Hi FD, Any plans to check the game breaking Submit and Highwake issue? ( Its basically an exploit )

Majinvash · Dec 7, 2015

Hi

I understand its currently "working as intended" but it needs looking at.

It makes a mockery of mass-lock.

If you can leave any situation ( bar being in an belt ring ) at any time, in about 15 seconds. ( Anyone who knows the exact charge time please correct me). Why have mass lock at all?

It makes pirating RP virtually impossible against anyone who knows this exploit.
We simply don't have the time to put any RP in before, oh wait he's HW'd out. Which leads to shoot first in the hope to disable drives/fsd.

It makes it impossible for bounty hunters to effectively stop naughty pirates.
Oh no, i'm in Eravate popping noobs in my Battle Conda, I see a wing of Condas who I know are out to stop me, but I don't care. I have the Braben Freedom drive option.

This in turn leads to an increase in "unwanted player interaction resulted deaths" because no one can stop murders.

So before everyone cries "oh but if it was removed it would increase griefing", you are wrong.
Having it removed would actually greatly reduce griefing, as the goodies would be able to stop the baddies.

Everyone wants tougher penalties for crime. I think a big risk of being destroyed by a player defence force, would be a huge step forwards.

So FD, got any plans to change this?

Its the lack of HW that made the Hutton Blockade such an event, a HW escape meant a 2hr return trip. ( Truckers and Code are friends before you all scream about griefing )

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Hurricane Moon · Dec 7, 2015

ok wheres the real Majinvash?......lol

Hatchepsut · Dec 7, 2015

Are you for real?
We have spent ages in several threads explaining to new players and more experienced players that they only died because they neglected to HW out of a bad situation.
Now we want to remove that option completely?

ShadowWolf Kell · Dec 7, 2015

I don't think anyone's going to be able to submit and high wake in an atmosphere. Imagine a planetary CG blockade near the mass lock zone and Cutters around to make sure everyone who goes past stays put for "servicing."

Planets are going to become prime ambush points, unless they change something. I bet Power Play will also start taking a major shift towards planetary events as well which means it'll get a whole lot more dangerous.

Kazacy · Dec 7, 2015

OP it's unfortunately right. A few hours after the 1.3 patch i managed to buy an Imperial Courier. After that i never ever died in this game (yay insane buffer shield). Don't get me wrong, but i really miss from EVE online the warp scrambler/disruptor and stasis webifier.
My point is, in this game if you know what to do, it's almost impossible to die.

Majinvash · Dec 7, 2015

Hatchepsut said:
Are you for real?
We have spent ages in several threads explaining to new players and more experienced players that they only died because they neglected to HW out of a bad situation.
Now we want to remove that option completely?

Yes.

How many more ways do you want to add to a game that gives players a get out of free card in any situation?

15 seconds log out
FD not doing a thing about combat logging
HW to freedom

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

sp0q · Dec 7, 2015

Kazacy said:
OP it's unfortunately right. A few hours after the 1.3 patch i managed to buy an Imperial Courier. After that i never ever died in this game (yay insane buffer shield). Don't get me wrong, but i really miss from EVE online the warp scrambler/disruptor and stasis webifier.
My point is, in this game if you know what to do, it's almost impossible to die.

Aye, one really needs to be jumped by a wing with enough alpha strike to evaporate you almost instantly. Otherwise you are out in no time. Not to mention observing the radar - that way you won't get interdicted at all : P

ErichZann · Dec 7, 2015

Majinvash said:
Majinvash
The Voice of Open

How can we take your threads seriously before you remove that "The Voice of Open"? What do you even mean by that?

YoBuck · Dec 7, 2015

Agree with Majin. Been saying it's borderline exploit for ages. That said open piracy is as good as dead anyway.

Kazacy · Dec 7, 2015

sp0q said:
Aye, one really needs to be jumped by a wing with enough alpha strike to evaporate you almost instantly. Otherwise you are out in no time. Not to mention observing the radar - that way you won't get interdicted at all : P

Right. My problem is after i learned how to survive in almost every encounter, at first i was very happy. Now i am just bored, lucky for my i don't have time for playing the game, only to post on the forums thanks to my employer

Four Muffins · Dec 7, 2015

Majinvash said:
This in turn leads to an increase in "unwanted player interaction resulted deaths" because no one can stop murders.

So before everyone cries "oh but if it was removed it would increase griefing", you are wrong.
Having it removed would actually greatly reduce griefing, as the goodies would be able to stop the baddies.

Everyone wants tougher penalties for crime. I think a big risk of being destroyed by a player defence force, would be a huge step forwards.

So FD, got any plans to change this?

Its the lack of HW that made the Hutton Blockade such an event, a HW escape meant a 2hr return trip. ( Truckers and Code are friends before you all scream about griefing )

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

As a noob, I feel quite well qualified to comment on this section. My interactions with players are 90% bad. I see only the same dozen or so people, and most of them try kill me as soon as they see me. I'd swear these same four winged-up gankers with only railguns are stalking me, but as far as I know there's no way to track a ship without a wake. If I couldn't shift to another system, the game would be unplayable. Or, there would be no game to play, just a series of pretty explosions.

I discovered the high wake after having saved up $10m, cruising around in my shiny new maxed out Courier, bounty hunting away. I lost 8 million of it in rebuys, getting ambushed shifting away from stations on the day I got it, and now it's back to boring, tedious grinding to get back lost progress. It stings even more that I've got that much further to go to see a Clipper. Thankfully, I discovered the high wake escape, and now there's a game again. I enjoy getting ambushed and killed in surprise attacks, it's fun. The adrenaline rush from taking out an interdicting CMDR in a FAS with 1% hull remaining is awesome. Even the 'whoa holy crap' as I'm inching through the mailslot is awesome. I don't like getting constantly slaughtered by appendages and I don't want to have to stop using a thing I paid for because of griefers getting a free ticket to kill anyone they want.

The part about the good guys... There a 400 billion systems. I don't think they'll find me in time. =]

Theodrid · Dec 7, 2015

Puddingcake said:
As a noob, I feel quite well qualified to comment on this section. My interactions with players are almost universally bad. I see only the same dozen or so people, and most of them try kill me as soon as they see me. I'd swear these same four winged-up gankers with only railguns are stalking me, but as far as I know there's no way to track a ship without a wake. If I couldn't shift to another system, the game would be unplayable. Or, there would be no game to play, just a series of pretty explosions.

The part about the good guys... There a 400 billion systems. I don't think they'll find me in time. =]

Indeed,

Sorry Maji, your pretence that bounty hunters will suddenly have more capability to stop murders because of this is laughable, be honest here, this is solely about piracy and you getting your jollies with a much reduced chance of escape for your taget(s), leave the weak bounty hunting justification out of it.

The Chairmaker · Dec 7, 2015

There is a partial solution it is called a Wake scanner, you follow them into Hyperspace and keep pulling them out again till they submit or die.

If your ship doesn't have the range to follow their jumps, then maybe your pirating in the wrong ship, or need to adapt your pirate ship to allow it to jump further.

If done right this should produce epic pirating actions through multiple systems, predator and prey in a tussle for the goods.

Instead what happens now is pirates interdict in full wings of Clippers, which is a huge case of overkill in many cases, then moan when people high wake out.

What else are they supposed to do other than use their only possible means of escape?

Jukelo · Dec 7, 2015

Hatchepsut said:
Are you for real?
We have spent ages in several threads explaining to new players and more experienced players that they only died because they neglected to HW out of a bad situation.
Now we want to remove that option completely?

And that is true, if they don't take advantage of every option at their disposal it's their damn fault.
But it doesn't mean that these options are any good from a gameplay perspective. High-waking is near unpreventable unless you go weapons hot from the get go.

Many players around here complain about the rampant pew-pew mentality among pirates and they are quick to blame 'console kids' and 'younger generations', but completely ignore the fact that the game actively punishes any attempt at solving a situation via other means. As Majinwash perfectly explained, you have about 15s to get anything done before the target runs away or logs out and there is little you can do about it. In this situation you often can't afford to be subtle because being subtle requires more time than that. Heck, being not-so-subtle is often not enough even in 15s..

The Chairmaker said:
There is a partial solution it is called a Wake scanner, you follow them into Hyperspace and keep pulling them out again till they submit or die.

The moment they're out of trouble they drop from supercruise (and since you're not yet in the system their low wake doesn't register on your client) or switch to solo.

tafkabb · Dec 7, 2015

Kazacy said:
in this game if you know what to do, it's almost impossible to die.

That's true of any game. That's also the benefit of learning stuff.
It doesn't help someone who needs to get to a particular destination though. They'll still have to high-wake in again.

GorgonTMP · Dec 7, 2015

I agree.

Mephane · Dec 7, 2015

How altruistic, the voice of hubris wants bounty hunters to be better able to hunt down PvP pirates. Yeah right. Totally.

Are you (the Code as a whole) also going to stop using Clippers as pirate ships then? Because, hey, otherwise you could use the boost exploit to get away from bounty hunters that would interdict and mass-lock you, and they would have no chance of ever killing you. Unless they also fly a Clipper. I guess that is the intended, ultimate status quo? Pirate Clippers vs bounty hunter Clippers. Clippers all the way down. How exciting.

Majinvash · Dec 7, 2015

Theodrid said:
Indeed,

Sorry Maji, your pretence that bounty hunters will suddenly have more capability to stop murders because of this is laughable, be honest here, this is solely about piracy and you getting your jollies with a much reduced chance of escape for your taget(s), leave the weak bounty hunting justification out of it.

Put the salt shaker down.

Rather than start spouting bile, think.

If you want to reduce the pirated rain of terror you need to be able to stop them, currently I can jump in a system get as many jollies as I want and then if all of the galaxies bounty hunters turn up to stop me. I don't care because I can escape ANY situation.

I just need to be able to survive for about 25 seconds after an interdiction. EASY!

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Kerrash · Dec 7, 2015

Majinvash said:
...
FD not doing a thing about combat logging...

As you don't have evidence to support this opinion I would suggest you don't present it as if it is a fact.

Thank you.

Jukelo · Dec 7, 2015

Mephane said:
How altruistic, the voice of hubris wants bounty hunters to be better able to hunt down PvP pirates. Yeah right. Totally.

Are you (the Code as a whole) also going to stop using Clippers as pirate ships then? Because, hey, otherwise you could use the boost exploit to get away from bounty hunters that would interdict and mass-lock you, and they would have no chance of ever killing you. Unless they also fly a Clipper. I guess that is the intended, ultimate status quo? Pirate Clippers vs bounty hunter Clippers. Clippers all the way down. How exciting.

Nothing stops you from making further suggestions to allow BHers to chase after pirates better. A rework of mass disruption maybe, or some more active solution to disrupt a ship's FSD that maybe would allow a FDL to stop a clipper from escaping?