How could players be encouraged to put themselves into dangerous pvp scenarios, even when they don't have to?

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I don't know how often it was repeated and mentioned here. You can only optimize a cargo vessel for surviveability, not for winning or completing your desired cargo run. Perhaps someone can give me a solution I haven't found yet. Even with my engineered Krait Mk2 (FSD G5 shielded and Shieldgenerator and boosters also powered up) I can not reach the destination. At some point, I have to high-wake and start from the beginning. The only solution I have found till now, is to have a wing buddy that distract the attacker long enough, so he could not follow me again after lowwake.

It's nice that I can now survive every gank attempt (wich take me a lot if hours to grind that eng mat/data), but I still can't complete my runs alone. I have not always someone at hand, that's willing to sacrifice himself for me.

Time to learn placement.
So when you are at A and want to move to B, most players will follow the shortest way, ie flying in a "straight" line between these two points. So where is the obvious location for an aggressor to be? somewhere between A and B.. So your direct route will place you more or less infront of the attacker! And you end up with the repeated interdiction, fail to evade/submit, low wake, until you have to high wake. and what makes this even worse, is that you are getting puled back to the attacker...

so what it the solution to this then? is there any other way we can fly that could work better? yes there is... if you start off by flying 90% away from your destination, and then do a spiral "loop" to turn in so that you will arrive from the OTHER side of your destination. So yes, you will fly a longer distance, but if you choose a patch avoids flying past any other planets etc, you will fly faster, so the time lost is usually not that bad, but you will loose time. Now the aggressor, sitting between the A-B have to fly to you, and then get behind you, and since you will do a spiral way that is tighter at the end, the attacker have to fly longer to get behind you to be able to interdict you... So unless you make a mistake, like overshooting the destination, etc, then you will be able to avoid most people trying to interdict you. because now you would be wasting the attackers time, trying to attack you. And since there is no obvious best route that all players would take for this, then there would be no "best" location to be located at to interdict players.


And lets be hones here, this gets boring. and is yet another skill to learn.


Add to this how you can avoid the station slowdown, so you fly faster and then you make an emergency stop, just before the station, boost, boost, boost, untill you can low wake, for a couple of seconds to your destination, and even if an attacker jumps in on you, they will arrive where you where, and now have to chase you, and you are likely to be able to low wake, and then immediately exit at your destination. This does not works against NPC's, that always drops in on YOU.. regardless how far you have travelled from the original point.

So this what I learned from a friend, who have repeatedly visited CG in open in his shieldless Cutter employing these two tactics and he has yet to get blown up. This is greatly helped by having a fast ship like the Cutter. It still works for slow ships like Type-9, but you will from time to time get shoot at.



So for regular gameplay, this not offering any special, for some players, just avoiding the destruction is the reward, but for all the rest, it is just a waste of their play time.



The key factor here, is disparity between players and NPC attacking you.
IF security influenced the danger level of a system, and thus the payout. Then players could make conscious choices as that what kind of risk they are willing to take.


So if you want a laid back, hauling experience, play in high security systems, and if you want max challenge, then visit anarchy systems,where "rumour" about what you are hauling is faster than your travel. And this would work in all game modes.. Now notorious players should have a really hard time in high security systems and constantly be evading authorities in these high security systems, meaning, they cannot just "passively" wait for their next victim, like today. But this also opens up, an opportunity for another set of missions, taken in anarchy systems to do stuff in medium and high security systems, and get good pay for their higher risks... giving us a criminal career path.

So this lays the foundation for teaching players what systems are "safe", less safe, and unsafe. It also pushes criminal activities to the unsafe systems. Now hot spots like Engineers would not exist as they do today, most (all?) of engineers systems are high security. CG can be placed in any kind of system, and with that we get different danger levels.


So now we have introduced game mechanics, that works in all modes, introduces "danger", and players have their choice of what danger level they comfortably with, and with increased credit rewards, players are being tempted to accept those more lucrative, but more dangerous missions. So depending on where players are flying, they would most of the time be in a more suitable loadout for the expected danger level of the current mission, and this now makes the choice of game mode less important, as player can still control their own risk level by their choice of systems to visit...
And we can further change the risk


Think what this could mean for the mining meta, what if the best price to sell your your stuff was always in an anarchy system? Not only where you mine, but also where you sell you stuff...
 
so what it the solution to this then? is there any other way we can fly that could work better? yes there is... if you start off by flying 90% away from your destination, and then do a spiral "loop" to turn in so that you will arrive from the OTHER side of your destination. So yes, you will fly a longer distance, but if you choose a patch avoids flying past any other planets etc, you will fly faster, so the time lost is usually not that bad, but you will loose time. Now the aggressor, sitting between the A-B have to fly to you, and then get behind you, and since you will do a spiral way that is tighter at the end, the attacker have to fly longer to get behind you to be able to interdict you... So unless you make a mistake, like overshooting the destination, etc, then you will be able to avoid most people trying to interdict you. because now you would be wasting the attackers time, trying to attack you. And since there is no obvious best route that all players would take for this, then there would be no "best" location to be located at to interdict players.
Yes, thanks. I know this method and it worked for a very short period of time. Gankers learn also. They are no longer somewhere between A and B. They wait directly at A (the star). In 95% of ganking attempts I am interdicted imidiatly after arrival out of Hyperspace.
 
The key factor here, is disparity between players and NPC attacking you.
IF security influenced the danger level of a system, and thus the payout. Then players could make conscious choices as that what kind of risk they are willing to take.
Yep, totally agree. The game should give the player to make an informed choice between the high profit high danger trade route and the safe high volume route. I don’t see this atm. I’m talking purely from a pve game simulation point of view.
 
The feeling is reciprocal, I'm sure and that's why it's not a good idea to make anyone play something what they don't want. There is no way to magic player population out of a hat that simply isn't there.
Hopefully people are mature enough to pick the game mode that suits their preferences best. There's really nothing else to be done in the matter. 🤷‍♂️

... Or adjust their expectations and attitude according to the gamemode they picked.
 
Hopefully people are mature enough to pick the game mode that suits their preferences best. There's really nothing else to be done in the matter. 🤷‍♂️

... Or adjust their expectations and attitude according to the gamemode they picked.
That's really the best advice. I think it's what almost all of us do and it really solves all the problems.

This thread and others like it only exist because some players aren't happy with others' mode choices (as shown in the title). I wish we could get round to just dismissing this attitude as nonsense rather than dignifying it with such long threads.

Blaze your own trail. Play in the mode which gives you the game experience you find most enjoyable. Don't expect others to conform to your choices.
 
Feels like I'm selling the basic concept of multiplayer games here to people who are only interested in single player games.
I think you may have (accidentally?) identified a large part of the issue here.
I have posted many times about improving the C&P system and giving better incentives for pvp bounty hunting for example, but I think you are greatly exaggerating the the vast majority are gankers.
Exactly, I think at a minimum the C&P system needs an overhaul. It is far too punishing on trying to RP as a criminal (piracy and smuggling etc pay peanuts), yet being a murder hobo is largely free of consequence.

Also I did not mean that most people in open are gankers. I meant there are more gankers greifing than there are white knights white knighting. Even if the numbers were equal, the effect is the same since it is orders of magnitude easier for a ganker to find prey vs a white hat being able to stop them. Again, I think changes to the C&P system could have a positive effect
Unsurprisingly not all players are prepared to reduce the effectiveness of their ship for its intended role just to play among other players, especially when some of those players aren't much fun to play among.
This hits the nail on the head for me.
 
Yes, thanks. I know this method and it worked for a very short period of time. Gankers learn also. They are no longer somewhere between A and B. They wait directly at A (the star). In 95% of ganking attempts I am interdicted imidiatly after arrival out of Hyperspace.
I agree it is difficult to evade a wing that sits around a star.
I’ll just repeat yet again the same mantra: what is notoriety for? In a high sec system local security NPCs should be circling the star themselves and continuously interdicting notorious cmdrs. Gankers can’t gank if they are always being interdicted.
 
I agree it is difficult to evade a wing that sits around a star.
I’ll just repeat yet again the same mantra: what is notoriety for? In a high sec system local security NPCs should be circling the star themselves and continuously interdicting notorious cmdrs. Gankers can’t gank if they are always being interdicted.
Yes, almost everyone here agreed that there are significant flaws with the C+P system. An improvement here could help to bring more players to open.

Realisticly observed there is no chance to get rid of ganking, so there must happen some changes for victims that enable to "tolerate" a ganking attempt. There were some ideas and suggestions made here in this thread, but non of them will be implemented I suppose.
 
I agree it is difficult to evade a wing that sits around a star.
I’ll just repeat yet again the same mantra: what is notoriety for? In a high sec system local security NPCs should be circling the star themselves and continuously interdicting notorious cmdrs. Gankers can’t gank if they are always being interdicted.
Ridiculous if you believe some bots can fix what the game designers cant.
 
Yes, almost everyone here agreed that there are significant flaws with the C+P system. An improvement here could help to bring more players to open.

Realisticly observed there is no chance to get rid of ganking, so there must happen some changes for victims that enable to "tolerate" a ganking attempt. There were some ideas and suggestions made here in this thread, but non of them will be implemented I suppose.
The trouble is that the discussed changes would quickly get interpreted as attempts to combat ganking and nothing else, whereas I see it more as a realism thing. Personally I think ganking has its place, but only where the security is weak enough.
 
Personally I think ganking has its place, but only where the security is weak enough.
I have answered to this a lot of pages before. Of course this is a very controvers debate and the opinions differ depending on the preferred playstyle. For me, very personally, Ganking is immersion breaking at its highest level. As a RP Trader I can live with pirates, even with people that want to kill me because I support someone they are at war with. But my character can not believe that out of 100 CMDRs round about a third are maniacs and murderers that must have some psychological illness.
 
I have answered to this a lot of pages before. Of course this is a very controvers debate and the opinions differ depending on the preferred playstyle. For me, very personally, Ganking is immersion breaking at its highest level. As a RP Trader I can live with pirates, even with people that want to kill me because I support someone they are at war with. But my character can not believe that out of 100 CMDRs round about a third are maniacs and murderers that must have some psychological illness.
Yeah, I find it hard to believe some human space empire would erect itself and promote slavery. Though I'm not so sure anymore.
 
The key factor here, is disparity between players and NPC attacking you.
IF security influenced the danger level of a system, and thus the payout. Then players could make conscious choices as that what kind of risk they are willing to take.


So if you want a laid back, hauling experience, play in high security systems, and if you want max challenge, then visit anarchy systems,where "rumour" about what you are hauling is faster than your travel. And this would work in all game modes.. Now notorious players should have a really hard time in high security systems and constantly be evading authorities in these high security systems, meaning, they cannot just "passively" wait for their next victim, like today. But this also opens up, an opportunity for another set of missions, taken in anarchy systems to do stuff in medium and high security systems, and get good pay for their higher risks... giving us a criminal career path.

So this lays the foundation for teaching players what systems are "safe", less safe, and unsafe. It also pushes criminal activities to the unsafe systems. Now hot spots like Engineers would not exist as they do today, most (all?) of engineers systems are high security. CG can be placed in any kind of system, and with that we get different danger levels.


So now we have introduced game mechanics, that works in all modes, introduces "danger", and players have their choice of what danger level they comfortably with, and with increased credit rewards, players are being tempted to accept those more lucrative, but more dangerous missions. So depending on where players are flying, they would most of the time be in a more suitable loadout for the expected danger level of the current mission, and this now makes the choice of game mode less important, as player can still control their own risk level by their choice of systems to visit...
And we can further change the risk


Think what this could mean for the mining meta, what if the best price to sell your your stuff was always in an anarchy system? Not only where you mine, but also where you sell you stuff...
The thing about linking some kind of actual "danger level" with security level is that not only does the BGS have a tangible effect on players, and players can in turn affect it. Suddenly it creates a role something like the fuel rats or the hull seals (except more double-edged). Task forces keeping the engineering systems high sec, PvE criminals keeping backwater systems low sec to create a white knuckle money train, etc.

I'd be tempted to create a separate slider altogether for danger, alongside security. Danger is a question of who's there with nefarious purpose, security is a matter of what the NPC response is. The two are likely linked though - increased security will diminish threat over time, increased threat will diminish security over time. So you'd get some systems where there's all out war law vs. lawless, others where nothing's much happening on either side. Rewards would be greatest where security is lowest and danger is highest. Security and danger could both be products of the BGS, and affectable by players.

EDIT: okay currently the security level of the system is hard to affect (see below). That said I might like it to be a little more maleable. Likewise this new "danger" level.
 
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I think you may have (accidentally?) identified a large part of the issue here.

The thread is (intended to be) about those who would consider doing more multi-player, adversarial stuff. It has been swamped by arguments over 'but what about those that are only interested in the non-adversarial and single plater aspects?

Well those people can just carry on as they currently are, only if a proposed change affects them (or players already doing multi-player, adversarial stuff) do they become relevant.

And my basic argument throughout this thread has been that no game changes are essential, fundamentally it can already be done if the desire it there (JFD).
 
The thread is (intended to be) about those who would consider doing more multi-player, adversarial stuff. It has been swamped by arguments over 'but what about those that are only interested in the non-adversarial and single plater aspects?
Fair enough! To this end, the thing that keeps coming up over and over again is the C&P system not being adequate in driving CMDRs towards meaningful interaction. I also think that a "solution" is in the C&P system. As seemingly no one really likes the current state of it, it is the perfect place to start.

Now I guess someone from the thread has to get a job at Fdev lol
 
Fair enough! To this end, the thing that keeps coming up over and over again is the C&P system not being adequate in driving CMDRs towards meaningful interaction. I also think that a "solution" is in the C&P system. As seemingly no one really likes the current state of it, it is the perfect place to start.

Now I guess someone from the thread has to get a job at Fdev lol

There have been some pretty good suggestions, there have also been less practical but more honest suggestions where contributors have stated what changes would be required for them to consider changing how they play.

That a proposal has a significant downside to another (potentially currently happy) sub-set of the playerbase doesn't make it off topic, just inconsiderate.
 
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