PvP "High Noon with the Sheriff" - deZpe [ROA] vs Tomski [BBFA]

Hello CMDRs!

CMDR Tomski, boss of the lawful Blood Brothers from Alrai [BBFA], accepted my challenge for a duel until the very end. So we met in some backwater system. The rest is history.

Now, this is a real classic: FDL vs FDL. But one with as much shield energy as possible and the other a standard triple booster META build. Honestly one of the most "glorious" fights I ever had.

Enjoy!

[video=youtube_share;NSN3-lDHX90]https://youtu.be/NSN3-lDHX90[/video]

Thanks for accepting the challenge and showing up CMDR!
 
Oooh! Enjoyed!

Nice text, excellent music, but veeery terrible rail aim as usuall (joking man :))

ABout prisma MJ stack versus biw lw fdl.... well.... if oponent is great pilot and uses standard meta weapons (PAs, rails), then shield tanking could work against lw fdl builds. It looks he had paper armor, but with 3700MJ fdl 6 booster stack fdl still can have 2-2.5k armor (hd or lw) and still agile enough.

You planted him so so fast, it was really nice :)


ps: all the time i see pvp vids with head tracking or VR, i am thinking how should I adjust my ship choice, weapons, flying, etc., because on my 17" laptop i usually even cant see properly enemy ship, where it is heading, if boosting etc.
 
Oooh! Enjoyed!

Nice text, excellent music, but veeery terrible rail aim as usuall (joking man :))

ABout prisma MJ stack versus biw lw fdl.... well.... if oponent is great pilot and uses standard meta weapons (PAs, rails), then shield tanking could work against lw fdl builds. It looks he had paper armor, but with 3700MJ fdl 6 booster stack fdl still can have 2-2.5k armor (hd or lw) and still agile enough.

You planted him so so fast, it was really nice :)


ps: all the time i see pvp vids with head tracking or VR, i am thinking how should I adjust my ship choice, weapons, flying, etc., because on my 17" laptop i usually even cant see properly enemy ship, where it is heading, if boosting etc.

Thanks! :D

Yes those builds are very powerful. Even with a thermal reactive armor you have around 2k hull and boost to about 550 m/s which is fast enough. Thank god he was not really dodging around in FA OFF, so I could land those shots consistently. And he missed ramming me too. That could have been a lot tougher for me!

Anyway, glad you liked the vid. As long as some people give some thumbs up, i will also enjoy making stuff like this.
 
Fights like this are prime examples of why I haven't bothered to really dust off my FDL in over a year. Increasing vessel velocities (especially relative to acceleration) and increasing weapon ranges really aren't conducive to the sort of combat I prefer. High speed passes combined with dramatically increased average engagement distances significantly reduce the value of maneuver relative to raw rotational speed and aim precision. Weapons with minimal or non-existant damage drop off also trivialize distance management. All in all, it's a wildly different sort of contest than it used to be that leaves less room for defying established conventions than before.

I was rather surprised to see your opponent stopped in his tracks by PP damage. If it was an overcharged PP, I'd have expected there to be enough power for only a five second thruster malfunction once the PP hit zero (which happened at 9:42, meaning he should have been moving again at 9:47). If it were an armored PP, it would have taken more than three volleys to destroy the plant. Was he running a severely undersized and/or low emissions plant, did he not setup power priorities, or did he just give up?

As for the comments regarding boosters, different classes of boosters would need different power consumption ratios, meaning that the multiplier to shield boost from engineering would need to be scaled as well to discourage people from just stacking lower rated boosters to mitigate any power consumption issues. I think a better change would be the one that was tested in the 2.3.10(?) Beta; where after a 60% increase to shield boost there would be diminishing returns...which severely limited the utility of heavy booster stacking.

Of course, I feel the downsides to no shield focused setups go far beyond that. The half degree of auto aim fixed weapons get, the existence of long range rails, the inability to obfuscate the specific location of core modules, even the relative ease of aiming with relative mouse...all contribute to small and medium combat vessels being extremely vulnerable to power plant sniping, especially if they cannot afford to run integrity focused setups due to mass or power issues.
 
Thanks for your comment.

I have never enjoyed those old times (before engineering), where a lot of things were (apparently) better. Growing up with charge enhanced distributors and dirty drives, I became an FA OFF boost sperg. I can agree that those slower fights probably require a more tactical flying style and that would suit many CMDRs better. But I must disagree on the trivialized distance management, because there is a lot more to it than damage drop off, of course.

Why he stopped fighting I don't really know. I presume he just gave up or his power priorities were wrong. With his six boosters and Guardian tech he needs to go overcharged and he apparently did not install any MRPs. And I also was extremely lucky with those shots. I only carry one superpen on my ship and the breach chance at 90% hull is about 40%. So that's an overall chance of 6.4% for that to happen.

The idea with the power draw relative to the shield boost is not mine originally. But it made a lot of sense to me when I heard it. From a gameplay AND technical perspective. It should consider the Megajoules added to the shield. So it would not matter whether you stacked A or E boosters. But honestly, I don't really care about the details here. I definately would be fine with the 60% cap from boosters. Because, let's be honest, we can't really talk about "boosting" the shield anymore. The boosters ARE the shield.

https://imgur.com/Tj3eBGY

You raised some interesting points in your last section there. But I think it does not require the big nerf bat to balance module sniping. It needs to be harder or less successful the farther you are from your target. At the moment it is the opposite due to the microgimbal effect. A solution could be to decrease the breach chance from 3km onwards or to reduce the microgimbal effect. But IMO module sniping needs to remain a viable strategy during combat which rewards skillfull players.
 
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I have never enjoyed those old times (before engineering) where a lot of things were (apparently) better.

Some things were better, some worse. I do think a lot of people tend to look at the past through rose tinted glasses, but there is no denying that many of most common complaints with combat today didn't exist before Engineers. We got more customization options, but lost a lot of the more subtle aspects that defined the feel of the ships and, ironically enough, some practical variety as certain 'options' became essentially mandatory to stay competitive.

Growing up with charge enhanced distributors and dirty drives I became an FA OFF boost sperg.

Even I find myself falling into these sorts of patterns when I use PA and rails, though with less FA OFF (as I'm a HOTAS user and even with a good stick and solid sensitivity slopes it's hard for me to compete with relative mouse's ability to alternate from rapid manuvering to precise aim without flight assist stabilizing things). It's what the current game mechanisms incentivise and I can hardly fault anyone for doing what works.

But I must disagree on the trivialized distance management, because there is a lot more to it than damage drop off of course.

My complaint was an over simplification perhaps, but managing ones distance to target has become much more difficult and erratic, with generally greater ranges as a result. Longer range combat does reduce the importance of maneuver in fights, especially between vessels of similar performance, because there is less one can do to evade attacks or stay out of an opponent's cone of fire. This is more an issue related to thrusters (peak velcocities increasing faster than acceleration and linear increases to rotational rates on top) and boost frequency than long range weapons, but long range weapons are a factor. IMO, we have a very poor situation when average initial encounter distance, typical sensor range, and weapon ranges are all too similar in most scenarios.

You raised some interesting points in your last section there. But I think it does not require the big nerf bat to balance module sniping. It needs to be harder or less successful the farther you are from your target. At the moment it is the opposite due to the microgimbal effect. A solution could be to decrease the breach chance from 3km onwards or to reduce the microgimbal effect. But IMO module sniping needs to remain a viable strategy during combat which rewards skillfull players.

I feel the ability to go after certain modules to achieve specific effects or gain victory without having to grind through all hull integrity adds a great deal of depth to the game. The issue I have is with the inversion of difficulty you mention, where hitting specific modules becomes easier with hitscan weapons at range, as well as the power plant nearly always being the obvious target on most setups.

Since hit scan weapons other than rails (lasers) tended to have both poor penetration depth, poor breach chance/damage, severe damage falloff, and were less effective against hulls in general, module sniping typically required close in use of projectile weapons. Gimbals were favored, but also had more downsides, relatively speaking (two chaff launchers were enough for a whole fight, and silent running could be maintained longer) and it took real ability to put stock velocity fixed cannon, PA, or MCs into a specific module. Before the ascendancy of rails (which came with their most recent ammunition buff and the extremely potent engineering effects), penetration depth mattered; with combat vessels tending to have their power plants in the back, they were often not the best target, at least in 1v1s. I used to favor attacks on the distributor against most federal ships for example, or on the life support module of those ships that had them placed near or immediately behind the cockpit as attacking them would usually result in a canopy breach. Sometimes it's an advantage that almost everyone immediately goes for the PP now, but such situations are more the exceptions that prove the rule.
 
peak velcocities increasing faster than acceleration and linear increases to rotational rates on top

I don't really get what you are saying here. Would you care to elaborate, please?

I used to favor attacks on the distributor against most federal ships for example, or on the life support module of those ships that had them placed near or immediately behind the cockpit as attacking them would usually result in a canopy breach. Sometimes it's an advantage that almost everyone immediately goes for the PP now, but such situations are more the exceptions that prove the rule.

It is still very much depending on the vessel and loadout when deciding which module to aim for first. And the distributor is still a good choice in hulltanks, as it often sits in the centre of the ship giving a good chance to hit multiple internal modules with a superpen. The powerplant was the obvious choice here, as I knew he must run an overcharged one with low integrity.
 
I don't really get what you are saying here. Would you care to elaborate, please?

Engineered thrusters have a higher acceleration, but there is an equal increase in peak velocity. This means that they don't reach (or come to a halt) from those peaks any faster, which means it's easier to overshoot, which in turn makes it harder to stay close to someone, typically resulting in increased engagement distances. Rotational performance also increases with drive multiplier. Greater range = smaller arc of movement a target is capable of covering vs. a greater rotational rate of the opponent. All of this means the sort of evasion that was par for the course before engineers, where one of the key challanges in combat was to stay out of the arc of fire of your opponent while keeping them inside yours can now only really be done against CMDRs with an enormous disparity in maneuverability, or via constant boosting (which has other issues).

Basically, almost anyone can point directly at almost anyone else a significant portion of the time. Wasn't always the case, and I personally don't consider the change a positive one.

It is still very much depending on the vessel and loadout when deciding which module to aim for first. And the distributor is still a good choice in hulltanks, as it often sits in the centre of the ship giving a good chance to hit multiple internal modules with a superpen. The powerplant was the obvious choice here, as I knew he must run an overcharged one with low integrity.

Both good points, though the considerations are a bit different with railguns. Without superpen/penetrator/high yield, you want to avoid interposing modules, because they will stop the shot...as will excess depth of ship in the way. Positioning is as important as targeting/aim when sniping with other weapons.
 
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