Roller Coasters Help with first hyper coaster
- Thread starter Abletudu
- Start date
So this is just my opinion.
and im by no means a expert.
What really make me wow is scenery in which a coaster in set and the way it uses its surroundings. You have a layout thats not bad but i could use some theme.
and im by no means a expert.
What really make me wow is scenery in which a coaster in set and the way it uses its surroundings. You have a layout thats not bad but i could use some theme.
Needs a bit more banking on some of the faster turns imo. You've got nice airtime and some sharp turns/helixes which is good since that is the main attraction of a hypercoaster imo. The only thing I would say is it's very short and nearly half of it's duration is going up the chain lift so I would suggest you make it longer and increase the chain speed since a lot of hypers will have pretty fast chains since they are... ya know... pretty tall. In fact you'll find a lot of the tallest coasters use cable lifts nowadays instead of chains (hint hint Frontier) which are generally faster, easier to maintain and over longer distances - cheaper.
Another way to deal with this is to elevate the station, this also means you can create some nice path or coaster interaction by putting things underneath the station platform itself.
Generally speaking whenever I build a hypercoaster I take a look at coasters like Nitro, Goliath, Millennium force, Steel Dragon 2000, Intimidator 305, Fury 325 (The last 4 of those are giga coasters but same sort of idea) etc. They all have tonnes of airtime, overbanked turns, large sweeping drops and fast, wide and highly banked turns.
Quite often it's nice to perhaps have some interaction with terrain, paths and scenery as well but I understand you're looking for feedback primarily on the layout right now.
The thing about hypers is there are lots of things you can't do so go wild with what you can do and don't be afraid to experiment with new ride elements. If I'm bored of what my coaster has in terms of ride elements I always make sure I've covered everything by consulting a list of different ride elements.
If you want the general list though I would say a good hyper would have at least some of the following:
- Camelback/Airtime hills
- Top hat hills
- Helixes
- Sweeping turns
- Overbanked turns
- Large drops
- Headchopper/footchoppers
- Inclined loops and what I like to call Hourglasses (2 steep helixes wrapped around each other in a figure of 8)
- Tunnels/scenary interaction
- Terrain interaction
- Path interaction
- Coaster interaction - either with itself or with other rollercoasters
Another way to deal with this is to elevate the station, this also means you can create some nice path or coaster interaction by putting things underneath the station platform itself.
Generally speaking whenever I build a hypercoaster I take a look at coasters like Nitro, Goliath, Millennium force, Steel Dragon 2000, Intimidator 305, Fury 325 (The last 4 of those are giga coasters but same sort of idea) etc. They all have tonnes of airtime, overbanked turns, large sweeping drops and fast, wide and highly banked turns.
Quite often it's nice to perhaps have some interaction with terrain, paths and scenery as well but I understand you're looking for feedback primarily on the layout right now.
The thing about hypers is there are lots of things you can't do so go wild with what you can do and don't be afraid to experiment with new ride elements. If I'm bored of what my coaster has in terms of ride elements I always make sure I've covered everything by consulting a list of different ride elements.
If you want the general list though I would say a good hyper would have at least some of the following:
- Camelback/Airtime hills
- Top hat hills
- Helixes
- Sweeping turns
- Overbanked turns
- Large drops
- Headchopper/footchoppers
- Inclined loops and what I like to call Hourglasses (2 steep helixes wrapped around each other in a figure of 8)
- Tunnels/scenary interaction
- Terrain interaction
- Path interaction
- Coaster interaction - either with itself or with other rollercoasters
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I'll go through this video sequentially.
First thing is your chain lift speed is very high but is consistent with a cable lift - which is ok. It's a shame this game doesn't support cable lifts but there you go we have to improvise. The first drop should be steeper imo as this would generate a greater positive vertical G-force at the bottom and also more speed although as I'll explain later on this isn't always a good thing.
Nice head chopper on the way up the first hill but be careful it's not too close to your riders heads - this game's collision detection isn't the greatest thing ever, I've been caught out a few times by the odd thing being too close for comfort and having to change ride layouts. It's hard to say whether it's too close or not it would be easier to see it in game if you watch your coaster from the "interest" view that faces backwards towards the front seats. Bare in mind as well that guests will stick their arms in the air and test dummies won't so allow a bit of room. If you want a good POV for headchoppers then there is an "interest" camera that literally sits on top of the seats. I think it's called looking forward but I can't remember - anyway go into that view and as you get to a headchopper rotate your camera to face up and you'll soon find out whether you still have your head/arms or not.
The first hill is too low in my opinion - you'll probably get away with it but generally speaking going over the top of a hill too fast is really bad. If you do this then your riders will experience negative g-forces that are too high (anything more than 2g for more than a second is dangerous but occasional spikes of less than 3g are ok in moderation e.g. on skyrush). Excessive negative g-forces are by far the most dangerous kind of force on a rollercoaster and will cause some very nasty and potentially life-threatening injuries such as red-out & G-LOC as blood is forced into your head.
Nice sweeping dive on the next drop however watch your banking - you're going too fast round this bend in my opinion so you'll need to bank it pretty steep it gets worse at the bottom as there is no banking at all if anything the banking should be steeper at the bottom rather than the opposite way round otherwise your riders will be quite uncomfortable from all the lateral g-forces
If you pause at 34 seconds - that track is way too close for my liking as you come round the bend. If I stuck my arm out I would lose it and in fact it looks like the train may even be clipping through that piece of track (told you this game's collision detection is wonderful).
Next turn is nicely banked but unfortunately the hill after that has a really nasty transition because:
a) That hill is way too fast and thus dangerous from the negative gs anyway
b) The distance over which the track levels out from the banking is too short so the train snaps back very quickly which would be quite uncomfortable.
The next hill is also taken too fast and the drop afterwards needs more banking.
The hill afterwards is taken a tad too fast but is much more in-line with what is reasonable. The drop turn needs more banking - this game's audio design is amazing so you can use that to aid you. That metal grating sound you hear is indicating that there are high lateral g-forces because it's the sound of the guide wheels grinding against the track is it goes round the bend - if you hear that it needs to be banked more or taken slower.
Nice tunnels
However the head chopper in the second tunnel would kill you - way too close Turn after that needs a tad more banking but it's ok. The hill afterwards needs to be higher - you're cresting that mini hill at easily 50-60 mph. The hill after that is also taken too fast.
The turn after that is nicely banked (no grinding noise = good) and the terrain interaction is nice.
Bit of a wobble in the track at about 1:04 where you hit the bottom of that dip and then go up - might wanna go over that with the smooth tool or change the banking manually if that doesn't fix it. Sometimes the smooth tool makes things worse.
Nicely banked turn at the end and brake run is fine.
So in conclusion:
- Watch your speed especially when cresting a hill, I usually aimed for between 10-20 mph in RCT2 depending on how sharp the top of the hill is.
- Bank your turns more and when going down a turning drop bank the track more as you go down
- If you train is going fast and you want to level your track out from where it's banked use max length track so your train doesn't snap suddenly
- Headchoppers are fine but please none that are within touching distance - I quite like my appendages where they are
The other thing I would say is your ride is very short for a hypercoaster. Most hypercoasters I know of are in the 2:30 - 3:30 range - I think your ride is very short because it's very quick all the way through and doesn't have any mid course brake runs (which if you're going for realism it should) so to be honest you could lower your first drop and 90% of these problems will be fixed.
If you need a guide as to how fast you should let a train go over the top of a hill then the best advice I can give you is watch POVs of famous hypers and gigas on youtube. Bear in mind though that even real coasters (e.g. nitro) really push the boundaries of what is considered safe in terms of negative gs.
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I just came across this. This is a really nice example of a classic B&M hyper/giga coaster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-WVuOkRtFg
Nice smooth transitions between turns and straight sections, hills that are taken first but aren't very sharp at the top, plenty of airtime and overbanked turns although I think it's a little on the short side and it has no mid course brake run but hey each to their own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-WVuOkRtFg
Nice smooth transitions between turns and straight sections, hills that are taken first but aren't very sharp at the top, plenty of airtime and overbanked turns although I think it's a little on the short side and it has no mid course brake run but hey each to their own.
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Really appreciate the help, looks like I have a pretty good basic layout, just needs a lot of tweaking. I will post a new video after I try to refine it further.
Here is the 3rd try:
[video=youtube;d9Db66DK6VQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Db66DK6VQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]
Here is the 3rd try:
[video=youtube;d9Db66DK6VQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Db66DK6VQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]
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Much better. Very fluid transitions, keeps it's speed nicely throughout the layout and has plenty of airtime and positive/negative g-forces without being excessive. Those helixes are really good by the way but they're a bit wobbly, not sure how to describe it but watch the video carefully and focus on the track or the train and you should see what I mean. Just a few things:
The hill at around 43 seconds in should be a smooth curve, having that flat top on it is a bit weird and increases the negative gs. The only time I would level a hill like that is if I'm entering into a mid course brake run which your coaster is lacking. Your other hills are really nicely shaped hyperbolic hills like real hypercoasters so stick to that - that kind of shape is universally used (see images below) because it spreads the negative force out maximising airtime while also providing a smoother transition and thus less sharp spikes in negative g-forces
Millennium force:
Steel Dragon 2000:
Nitro:
From 1:20 (i.e. the brake) is where things need work. Generally the ending is disappointing since you use a brake which is too short, in a strange place and I think it's unnecessary given how well banked the next curve is. What would be better is to remove the brake, smooth the hill out and then do something with all this excess speed. Remember that most modern hyper/giga coasters are more than 3 mins long and even shorter ones like Millenium force are over 2 mins so don't be afraid to push the boundaries a bit. It's not like it's a family coaster or something like that. My suggestions would be:
- A hammerhead turn into a helix
- Just a helix or an hourglass
- A series of small camelback hills (but keep the parabolic shape) this is something steel dragon 2000 does so look at that to see what I mean.
- A series of sharp turns although you've done a lot of this already may be time for something else
- Anything else you want, remember the list of ride elements I posted before.
Also you should always have a brake run before a station - in real rollercoasters the final brake run serves as a block brake section (tops of lift hills can also serve this purpose). Your rollercoaster is also entering the station way too fast in my opinion - you should aim for the station brakes to not have to do any extra braking whatsoever. Remember putting brakes on a shallow drop is not only possible in real life but is generally quite common because cars can use gravity to roll into the station and don't require any drive tires.
Your ride actually inspired me to make my own B&M hypercoaster last night but I dunno if I wanna post it I'm a bit shy [knockout]
Hope that was helpful - any questions you have let me know.
The hill at around 43 seconds in should be a smooth curve, having that flat top on it is a bit weird and increases the negative gs. The only time I would level a hill like that is if I'm entering into a mid course brake run which your coaster is lacking. Your other hills are really nicely shaped hyperbolic hills like real hypercoasters so stick to that - that kind of shape is universally used (see images below) because it spreads the negative force out maximising airtime while also providing a smoother transition and thus less sharp spikes in negative g-forces
Millennium force:
Steel Dragon 2000:
Nitro:
From 1:20 (i.e. the brake) is where things need work. Generally the ending is disappointing since you use a brake which is too short, in a strange place and I think it's unnecessary given how well banked the next curve is. What would be better is to remove the brake, smooth the hill out and then do something with all this excess speed. Remember that most modern hyper/giga coasters are more than 3 mins long and even shorter ones like Millenium force are over 2 mins so don't be afraid to push the boundaries a bit. It's not like it's a family coaster or something like that. My suggestions would be:
- A hammerhead turn into a helix
- Just a helix or an hourglass
- A series of small camelback hills (but keep the parabolic shape) this is something steel dragon 2000 does so look at that to see what I mean.
- A series of sharp turns although you've done a lot of this already may be time for something else
- Anything else you want, remember the list of ride elements I posted before.
Also you should always have a brake run before a station - in real rollercoasters the final brake run serves as a block brake section (tops of lift hills can also serve this purpose). Your rollercoaster is also entering the station way too fast in my opinion - you should aim for the station brakes to not have to do any extra braking whatsoever. Remember putting brakes on a shallow drop is not only possible in real life but is generally quite common because cars can use gravity to roll into the station and don't require any drive tires.
Your ride actually inspired me to make my own B&M hypercoaster last night but I dunno if I wanna post it I'm a bit shy [knockout]
Hope that was helpful - any questions you have let me know.
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Bit too much wheel grinding going on at 1:06 and again on the next corner. Transitions at the top of the hill are a bit wonky at 0:33, 1:05 and especially 1:18 where there is kind of a dip at the top as well as a very abrupt change of banking. Also you need to turn down the final brake run deaccceleration values A LOT because that train is crawling into the station right now. I aim to make it so that it reaches it's target speed at either the last or penultimate brake. Also I know I said brake runs can be downhill but I ought to say that they don't have to be - some of mine aren't so maybe turn that final turn into a drop since it's moving kind of slowly? Up to you really it's just personal preference at this point. You should definitely try and get that brake run straighter though - easiest way to do that is to build the brake run backwards from the station and then connect the track together with auto-complete or preferably the auto-connecting button that appears on the track itself.
Also what happened to the tunnels?
At this point I think it's mainly small things now - you've got your layout pretty down now I think it's just a case of themeing it now which I wish I could help you with but I'm terrible at that [blah]
I sort of wish more people had given you feedback though I wouldn't say I'm an expert on these matters really but hopefully the advice I've given you is sound.
Also what happened to the tunnels?
At this point I think it's mainly small things now - you've got your layout pretty down now I think it's just a case of themeing it now which I wish I could help you with but I'm terrible at that [blah]
I sort of wish more people had given you feedback though I wouldn't say I'm an expert on these matters really but hopefully the advice I've given you is sound.
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Wow, how do you learn all that??? serously I have no idea where I can learn or at least reed something about it
I don't understand what you mean, which part of my quote are you referring to?
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I do appreciate all that you've helped me with. The wheel grinding and wonky transitions I think were caused by the smooth tool, I'll try to rework that. And, Now on to working thre terrain. I know one thing though, this layout practically fills the entire map, [haha].
No problem I just hope what I'm saying is right lol
Yeah the smooth tool is very much a double edged sword. It's great for very specific things like smoothing out turns/drops and sections of track which aren't too complicated but it really REALLY struggles with custom inversions, steep turning drops and steeply banked sharp turns. It has this nasty habit of making already very tight turns even tighter - I have no idea how attempting to murder my guests with even more lateral g-forces is making the ride smoother but eh...
It's a hypercoaster - I'd be worried if it didn't lol, aren't you using the flat sandbox map though? That thing is huge.
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So generally speaking when making a realistic hyper you will want to look at what the companies that produce hypers usually come up with. They each have very different types of layouts that they usually use.
The best known companies for hypers are probably
Intamin
Bolliger & Mabillard
Arrow
Morgan Manufacturing
Giovanola
Today parks almost only build Intamin and Bolliger & Mabillard hypers anymore. They're the most fun to ride out of those as well.
One thing you should probably improve in your layouts is that yours are not compact at all. What I mean is not really about squeezing them into a tight square-ish area but that many big coasters follow something that's called an out&back layout instead of being spread over a random large area. Kind of like what you can see in this woodie http://s207.photobucket.com/user/angryemobeaver/media/Screamer-080717015059000.jpg.html where it goes until a turnaround and then goes back to the station close to the track towards that turnaround.
That's what most B&M hypers are like until today. Intamin is a bit more wild and they do some crazy stuff in between. B&M mostly gives you very samey but nonetheless extremely smooth rides. They mostly have a very tall lift, some camelback hills, a turnaround, a mid course break, and some more hills. Intamin on the other hand try new layouts at times and recently have moved to overbanked curves, extreme air time, and an extremely high average speed with many curves close to the ground.
You should study some B&M and Intamin hypers. They're the best companies for them today. For study purposes www.rcdb.com (rollercoaster data base) is the best site there is as it lists all the rollercoasters and has photos of them as well. The coaster track you're using here seems to be Arrow or Morgan though (check out Magnum XL 200 or PepsI Max Big One)
for Intamin check out:
Expedition GeForce
Millenium Force
Intimidator 305
Goliath (Walibi World)
Thunder Dolphin
for B&M check out
Diamondback
Nitro
Goliath (La Ronde)
Silver Star
Appollo's Chariot
Leviathan
Shambhala
The best known companies for hypers are probably
Intamin
Bolliger & Mabillard
Arrow
Morgan Manufacturing
Giovanola
Today parks almost only build Intamin and Bolliger & Mabillard hypers anymore. They're the most fun to ride out of those as well.
One thing you should probably improve in your layouts is that yours are not compact at all. What I mean is not really about squeezing them into a tight square-ish area but that many big coasters follow something that's called an out&back layout instead of being spread over a random large area. Kind of like what you can see in this woodie http://s207.photobucket.com/user/angryemobeaver/media/Screamer-080717015059000.jpg.html where it goes until a turnaround and then goes back to the station close to the track towards that turnaround.
That's what most B&M hypers are like until today. Intamin is a bit more wild and they do some crazy stuff in between. B&M mostly gives you very samey but nonetheless extremely smooth rides. They mostly have a very tall lift, some camelback hills, a turnaround, a mid course break, and some more hills. Intamin on the other hand try new layouts at times and recently have moved to overbanked curves, extreme air time, and an extremely high average speed with many curves close to the ground.
You should study some B&M and Intamin hypers. They're the best companies for them today. For study purposes www.rcdb.com (rollercoaster data base) is the best site there is as it lists all the rollercoasters and has photos of them as well. The coaster track you're using here seems to be Arrow or Morgan though (check out Magnum XL 200 or PepsI Max Big One)
for Intamin check out:
Expedition GeForce
Millenium Force
Intimidator 305
Goliath (Walibi World)
Thunder Dolphin
for B&M check out
Diamondback
Nitro
Goliath (La Ronde)
Silver Star
Appollo's Chariot
Leviathan
Shambhala
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example of a typical B&M layout
http://www.coaster-net.com/pics/laronde/goliathart.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Fury_325_Layout_Rendering.jpg
http://top10listsnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Silver-Star-Roller-Coaster.jpg
example of a typical Intamin layout
http://www.thecoastercritic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/intimidator-layout.png
http://coastersandmore.de/rides/supermanrideofsteel/layout_superman.gif
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b3/45/7e/b3457e29f88719e531954791c192a8b0.jpg
example of a typical morgan layout
http://icdn7.digitaltrends.com/image/steeldragon2-720x480-c.jpg
http://www.coaster-net.com/pics/laronde/goliathart.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Fury_325_Layout_Rendering.jpg
http://top10listsnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Silver-Star-Roller-Coaster.jpg
example of a typical Intamin layout
http://www.thecoastercritic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/intimidator-layout.png
http://coastersandmore.de/rides/supermanrideofsteel/layout_superman.gif
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b3/45/7e/b3457e29f88719e531954791c192a8b0.jpg
example of a typical morgan layout
http://icdn7.digitaltrends.com/image/steeldragon2-720x480-c.jpg
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