnards Star in FE2 / FFE is a somewhat monotone experience. However trading in ED is even more monotonous.

That's the thing. You've identified a way of playing the game which is boring and you have to spend a lot of time doing it.
Your solution is to keep it boring but reduce the time spent doing it.
I find this to be a flawed solution.

 

[Dethmunk]

"Han Solo Simulator".....genius! I completely agree with this statement.

ELITE has always been an open world which you LIVE. Its not an FPS, or a Mission based Shooter. It's a second life simulation. You can do almost anything. You need credits? then like real life you have to go out and earn them! Do you own a Rolls Royce a few weeks after passing your test?! no you probably never will either? ELITE is an experience, in which you're free to do anything. Why worry about trading you could mine? My friend was making 150 - 200,000cr a run. Ok that's a million maybe more an hour, and yes I appreciate that the Anaconda is a mind boggling price (what do you expect is a massive ship!). But he's only using a Cobra Mk.III with a 2 slot Refinery, if he got a larger ship and better refinery he'd be pulling even more with each run. But he had to go out and search system after system til he found the golden goose of a Pristine Ring Cluster that was giving out Platinum!! It requires effort and yes time (although he doesn't spend every day playing either) and imagination.

Who knows what Frontier have planned for the game. May be this big storyline which launches on the 16th will allow you to join proper Naval battles and if your side wins or make the desired kills you get great big Lottery Win style bonus? Maybe. Who knows. Then you could buy your massive ship.

If that is not enough for you then may be something like Star Citizen is what you want. with dense hand crafted missions and locations, around 100 star systems (so you can find your friends easily) and around (according to Chris Roberts) about 50hrs of gameplay - of the main story arc. Job Done move on... ELITE isn't that! its meant to be played for months nay years - ala World of Warcraft etc.

I can see why people think that trading is a grind, but that's trading...isn't it? Haulage runs are kinda repetitive (but if you like trading then thats your bag right?). So why not go off now and again and find a mission to do or an asteroid to mine or explore an unknown system which might have some unusual or strange anomaly or yes go on a trip to meet up with a friend and then go off picking off unsuspecting traders or become the bounty hunter bros. whatever, its all out there to do, and you are the only person stopping yourself from enjoying it.

Everyone has their opinion though and fair play to them. I for one love ELITE Dangerous and I will keep playing til the servers are shut off or I die of old age!

 

[zynaps]

Grinding can be fun if the skill ceiling is high. The problem is that the skill ceiling in ED is low to non-existent in all the cases except for the actual piloting of the ship, but that's a skill you can learn in an hour or two and then another week to become decent at. What you have left after that is a grind that comes without any feeling of personal satisfaction. Games with longevity are games where even after a thousand hours you can log off and say "Hey, I learnt something new today! I'm better at playing the game today then I was yesterday!". Better in this case means better on a personal level, not better in-game statistics.

In ED, the initially steep learning curve flattens off abruptly after you have logged a few days of gametime and then there's only in-game progression left: get a bigger ship, get more credits. But reaching those goals, the biggest ship and economical independence is something that can be reached after a weeks worth of playtime. After that ceiling has been reached there's little drawing the average gamer back to the game. Pretty graphics and a novel techniques (PG) carries little value to those that want a game to return to month after month.

There's a reason some games are immensely popular even though they consist of endless grinding; after you are done grinding you get something out of it on a personal level, a feeling of accomplishment.

 

[Cat_Astrophe]

That may be why they want you to grind. So the money doesn't lose the value

If we had a player to player sales economy, that might hold true, but in this case the only buying and selling occurs between the player and the server... and the server can already print up all the credits it wants (like governments). The in game currency has absolutely no value whatsoever aside from being able to trade it back to the server for some in game item. So if you and I had a gazillion credits, how would that change the value of a thing which has no value outside player/server interaction? It wouldn't affect the dubious "value" of anyone elses credits whatsoever!
>
@ Zynaps: Grinding is never fun for me, thanks. A little sacrifice to fulfill a goal is "ok", too much and it's work.

 

[SuperGhostMaster]

So, the removal of rare commodities trading from ED was not surprising. The huge profits were considered an exploit by many and cried over a lot at the forums.
But just how "huge" were these profits in reality?

I recently installed and played a retro video game called "Frontier: First Encounters" from the mid-1990s. It is a space sim where you start in a tiny ship with 100 credits and have to work your way up. It's rather similar to ED actually.
Anyways, what struck me was that in this retro game you can easily progress to the best ship money can buy with the best of equipment within a day of playing. Maybe not in one evening session after work, but if you have a free day it is perfectly doable. And I am not talking about a 24 hour nonstop marathon session here. 6-10 hours of hauling stuff between Sol and Barnards Star and you are there.

So what happened in the 20 years since then?

Rare commodities trading in ED gamma 1.5 was comparably way less profitable than regular trading in FFE.
People were throwing a lot of varying numbers around the forum about how much money rare commodities trading was generating. But even with the highest of these "X Million credits per hour" estimates one thing is clear:
If you look at the prices for high end ships and especially upgrades, there was no way to get to a maxed out anaconda within 6 hours of rare commodities trading. And that is not even counting the time to actually progress to the setup which was generating those X million credits per hour.

Yet in today's community the ED style of hauling regular commodities (about fifty times less profitable than trading in FFE) is considered the norm and the gamma 1.5 style of hauling rare commodities (still about ten times less profitable than trading in FFE) is considered an exploit. Wow.

Where does this massive demand for tedious grind stem from?
It originates from the world of MMORPGs obviously. But when the grind was invented it was for subscription-based games. There it made absolute sense from a developer's perspective. Use every psychological trick to keep your players playing (and paying) as long as possible, disregarding if they have fun in the process. Yet by the end of 2014 the grind has somehow managed to transfer itself via osmosis to non-subscription-based MMOs, even if they have a strong quasi-singleplayer vibe to them like ED has.

Why is the grind here? Just to keep us around as long as possible in hopes of milking some more pennys from us via microtransactions?
Why can't a game just be fun? I already have a job that brings enough grind elements into my life.

Pre-emptive answer to those crying I just want it "easy":
Just because something takes a long time, it is not necessarily hard. And just because something can be done quickly, it is not necessarily easy. But you will never understand that.

Your argument is that an exploit (which made the game easier) was removed and this is because MMORPG gamers (which this is neither an MMO or an RPG) want it to be to easy, and so this is catering to their crying?

I think your logic is flawed. Your argument is self-defeating.

MMORPGs may include a lot of grind, if that's how you *choose* to play, but they also include larger rewards, rare items, etc. for completing certain missions, so kind of "rare commodities".

Grinding wasn't "invented" for MMORPGs by any means. You clearly never played any 90's-era RPG - there was a ton of grind. You had to level to a certain point to beat a mission that would advance the story line. Rarely would you be prepared to take on the next story mission before leveling by doing a bunch of side quests, going in and out of the same area repeatedly to get baddies to respawn, etc. This was just part of the game.

A great example would be ANY Japanese RPG from the 90s: FF, Chrono Cross/Trigger, Lunar, etc. Balder's Gate games, the older Elder Scrolls and similar western RPGs had the same thing.

 

[AndyC77]

i believe it offers more balance this way. what is a the point of rare goods if they the opposite of rare. as for "grind" this is a term made up by people that cant enjoy a game and take there time to progress. its all about the "i want all the best gear now" generation. It is a mentality thing, any game i play will never be a grind because it would cease to be entertaining for me so i wont play.

 

[Tas Devil]

But you will never understand that.

So if we're never going to understand that, you, your point of view etc, why are you engaging with us then ?

-1

 

[Cat_Astrophe]

as for "grind" this is a term made up by people that cant enjoy a game and take there time to progress. its all about the "i want all the best gear now" generation. It is a mentality thing, any game i play will never be a grind because it would cease to be entertaining for me so i wont play.

How interesting... I resemble that remark... kind of. But my first electronically based game was named "PONG".
>
You may want to rethink your conclusions... may I suggest that some of us "lab rats" are tired of running on wheels for the imaginary pieces of "virtual cheese" that we lose when the game servers shut down for the last time? I've made virtual fortunes in pretty much every game I have played and what do I have left of it now? Pretty pointless focus. If you just like grinding endlessly, I am sure there is a Korean game out there just for you. I'll offer recommendations if you want them.

 

[ste]

I'm pretty sure it wasnt even close to possible to grind the best ship in frontier in 6 hours.

 

[Alric]

You can deconstruct anything into tedium, in order to get into bed with Sally, I must first take her on 3 safe (coffee) dates to win reputation with her, I must then take her to three high falluting events (concerts, museums etc) in order to make her think I am lovely and I must win rep. with her parents. You could take this approach with Sally and all the lead up to your goal will be boring grind (hopefully followed by the good grind ).

I think you nailed it.

 

[Ghutts]

Posted this in another thread, but it's relevant. I played FFXI for years. Elite is not a grind.

 

[mitth'raw'nuruodo]

I fully agree with OP, but this game being MMO there is no solution (other than locking solo and openplay to different economic rules / worlds). If the grind is reduced, everyone will be flying an Anaconda after two days.

Another approach towards this problem is how ships are balanced. Why do people grind? They do it get the next big ship. Ships are the only thing that gives a sense of progression in the game (similar to leveling in an RPG). The problem is that the progression is very linear. The pricier ships are better in BOTH combat and trading. Thus the risk-reward ratio for trading is only an insignificant fraction of the risk-reward ratio for military/combat. In other words, trading gets 1000x more income than combat at a fraction of the risk. So there really is little sense for anyone to still fly a Viper when they can switch to a Lakon Type 9.

Things are better balanced up until Lakon 6, which is an excellent freighter but weak in combat. But once you get to an Asp and beyond, the progress becomes extremely linear (i.e. a pricier ship will generally defeat a lower priced one in both trading and combat).

If it were upto me, I will significantly reduce either the fighting capabilities or the cargo capacity of those big ships, and then reduce the prices overall. This will remove the incentive for everyone to upgrade to an Anaconda. People will have a reason to fly the small ships despite being able to afford bigger ones.

Hope that made sense.

 

[Star Odrade]

Your argument is that an exploit (which made the game easier) was removed and this is because MMORPG gamers (which this is neither an MMO or an RPG) want it to be to easy, and so this is catering to their crying?

I think your logic is flawed. Your argument is self-defeating.

MMORPGs may include a lot of grind, if that's how you *choose* to play, but they also include larger rewards, rare items, etc. for completing certain missions, so kind of "rare commodities".

Grinding wasn't "invented" for MMORPGs by any means. You clearly never played any 90's-era RPG - there was a ton of grind. You had to level to a certain point to beat a mission that would advance the story line. Rarely would you be prepared to take on the next story mission before leveling by doing a bunch of side quests, going in and out of the same area repeatedly to get baddies to respawn, etc. This was just part of the game.

A great example would be ANY Japanese RPG from the 90s: FF, Chrono Cross/Trigger, Lunar, etc. Balder's Gate games, the older Elder Scrolls and similar western RPGs had the same thing.

No, I'm gonna have to agree with the OP. I would definitely say MMOs created the tedious content padding that players like to term "progression" these days. I don't recall encountering anything in a game resembling "press a button ten thousand times to progress" until I started playing Everquest, which was a subscription based MMO that needed to keep players renewing.

None of the games you mentioned required mindlessly grinding levels or cash at any point. The early Final Fantasy games/Chrono Trigger can be played through while actively trying to maintain the lowest level possible. Morrowind can be completed in about 4 minutes. I've completed Baldur's Gate/Throne of Bhaal with a single character. You can have six in your party.

Those games gave you the option of grinding out levels or money if your lack of ability or know-how kept you from progressing. If you couldn't handle a task you could beat your head against a wall for a few hours and brute force your way past. The grinding wasn't required. It wasn't how you played the game. It was a last resort.

This game right now is Elite: Tedious; I'm hoping they'll start injecting some fun and challenge into the game soon.

 

[peace]

But don't you think its off that the price for doubling cargo space takes ten times the money? And it remains the fact that only trading offers a possibility to get bigger ships (in one's lifetime). A thing that the 'oh so patient' older players should consider

It's probably late in the thread to say this, but a lot of people get enjoyment from the progress they make. Buying a new ship or upgrading some weapons is what provides them with a sense of reward. For these people - and I think it's a sizable proportion of the player base, the game needs to have a very long progression path because once they reach the top their enjoyment of the game diminishes; they have essentially "completed" the game. So the game has to be a balance between pleasing such people and not putting the top tier stuff so far beyond starting people's life that it just looks like an endless road.

 

[Cat_Astrophe]

It's probably late in the thread to say this, but a lot of people get enjoyment from the progress they make. Buying a new ship or upgrading some weapons is what provides them with a sense of reward. For these people - and I think it's a sizable proportion of the player base, the game needs to have a very long progression path because once they reach the top their enjoyment of the game diminishes; they have essentially "completed" the game. So the game has to be a balance between pleasing such people and not putting the top tier stuff so far beyond starting people's life that it just looks like an endless road.

They have only "completed the game" if their views are so narrow that they cannot see that they can alter the "Virtual Construct" itself. That's the real endgame.

 

[Leopard]

No, I'm gonna have to agree with the OP. I would definitely say MMOs created the tedious content padding that players like to term "progression" these days. I don't recall encountering anything in a game resembling "press a button ten thousand times to progress" until I started playing Everquest, which was a subscription based MMO that needed to keep players renewing.

None of the games you mentioned required mindlessly grinding levels or cash at any point. The early Final Fantasy games/Chrono Trigger can be played through while actively trying to maintain the lowest level possible. Morrowind can be completed in about 4 minutes. I've completed Baldur's Gate/Throne of Bhaal with a single character. You can have six in your party.

Those games gave you the option of grinding out levels or money if your lack of ability or know-how kept you from progressing. If you couldn't handle a task you could beat your head against a wall for a few hours and brute force your way past. The grinding wasn't required. It wasn't how you played the game. It was a last resort.

This game right now is Elite: Tedious; I'm hoping they'll start injecting some fun and challenge into the game soon.

Well said.

Would be nice if they came up with ways for players who have more skill than they have time to advance more quickly. Skill/competency based challenges or challenging missions I suppose.

I think the plan is to eventually make credits available for purchase. I'm okay with that though as long as the exchange is reasonable. I would rather blow up ships for 2 hours in an evening; have fun and make few credits than push an apple cart across the galaxy for 12 hours a day to buy a ship.

 

[SuperGhostMaster]

No, I'm gonna have to agree with the OP. I would definitely say MMOs created the tedious content padding that players like to term "progression" these days. I don't recall encountering anything in a game resembling "press a button ten thousand times to progress" until I started playing Everquest, which was a subscription based MMO that needed to keep players renewing.

None of the games you mentioned required mindlessly grinding levels or cash at any point. The early Final Fantasy games/Chrono Trigger can be played through while actively trying to maintain the lowest level possible. Morrowind can be completed in about 4 minutes. I've completed Baldur's Gate/Throne of Bhaal with a single character. You can have six in your party.

Those games gave you the option of grinding out levels or money if your lack of ability or know-how kept you from progressing. If you couldn't handle a task you could beat your head against a wall for a few hours and brute force your way past. The grinding wasn't required. It wasn't how you played the game. It was a last resort.

This game right now is Elite: Tedious; I'm hoping they'll start injecting some fun and challenge into the game soon.

I only meant that grinding is classic to RPGs, particularly if you want to do a bunch of side quests and earn extra $$ to get to buy the rare goods, etc. I agree Elite:Tedious is appropriate.

That's one of the reasons I asked for a refund this week.