Has anyone noticed that shops don't actually have a running cost based on what they sell?

[Kickflip]

Do you feel games/sims were more complex in the 90's and very early 2000's?

They weren't.

I think they did a good job of making people think that they were through lots of menus and radio wheels and adjustable percentages though.

The type of simulation has changed though as well. Simcity was about managing the stats in your little squares and everything else was extrapolated to make you think more was going on. Cities Skylines does the same for the square management but with more squares and then using that data creates citizen objects to track with their own routing schedules which then feeds back into the square management for income and happiness, etc. It's considerably more complex but things that would have been a dial before are now handled through the player having to layout their city more efficiently.

 

[Kickflip]

Although not being an electrician, I do agree with you. Getting really tired of his behaviour. You can barely discuss anything with him, he will either focus on personal attack/discussions or he will call everything the worst, lazy and lying.

Anyhow, personal things do not make me ignore the topic. And I actually wanted to get on topic, cause I think we wouldn't benefit from such micromanagement in the way you're suggesting. I wouldn't for sure!

If it happens automated, like I suggested before, I would love it. More visitors mean more running costs, it could get two ways after that:

1) You sell little and with every 100 guests entering you'll lose money or gain very little.
2) Your shop does well and with every 100 guests your profit increases as the price of an item is higher than the running costs per item.

It doesn't mean the running costs go up per sold item, but per potential buyer. More guests means more stock required. If the running costs increases per 10 or per 100 does not really matter. As long as it does make difference it's fine with me.

Each store can only serve around 300 customers per period. Your idea is sort of in the game because to serve more than 300 per 12 minutes, you need to build a 2nd shop which has its own fixed cost so you're buying more stock for that shop.


The current solution is more simple and elegant that what people are giving it credit for.

 

[Heurtaux]

Each store can only serve around 300 customers per period. Your idea is sort of in the game because to serve more than 300 per 12 minutes, you need to build a 2nd shop which has its own fixed cost so you're buying more stock for that shop.


The current solution is more simple and elegant that what people are giving it credit for.

True, did actually not think about that. And that's way I did not agree with the original idea, cause one shop will never sell 50000 items in a month. So the differences are minimal and the way it is now does the job for me.

 

[Citytrader]

Can anyone say "tempest in a teacup?"

Way too much micromanagement. I still like my idea of "Costco Distribution Center Tycoon". That should solve FMX's problem.

 

[War Drone]

say we have a theoretical line that can hold 4 people, with a shared shop of food and drink 2 people want a drink and 2 people want food. now a 5th person wants food but since the theoretical line limit is maxed out they cant get the food and start complaining they are hungry.

2 separate shops dont have this issue and actually increases profit because you have more than one person being served at the same time. in this instance now you have 3 people in line for food and 2 people in line for drink with room for more.

People dont eat and drink at the same time so having a shop that does both is pointless really

Um.... plenty of people are hungry and thirsty at the same time. I know this personally and have seen it in the game guests also...
So your argument is flawed because when a guest is both hungry and thirsty they have to stand on 2 lines. So in this case you kill 2 birds with 1 stone instead of 2 birds with 2 stones.
So say you have a drink and a food store and the pair are near each other spread out all over your park and the line for food or drink on 1 of them is full they then have to leave the area to search for the next possibly place to satisfy this need when they could've gotten on the non full line and got both.

 

[breezerHOG1]

Do you feel games/sims were more complex in the 90's and very early 2000's?

They weren't.

RCT1 and Theme Hospital are two of the best sim games of all time, they are still great games.

Some even older ones I used to really enjoy include Caeser II, SimTower, SimTown, SimPark (although these didn't age well)

 

[FinalMantasyX]

They may not have been more complex.

But they certainly had more progression, balance, and "things to do while you play to keep you engaged". Unlike modern experiences like Cities Skylines and, sadly, Planet Coaster, where you don't really have to DO anything to be successful and all you do is wait for and spend money.

 

[Heurtaux]

They may not have been more complex.

But they certainly had more progression, balance, and "things to do while you play to keep you engaged". Unlike modern experiences like Cities Skylines and, sadly, Planet Coaster, where you don't really have to DO anything to be successful and all you do is wait for and spend money.

But the dev's are trying to make the simulation more challenging. They added the ride aging, which is a very nice feature (if well balanced, which I think will happen later on) and I'm sure they will work on even more features and balancing. They have proven time after time to listen and act on our feedback.

But the thing you're suggesting here would not make the game more realistic qnd doesn't make much sense. As Kickflip said: running costs do go up at higher sells, cause you would require to have more shops. Yet you use this thread as fuel to burn your hatred against Frontier/PC. Come up with something better, post a thread about it and engage in a constructive discussion rather than start to burn down everything making weird comparisons with older games and such. If you like the old graphics and deeper management more, go play Parkitect. Planet Coaster might not be your game...

Name another feature those games had that PC doesn't have. We'll talk about that, we might even come to some good suggestions. What could keep us more engaged while playing? I'm genuinely interested in your ideas.

 

[Costarring]

It starts with a basic issue.
Time.

Management is time X resources X planning (in this case manpower).
But time has no meaning in PC.

Park opening time. Who ever mucked with the opening and closing times of your park?
Did it affect anything?
Does the park really close during those hours?
Are you able to do maintenance during closing hours?
Do your employees get tired or hungry (do they need breaks?)
Where have the ride operators gone? (They used to affect cuetimes (and from my point of view, they should affect breakdowns and downtime of rides)

The only thing time related in PC is cuetime and ridetime.

Are visitors annoyed by the fact that they can't visit all rides in 1 day?
Are we able to guide them through your park (yes, if you only have 1 pathway) to prevent congestion?
Are you able to make specific sections in your park so you can direct people who have certain needs to those places?

Kiosks missing umbrella's, maps, discount vouchers for shops (after having visited rides XYZ) etc.
There should be maps in the kiosk, or maps spread out across your park (the HUGE maps which show your location etc.) which would direct people etc.


The prestige thingy for rides is not added management in my book.
Neither is fixing the UI or adding missing features (like being able to set prices for ALL shops of the same kind)

 

[tyczj]

Um.... plenty of people are hungry and thirsty at the same time. I know this personally and have seen it in the game guests also...
So your argument is flawed because when a guest is both hungry and thirsty they have to stand on 2 lines. So in this case you kill 2 birds with 1 stone instead of 2 birds with 2 stones.
So say you have a drink and a food store and the pair are near each other spread out all over your park and the line for food or drink on 1 of them is full they then have to leave the area to search for the next possibly place to satisfy this need when they could've gotten on the non full line and got both.

Sorry it's not flawed because people don't get a burger and then get right in line for a drink, they finish one first then go get the other item.

Even then you still have the big issue that I explained with the lines and people's desire

 

[cerealfruitcakes]

What's funny is if they combined Food/Drink into one stall people would be complaining that they simplified the management/simulation aspect of stall choices [big grin][tongue]

I do like the idea though of having soda/water as a "generic" choice at food stalls for those who are in the deep red with thirst but if they're in orange they'd still prefer the specialty drink stalls instead.

 

[breezerHOG1]

It starts with a basic issue.
Time.

Management is time X resources X planning (in this case manpower).
But time has no meaning in PC.

Park opening time. Who ever mucked with the opening and closing times of your park?
Did it affect anything?
Does the park really close during those hours?
Are you able to do maintenance during closing hours?
Do your employees get tired or hungry (do they need breaks?)
Where have the ride operators gone? (They used to affect cuetimes (and from my point of view, they should affect breakdowns and downtime of rides)

The only thing time related in PC is cuetime and ridetime.

I've tried postig about this before check it out here https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/20152-Does-the-flow-of-time-feel-appropriate-to-you

 

[Heurtaux]

Park opening time. Who ever mucked with the opening and closing times of your park?
Did it affect anything?
Does the park really close during those hours?

No, doesn't affect anything at all. The only way to close a park is by doing it manually.

Are you able to do maintenance during closing hours?

No, cause the park doesn't close. You could do maintenance when manually closed the park.

Do your employees get tired or hungry (do they need breaks?)

Do they need to, really? What kind of affect would that have? You'll have to make a schedule to make sure nobody will be working for too many consecutive hours. In the end, you would just hire a few employees more to replace other ones and everything would be settled. Does it affect gameplay in anyway? No, it doesn't.

Where have the ride operators gone? (They used to affect cuetimes (and from my point of view, they should affect breakdowns and downtime of rides)

Nahh, ride operators could influence queuetimes, I like that idea. But a ride operator shouldn't affect breakdowns.

The only thing time related in PC is cuetime and ridetime.

Money income and losses are time related. Staff training is time related. Research is time related. Marketing is time related. Loans are time related.

Are visitors annoyed by the fact that they can't visit all rides in 1 day?

Visitors will only be annoyed by queuetimes. They do not have watches or a biological clock. They only see the invisible wait time signs.

Are we able to guide them through your park (yes, if you only have 1 pathway) to prevent congestion?

You can make a difference here. Don't make only one pathway towards an area. Make paths wide enough and spread out rides and shops.

Are you able to make specific sections in your park so you can direct people who have certain needs to those places?

Well yes, if you place rides for children and milkshakes together a family with children will go there, group of teenagers won't. They will go to a thrill ride with a energy drink shop next to it.

Kiosks missing umbrella's, maps, discount vouchers for shops (after having visited rides XYZ) etc.
There should be maps in the kiosk, or maps spread out across your park (the HUGE maps which show your location etc.) which would direct people etc.

It doesn't rain, so where do they need umbrella's for? Maps would be nice, but they do not really add anything to the management? It will be just another thing to sell. So are the huge maps across the park. I never got any discount for riding rides in my life. Besides that, what does it add to the gameplay?

The prestige thingy for rides is not added management in my book.
Neither is fixing the UI or adding missing features (like being able to set prices for ALL shops of the same kind)

The prestige thing does add something to the management when it would work better. Things lose their value in time. Nothing lasts for ever, but we both know rides could change. You can either decide to let the rides become very old, making little to no money. You could restyle a ride with new paint, new sequences, new track pieces, new scenery and make the ride more profitable for another few years. Or you could delete the ride and place a new ride. But people should not refuse to go on the ride beceause it's standing in the park for ten years. You should refuse the ride to be standing there after 25 years, as the maintenance will be expensive and less people will come to the ride as it get's dull and experiences to much downtime (bad reputation).

But you'd rather have pointless map signs than a strategy changing feature?

 

[FinalMantasyX]

They added the ride aging, which is a very nice feature (if well balanced, which I think will happen later on) and I'm sure they will work on even more features and balancing.

If they add more to the game they need to balance it FIRST, not toss it out onto steam, watch as tons of threads go up about how terribly balanced it is, not respond whatsoever because they forced it into everyone's game right before a holiday, and then probably not even bother to tell us when it'll be fixed, if ever. If it's anything like every other change they've made to the game a rebalance will require a new park entirely, and existing aged rides won't be fixed.

The ride aging feature, like the entire rest of the game, is unfinished.

Frontier needs to stop releasing unfinished content. If EA was doing things like this, like I said, there'd be entire articles around the whole gaming internet about it. I don't understand why we're allowed to point out when EA/Ubisoft/Whoever puts out shoddy unfinished work. but when Frontier does it "oh well they'll fix it eventually its okay "

no, it;'s not okay. This is broken content. There is no way someone seriously tested this mechanic and didn't notice the problems with it.

If future features and balancing are handled the same way as this, well. I can't really threaten the state of the game here, because a majority of players are either too casual or too dumb to care. So I suppose I should say "If future features and balancing are tossed out without any attempt at making sure they actually work and don't damage the experience beforehand planet coaster will sell millions of copies and expansion packs". Not much incentive to improve there.

Forget this. Every fear I had during this game's development came true. And it doesn't matter because nobody else cares.

 

[danijami23]

If they add more to the game they need to balance it FIRST, not toss it out onto steam, watch as tons of threads go up about how terribly balanced it is, not respond whatsoever because they forced it into everyone's game right before a holiday, and then probably not even bother to tell us when it'll be fixed, if ever. If it's anything like every other change they've made to the game a rebalance will require a new park entirely, and existing aged rides won't be fixed.

This feature, like the entire rest of the game, is unfinished.

Frontier needs to stop releasing unfinished content. If EA was doing things like this, like I said, there'd be entire articles around the whole gaming internet about it. I don't understand why we're allowed to point out when EA/Ubisoft/Whoever puts out shoddy unfinished work. but when Frontier does it "oh well they'll fix it eventually its okay "

no, it;'s not okay. This is broken content. There is no way someone seriously tested this mechanic and didn't notice the problems with it.

No one is saying it's ok to release broken content. Some people are very vocal about the broken content, and there is nothing wrong with calling it out, for the 100 million million millionth time. We all know it's not ok, and even if we didn't you would never let a single one of us forget it. One subtle but important difference between EA and Frontier though: EA has 8,500 employees and enough money for a massive outsourced QA dept, yet they still manage to release substandard garbage with no character, that's the same as everything else. Frontier has a staff of 300. That, since you're so amazing with math, is 3.5%(ish). Nor do Frontier have a publisher. They are also pretty good about listening to feedback, and are TRYING to give us a better game. Yeah maybe they got a few bits wrong, but I see PC being a very different game in 6 months. Whereas, while we're on the subject, Battlefield has been EXACTLY THE SAME GAME for 10 years now. So don't go drawing pointless comparisons, because EA and Frontier are nothing alike, and neither is their process. It's like comparing Monty Python with the NFL.

I also like that yet again you are resorting to personal attacks because people don't agree with you. It's so classic.

 

[breezerHOG1]

Do they need to, really? What kind of affect would that have? You'll have to make a schedule to make sure nobody will be working for too many consecutive hours. In the end, you would just hire a few employees more to replace other ones and everything would be settled. Does it affect gameplay in anyway? No, it doesn't.

you should check out the game Theme Hospital, it had training rooms where employees could gain new skills, a break room for employees to rest, and automatic shift changes between staff members. It really would be a great addition to PC! I also believe that the person you were quoting was asking rhetorical questions he knows those things are obviously not in the game, and he probably wishes they were

 

[Heurtaux]

If they add more to the game they need to balance it FIRST, not toss it out onto steam, watch as tons of threads go up about how terribly balanced it is, not respond whatsoever because they forced it into everyone's game right before a holiday, and then probably not even bother to tell us when it'll be fixed, if ever. If it's anything like every other change they've made to the game a rebalance will require a new park entirely, and existing aged rides won't be fixed.

The ride aging feature, like the entire rest of the game, is unfinished.

Frontier needs to stop releasing unfinished content. If EA was doing things like this, like I said, there'd be entire articles around the whole gaming internet about it. I don't understand why we're allowed to point out when EA/Ubisoft/Whoever puts out shoddy unfinished work. but when Frontier does it "oh well they'll fix it eventually its okay "

no, it;'s not okay. This is broken content. There is no way someone seriously tested this mechanic and didn't notice the problems with it.

If future features and balancing are handled the same way as this, well. I can't really threaten the state of the game here, because a majority of players are either too casual or too dumb to care. So I suppose I should say "If future features and balancing are tossed out without any attempt at making sure they actually work and don't damage the experience beforehand planet coaster will sell millions of copies and expansion packs". Not much incentive to improve there.

Forget this. Every fear I had during this game's development came true. And it doesn't matter because nobody else cares.

You know what? You're completely right. It's all the media fault and nobody here cares about the game. [weird][up]

 

[Dutcher]

Well, you can't say that this forum isn't passionate about this game

I agree that the shops could use some improvements in the simulation of the costs, but in what way I first like to break down what I believe are running costs for a shop in reality (whether it is in a park or not).
Overall, there are only a few major expenditures:
- Staff
- Rent
- Maintenance
- Products
- (Rent/ ground tax) shall be ignored due to the nature of a shop in a theme park

Staff
Obviously this is the cost for the people behind the counter, in the back or anywhere else in the shop. It is a fixed number.

Maintenance
This is an interesting field as it can be seperated in two sections:
- non-product related maintenance
Is the maintenance of the shop. The daily cleaning, the replacing of equipment such as light fixtures etc. It is a fixed number.
- product related maintenance
This is maintance of products used to produce the goods, but are not sold directly. The blades in a smoothy store blender for instance wear down the more smoothies are blended. So do the pans in which pasta is cooked. The more they're used, the more they run down and the higher the higher the costs. Therefore, this is not fixed. However, it can be calculated in the cost price of a product.

Products
These costs consist of the direct materials to make the product. This can sometimes be the finished product (i.e. a plushe toy), but also the sum of various components (i.e. the contents of a burger)
The exact costs of these products however differ. Buying in large bulks often allows a better deal to be made, creating a lower price. But having too much in storage could cause products to become too old to use. In reality there is a whole stocking system in place to reduce this as much as possible. Daily stock feedback and deliveries etc. Still, a part can still go to waste.


---


Now the problem I've seen in this thread so far is that the game mixes both product and maintenance in a single variable that assumes a certain amount of sales (thus a certain amount of goods bought in) making it feel like it's cutting corners where it shouldn't (expressed with the variable price from Themepark sim). It is something I agree with should be improved, but without removing the fixed maintenance. The price/guest is a solution, though it may be an a-instictive solution. Personally, I would suggest the following alterations in the shop system.

1) Keep the monthly maintenance, but lower it so the current costs for products are removed
2) Add a monthly product costs tab. This is calculated based on the amount of goods sold. For instance the following formula can be used:
$$ = N[SUB]sold[/SUB] * (P[SUB]t[/SUB] - (P[SUB]l[/SUB] / N[SUB]l[/SUB]) * Math.Min(N[SUB]bought[/SUB], N[SUB]low[/SUB]
where:
N[SUB]sold[/SUB] = the amount of products sold in the shop
N[SUB]bought[/SUB] = the amount of products bought for the park
P[SUB]t[/SUB] = The highest price a good can be bought from the producer
P[SUB]l[/SUB] = The lowest price a good can be bought
N[SUB]l[/SUB] = The amount of goods that need to be bought to get the lowest price
(I've assumed a linear relation for the lowering of the price, this formula is merely a suggestion)
An interesting side-effect of this can be when placing multiple of the same shop type. It increases the amount of goods bought, so lowers the price, but can also lower the peep-satisfaction if there isn't a lot of shop variety.
3) Add a monthly waste costs tab. The costs of this tab can fluctuate depending on:
- The fluctuancy in retail based on the previous month (i.e. a drop in sales results in a higher waste)
- The efficiency of the staff. A higher trained staff member leeds to less waste as the inventory is used better/ older products first etc.
I do not know what kind of formula would be useful here, but this addition might create more managment decisions, especially since there is an extra motivation to train staff.

What I haven't discussed yet are customisations. The given formula for instance only takes the total price into account. Some balance needs to be made based on the additions, but I suggest that as these are what they are: additions, to merely treat them as fixed costs/product depending on the amount used.

So yeah... enjoy the rest of your day

 

[Heurtaux]

you should check out the game Theme Hospital, it had training rooms where employees could gain new skills, a break room for employees to rest, and automatic shift changes between staff members. It really would be a great addition to PC! I also believe that the person you were quoting was asking rhetorical questions he knows those things are obviously not in the game, and he probably wishes they were

I think this would be a major [down] when added to PC. What is so great about that? What does a breakroom add? There is so much complaining about the lack of deep management. Adding a breakroom where nothing management-ish happens won't add anything deeper to it!

EDIT: A little nuance here. It wouldn't be a serious [down] when it would be added. As it would be funny. But from the more-deep-management-side of view it would be worth nothing, imo.

I know those questions were retorical[yesnod]. But I do not agree with his opinion about everything. But I don't want to frame anything by only answer the questions I do not agree with. So I've answered them all.

 

[Games4Tom]

I am not a fan of this kind of managment like in Theme Hospital (thats why I tried it and stopped playing after a short time) I have to admit. Well, maybe features like this can be implemented as "Option" to turn "on" or "off" in the settings.
For me this would destroy my game experience if I would need to micro manage all those staff related things on top. I'm more into creating.

BUT before anyone calls me dumb or other things: this is MY personal opinion.
Nevertheless I'm tolerant enough to accept the wishes for more managment, but ask to have them as option.