Have we been lied to?

[babelfisch]

Its a question, not a statement, though to be honest I feel that I have been lied to, or at least what was promised to us back during the crowd funding still, 5 years on has not been put into the game.

We were promised space legs, being able to walk around on stations and our own ships as well as on atmospheric planets. We were promised we would be able to scoop fuel from Gas Giants, flying through amazing looking cloud pillars. Still to this day, one of the most major aspects of the game has not been implemented. Frontier at this point seem more interested in other games than actually providing to us what was promised.

Actually, nothing ever was promised. FDEV always said that, based on financial success, they intent to support the game with expansions and updates after release. They never said when these expansions might arrive, but in every interview David Braben said that stuff like space legs and atmospheric planets are a huge task and wouldn't come any time soon. In fact I remember a Kickstarter video where Braben said if we ever get there. Hardly sounds like a promise to me.
Now the good thing is that they haven't abandoned the game, they are still actively developing it. Currently there is the largest team they ever had working on the next expansion coming later that year. I don't know if it'll be so good that everyone likes it (personally I doubt that, not my problem though). They could've just released the main game and move on to the next title, like so many other developers / publishers are doing it. They didn't.

It does not take 5 years to create what was promised, and in the face of other games that have managed far more than this game, I cant help but feel that I was deceived to an extent by Frontier, David and the development team. They should be pulling out all the stops to put into the game what they promised.

How do you know how long stuff takes? Which other in (terms of scope) comparable games are you talking about? The only other game that comes to mind is Star Citizen which kind of invalidates your point.

If the engine is the issue, then change the engine. Frontier have a responsibility to deliver on what was promised to us and they should be focusing all their efforts on it.

That's probably bad advice. Changing the engine is a huge undertaking and it's very questionable if other engines are even capable of running the game. Most of today's engines lack the accuracy to render objects correctly in the required dimensions for a game like Elite, which is why most space games use tricks to make the game world appear bigger than it is. The Cobra Engine was specifically designed to make Elite possible.

Okay, rant over. I am very, bitterly disappointed that so long after the games launch, we still dont have half of the things that were promised in the initial games pitch during the crowdfunding days. On top of that, the Cobra MK IV, the ship given to those of us that backed the game in beta, is one of the most useless ships in the game. It needs to be totally reworked.

The Cobra MK IV is pretty much a non issue. There are like 40 other ships that may be more to your liking.

Meh, I am full of apathy right now for this game when others, some not even released yet, are doing it better than Elite.

Personally I don't know these games, but if they are so much better in your opinion you should consider to forget about Elite and play them instead.

 

[amigacooke]

So you said it was a question, then basically showed that you were lying in your first sentence.

The OP never promised that he wouldn't make a statement, so you know, plans change etc.

 

[amigacooke]

Frontier trailed what they were intending to do in 2012. Back then I didn't realise I'd need legal advice before taking action, I thought Frontier were a reputable company.

 

[M00ka]

Meh, I am full of apathy right now for this game when others, some not even released yet, are doing it better than Elite.

This parting line is confusing me. How can a game that isn't released, which means no one can play it unless it is in Alpha or Beta (which means it is still in development and bare bones) is better than any game that is published and played by thousands of players every day? This is such a confusing thread....

 

[Stigbob]

"We plan" "we would like" "it would be cool if" and "we hope" is indeed an indication but not a particularly concrete one.

They also told us change was possible and any DLC was dependent on technical feasibility, financial viability, popularity and being fun.

Frontier trailed what they were intending to do in 2012. Back then I didn't realise I'd need legal advice before taking action, I thought Frontier were a reputable company.

Will your legal team be splitting the whole £50 or will they leave some for you ?.

 

[NeilF]

A lot of games have planned features that never go live. FD's situation seems worse because the lack of certain features is exacerbated by the overall lack of gameplay depth. I don't think FD was trying to scam anybody in making promises, I think they were just simply too incompetent to deliver.

I think they set off with some strong ideas/wishes, but soon they started having problems with the project. ie: The Alpha/Beta pitch suggested/implied very involved game mechanics and gameplay, but on release the game mostly consisted of simplistic mechanics (placeholders). And we never really seemed to move on from that. If you consider:-

• When cold running was first shown and discussed, can you remember the chat surround how involved the mechanic would be? How you'd be able to utilise it to sneak into areas undetected for nefarous purpose. But now?
• Remember in the design discussions the talk of more involved combat scenarios along with NPC Wingmen you could give basic tactical commands to (eg: attack this, defend that)... Any depth/complexity along those lines seems like just a pipe dream now.
• How DB said exploration would allow you to find rich new areas to mine, and how these would then lead to economic changes in the bubble, including industrial growth? Meanwhile now, even after a dedicated revision, we just have hotspots strewn across the bubble, meaning exploring for resourses is a waste of time, let alone rewarded. Little/no attempt to make hotspots meaningful by them just being depletable/stateful. And heck, even surface and sub-surface deposits are all but pointless in the new mining mechanics due to poor design!
• The famous capital ship battle video implying really joined up meaningful combat scenarios and gameplay?

The last release of any note for me was planetary surfaces, but since then, little else of worth/merit has been released (IMHO), and indeed some of the releases have been counter productive to the game (eg: Engineering), if not a complete mistake by the management (eg: Multicrew).

Can "New Era" deliver some overdue involved, engaging, bar raising new content?

 

[babelfisch]

Frontier trailed what they were intending to do in 2012. Back then I didn't realise I'd need legal advice before taking action, I thought Frontier were a reputable company.

You don't need legal advice. It's enough to understand what Kickstarter is. Basically you can't expect anything but hope for everything. The truth will usually be somewhere in the middle.
Anyway, so far Frontier is following the intentions they originally outlined, so there is no reason to doubt their repute.

 

[Backelaer]

Its a question, not a statement, though to be honest I feel that I have been lied to, or at least what was promised to us back during the crowd funding still, 5 years on has not been put into the game.

That's your problem right there...

 

[Speedcuffs]

"We plan" "we would like" "it would be cool if" and "we hope" is indeed an indication but not a particularly concrete one.

They also told us change was possible and any DLC was dependent on technical feasibility, financial viability, popularity and being fun.



Will your legal team be splitting the whole £50 or will they leave some for you ?.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Moreover, keep in mind that Elite barely generates any revenue

Well, it's not bad.

The first four years it consistently sold about 750,000 copies of the base game (stats for fifth year not released yet but probably not dropping massively). Let's assume most of them were in sales rather than the full £20 price, and about half of them included Horizons as well, and some of them bought cosmetics too, so call it £15 each.

That's about 11 million in revenue. 100 developers, at an average of £40k a year, would only cost 4 million of that. Plus server costs, building maintenance, share of Frontier's HR and Admin staff, of course, but it's probably still profitable year-on-year, if not massively so.

I mean, it's not getting AAA budgets ... but it's probably still self-funding.

(The studios which are getting AAA budgets of course are not touching the Elite-like genre with a 10 AU bargepole, because it adds massive complications over doing some sort of FPS and 'success' on that budget would need to be tens of times more popular than Elite Dangerous just to break even)

This parting line is confusing me. How can a game that isn't released, which means no one can play it unless it is in Alpha or Beta (which means it is still in development and bare bones) is better than any game that is published and played by thousands of players every day? This is such a confusing thread....

All unreleased games are by definition better than all released games, especially in the space genre.

That's why No Man's Sky and X4 were going to absolutely definitely be the end of Elite Dangerous when they released ... but on release turned out to be computer games after all, and not even really the same sort of space game.

I hear Star Citizen is looking like it might also be a computer game, but I'm sure that's just a vicious rumour.

 

[Stigbob]

Well, it's not bad.

The first four years it consistently sold about 750,000 copies of the base game (stats for fifth year not released yet but probably not dropping massively). Let's assume most of them were in sales rather than the full £20 price, and about half of them included Horizons as well, and some of them bought cosmetics too, so call it £15 each.

That's about 11 million in revenue. 100 developers, at an average of £40k a year, would only cost 4 million of that. Plus server costs, building maintenance, share of Frontier's HR and Admin staff, of course, but it's probably still profitable year-on-year, if not massively so.

I mean, it's not getting AAA budgets ... but it's probably still self-funding.

(The studios which are getting AAA budgets of course are not touching the Elite-like genre with a 10 AU bargepole, because it adds massive complications over doing some sort of FPS and 'success' on that budget would need to be tens of times more popular than Elite Dangerous just to break even)


All unreleased games are by definition better than all released games, especially in the space genre.

That's why No Man's Sky and X4 were going to absolutely definitely be the end of Elite Dangerous when they released ... but on release turned out to be computer games after all, and not even really the same sort of space game.

I hear Star Citizen is looking like it might also be a computer game, but I'm sure that's just a vicious rumour.

Over a million players have accessed EDDB alone according to the stats there IIRC. Makes steam look like peanuts.

 

[babelfisch]

Well, it's not bad.

The first four years it consistently sold about 750,000 copies of the base game (stats for fifth year not released yet but probably not dropping massively). Let's assume most of them were in sales rather than the full £20 price, and about half of them included Horizons as well, and some of them bought cosmetics too, so call it £15 each.

That's about 11 million in revenue. 100 developers, at an average of £40k a year, would only cost 4 million of that. Plus server costs, building maintenance, share of Frontier's HR and Admin staff, of course, but it's probably still profitable year-on-year, if not massively so.

I mean, it's not getting AAA budgets ... but it's probably still self-funding.

(The studios which are getting AAA budgets of course are not touching the Elite-like genre with a 10 AU bargepole, because it adds massive complications over doing some sort of FPS and 'success' on that budget would need to be tens of times more popular than Elite Dangerous just to break even)


All unreleased games are by definition better than all released games, especially in the space genre.

That's why No Man's Sky and X4 were going to absolutely definitely be the end of Elite Dangerous when they released ... but on release turned out to be computer games after all, and not even really the same sort of space game.

I hear Star Citizen is looking like it might also be a computer game, but I'm sure that's just a vicious rumour.

750k copies sold? Don't remember the exact numbers but it's 3 or 4 million sold copies.

PS
Derp. You are talking about 750k per year. Don't mind me.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Its a question, not a statement, though to be honest I feel that I have been lied to, or at least what was promised to us back during the crowd funding still, 5 years on has not been put into the game.

We were promised space legs, being able to walk around on stations and our own ships as well as on atmospheric planets. We were promised we would be able to scoop fuel from Gas Giants, flying through amazing looking cloud pillars. Still to this day, one of the most major aspects of the game has not been implemented. Frontier at this point seem more interested in other games than actually providing to us what was promised.

It does not take 5 years to create what was promised, and in the face of other games that have managed far more than this game, I cant help but feel that I was deceived to an extent by Frontier, David and the development team. They should be pulling out all the stops to put into the game what they promised. If the engine is the issue, then change the engine. Frontier have a responsibility to deliver on what was promised to us and they should be focusing all their efforts on it.

Okay, rant over. I am very, bitterly disappointed that so long after the games launch, we still dont have half of the things that were promised in the initial games pitch during the crowdfunding days. On top of that, the Cobra MK IV, the ship given to those of us that backed the game in beta, is one of the most useless ships in the game. It needs to be totally reworked.

Meh, I am full of apathy right now for this game when others, some not even released yet, are doing it better than Elite.

Sorry, but none of what you are saying was promised.

 

[Axacuatl]

On the funding part - Frontier had the great opportunity to make this game work like a subscription, by releasing a new season every year which has to be paid for. I for my part would be happy to subscribe to it in return for an ongoing serious further development of the Elite universe, and was quite disappointed to see Frontier not take this route after all.
Obviously it becomes a vicious circle if they start to postpone new paid for seasons and then run out of funding in the meantime. They would need to commit internally to a longer-term strategy and then invest into the next upcoming season (as they theoretically are currently) and with the revenues of the newly released season fund the next season.

But it seems that they came to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort. To me it seems as the next season will be pretty much the final truly big update of the game, and they are rather focusing on other projects since a whole while.
Which is a pity, because the core mechanics of the game are gorgious and one could really add to it year after year and make it something big over time, and with its addictive nature I am convinced they'd get a good base of subscribers. But it apparently is not to be.

 

[5AnaHalfHatsize]

That's about 11 million in revenue. 100 developers, at an average of £40k a year.

If they had 100 devs on it in the two years after Horizons first dropped, that 40k mostly paid for them to study their own belly-buttons.

 

[Muzz UK]

It does not take 5 years to create what was promised

Really OP? how long does it take then.....

 

[babelfisch]

But it seems that they came to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort. To me it seems as the next season will be pretty much the final truly big update of the game, and they are rather focusing on other projects since a whole while.
Which is a pity, because the core mechanics of the game are gorgious and one could really add to it year after year and make it something big over time, and with its addictive nature I am convinced they'd get a good base of subscribers. But it apparently is not to be.

Sounds like a waste of time and money in my opinion. If they wanted to abandon the game they could've done that without spending major resources on it for 2 years.

 

[zimms]

[...] But to me it just seems a little strange that someone who has apparently been part of the game for this long, who seemingly knows what is in the game and what isn't, after all this time decides to have a rant? Nothing has radically changed in the last 12 months, so why now, [...]

Maybe that's exactly why.

 

[babelfisch]

Really OP? how long does it take then.....

Do you mean an African or European swallow?

 

[Stigbob]

Sounds like a waste of time and money in my opinion. If they wanted to abandon the game they could've done that without spending major resources on it for 2 years.

I've never understood the link some people seem to perceive between something being actively worked on and it being abandoned.