how does ED compare to SC ?

Brrr.. the whole faux-Showbiz format of this video makes me cringe. Sorry, nothing more perceptive to add than that. Please FD don't go down this route.

I completely agree with this.

that being said, it bothers me not 1 jot, as i am confident this cringing stuff will have no effect what so ever on the final game, which I think will be great.

The 10 for the chairman is good though, but wingmans hangar.........

<shudder>
 
The process of creating a movie doesn't change as radically as in game development. The process of planning a game is radically more difficult.

I can only assume you've never worked on a movie if you'd say that. All kinds of things change at the last minute on movies, you lose the light, the weather changes, the set ain't ready, a prop breaks, or isn't delivered on time, the actor has a cold, the vehicles break down, the local authority butt in, you can't clear the set, a camera or light goes U/S, a costume has a problem, something changes at a location when you do a reshoot, the second unit has different weather or light, etc, etc. There are all kinds of things like this which end up necessitating changes to be made, despite all your meticulous planning and in many ways, the ability to come up with solutions and alternatives when these sort of things occur, is what separates the decent directors from the average ones.

The process of planning Star Citizen, and in particular Squadron 42, is remarkably similar to planning a movie in many ways. It's been stated numerous times by lots of people on the SC production crew, principally Chris Roberts, that SC and especially Squadron 42, are intended to be 'a cinematic experience' but one where you are effectively 'in the movie', that is what Chris Roberts is aiming for, and very obviously has always been aiming for when you look back at everything he's ever produced.

The desire of Chris Roberts to make games 'movie-like' is most readily apparent in Privateer 2, where you had some brilliant A-List actors (and Clive Owen lol) including David Warner, Jürgen Prochnow, John Hurt, Christopher Walken, acting in the numerous cut scenes. Some of these actors Roberts later directed again in the movie version of Wing Commander, but it is also notable that Chris's brother, Erin (who worked on Privateer and Wing Commander) is now at the helm at Foundry 42, just up the road from me in Wilmslow, where they are handling much of Squadron 42's development.

Thus CIG and RSI have a team in place which is very familiar with what it takes to get a big production off the ground, they having done so before with both movies and games.
 
I can only assume you've never worked on a movie if you'd say that. All kinds of things change at the last minute on movies, you lose the light, the weather changes, the set ain't ready, a prop breaks, or isn't delivered on time, the actor has a cold, the vehicles break down, the local authority butt in, you can't clear the set, a camera or light goes U/S, a costume has a problem, something changes at a location when you do a reshoot, the second unit has different weather or light

True, never worked on any movie, I only know a little bit from my time in game development. I guess "the grass is always greener on the other side" but there are some fundamental things different, and more complex. It's not that movies can't be infinite complex, but it's like going from 2D to 3D, games add another infinite dimension to the complexity. Some more thoughts that are not really relevant to the thread..
1. You can explain all the problems in the production of a movie to anybody. There are specific things and a lot of mastery and specialization involved, but the essentials can be "compartmentalized" in a way that's impossible for games. Explain some kind of bug or gameplay problem or "it's not fun" and it gets way more complicated. A movie can be retold in words, a game cannot be retold in words because it's interactive. Or try explaining why there was logical bug in the system and that you cannot add this simple feature because it would cause so many other changes in code.

2. If you are finished with a part of the movie, you have a clip and it's finished. If it looks good and works within the movie, it's done. You can tweak it, cut it, dub it, color correct it, add some cgi. In the worst case you reshoot it and that might make it twice as expensive, but is essentially the same process repeated. In games, things are connected and everything has to fit together. For example, someone might make a damage model for a ship, now you add a weapon and it has to cause some totally different damage, and you have to go back and change all of that. Maybe a bad example. Maybe this for example, if they balance the free play portion of SC for PVP balance, nerf the agility of space ships, suddenly the campaign in Squadron 42 has some incredibly hard parts in it. Except it they make it a different executable or something.

3. There are "unknown unknowns" in game development. If you look at all the different genre of games, they all have their own challenges and logic to them. A film and it's production can be broken down more easily. Not saying stuff can't go wrong or that you always miss something, but for a game or software development you just *cannot* know what awaits you until you finished the development. It's one of the reasons why publishers shy away from games that try to do something new and like clones. The most experienced developer in one genre can run aground in a different genre. And anything new is just a headache.

The process of planning Star Citizen, and in particular Squadron 42, is remarkably similar to planning a movie in many ways.

There was a link posted on this forum about storytelling in movies and games and how interactivity should play more into it instead of trying to make games like movies. Unfortunately I can't find it anymore.
 
There was a link posted on this forum about storytelling in movies and games and how interactivity should play more into it instead of trying to make games like movies. Unfortunately I can't find it anymore.

That's what CR is doing. He wants you to feel you're in a movie, starring as one of the main characters. Many of the NPC's will have professional actors as voice-overs, instead of the cinematic scenes from earlier Wing Commander (3-5). Your in-game character's mouth can move in sync. with your own when you speak, if you have a webcamera. Even your character's eyes are important (if you look away when you're talking to someone it'll affect the conversation). The faces of NPC's will be modelled with a face capture technology.

Don't confuse a game that's like a movie to be static or cinematic like.
 
Wow the webcam mocap for talking sounds pretty awesome. Been waiting on something like that!

I'm still more excited about generated interactive stories :)
 
SC, if pulled off to Mr Robert's vision, will be awesome, but different to Elite: Dangerous.
I am particularly looking forward to SQ42, as I did love Starlancer, and that style of mission-based campaign game experience.

I also am somewhat unimpressed by the whole showbiz thing with wingman's hangar, and all the 'hell yeah! we're awesome!" thing going on there. But I think that is intended for a mainly US audience, who tend to like that kind of thing.
I don't "look down my nose" at it, it's just not to my liking.
 
I can only assume you've never worked on a movie if you'd say that. All kinds of things change at the last minute on movies, you lose the light, the weather changes, the set ain't ready, a prop breaks, or isn't delivered on time, the actor has a cold, the vehicles break down, the local authority butt in, you can't clear the set, a camera or light goes U/S, a costume has a problem, something changes at a location when you do a reshoot, the second unit has different weather or light, etc, etc. There are all kinds of things like this which end up necessitating changes to be made, despite all your meticulous planning and in many ways, the ability to come up with solutions and alternatives when these sort of things occur, is what separates the decent directors from the average ones.
I asume you never worked on a game. And specificly as lead programmer. Not artist. Where you deal with change on software architecture level.
Me also not but this is uniek to games and the big difference.
Mannaging the game engine software architecture. With change.
Change for games can be of a huge impact for a game engine. Wich means need to replan and shift milestones. And refactor the change to the engine. Well this could be a problem if it is a inhouse engine made for this game uniekly and engineerd to get functionality done. In often record of time. Instead more resource and time needed good extensible and easy to maintane software architecture solution wich could deal with change and extention much better.
But often this is not the case.
Games depend largly on software architecture if change is easy done or a recept for a huge disaster. That why frequently games are canceld due to change and resources spent on stuff that cut out or need to be redone.
And often to much bugy games.

Change on code level means breaking already tested code. Wich means going throught the whole proces of changing and testing. But inbewtween with very coupeld code chnge could work trough out large part of the engine.
change for a game can have a extreem impact for not so good maintainable code base.
The process of planning Star Citizen, and in particular Squadron 42, is remarkably similar to planning a movie in many ways. It's been stated numerous times by lots of people on the SC production crew, principally Chris Roberts, that SC and especially Squadron 42, are intended to be 'a cinematic experience' but one where you are effectively 'in the movie', that is what Chris Roberts is aiming for, and very obviously has always been aiming for when you look back at everything he's ever produced.
No it is not.but the squadrob 42 module is. But not starcitizen. Wich is a opensandbox game. CR has experience with both type of games and movie production. Wich movie is much more fresh to him as he come back from it to gamedevelopment. wich mean they got a lead from someone with experience in both fields. Wich might be a good signe if he could put this benefit of experience to good use.

The desire of Chris Roberts to make games 'movie-like' is most readily apparent in Privateer 2, where you had some brilliant A-List actors (and Clive Owen lol) including David Warner, Jürgen Prochnow, John Hurt, Christopher Walken, acting in the numerous cut scenes. Some of these actors Roberts later directed again in the movie version of Wing Commander, but it is also notable that Chris's brother, Erin (who worked on Privateer and Wing Commander) is now at the helm at Foundry 42, just up the road from me in Wilmslow, where they are handling much of Squadron 42's development.
His movies arent block busters but not need to be wenn going for a game experience. Game writing is different. But the experience does count.
Thus CIG and RSI have a team in place which is very familiar with what it takes to get a big production off the ground, they having done so before with both movies and games.
I don't think its that big. 30mil is nothing in singleplayer pure epic story blockbuster games and movies. Its also split over the core SC sandbox game. Vs squadron 42 module.
Good epic story need these important key team members. A very good game writer with block buster capabitities. There don't come cheap. So if funds arent up to it they probaly use some reqular professional but no high flyer. Even worse some regular teammember might get this task.
Some block buster triple A games go to top writers for deept high quality story. Bypassing game writer. Wich could be risk. Game writing is a special field.

I guess that on paper CR have a decent status of executing such deep story driven movie like game. But is he using a good writer to get a deep epic story.

But then again i am more into a very good gameplay experience. And cutscene I skip trough.
 
I don't think its that big. 30mil is nothing in singleplayer pure epic story blockbuster games and movies. Its also split over the core SC sandbox game. Vs squadron 42 module.

Whilst it may be true in the overall scheme of games making $30mil is not that much for a AAA title, I don't think that is completely relevant here.

How much of the money in many of the blockbusters goes into licensing? (cars, tracks, people names, league names or even the licence to use a franchise name etc etc)

SC will have none of that.

Also a large amount of the money will simply be slurped up by middlemen costs, a lot of which wont be an issue here due to the way the game is funded.
 
Whilst it may be true in the overall scheme of games making $30mil is not that much for a AAA title, I don't think that is completely relevant here. [...]

Also a large amount of the money will simply be slurped up by middlemen costs, a lot of which wont be an issue here due to the way the game is funded.

Exactly. The usual studio overhead with marketing, investor paybacks, media print costs, packing, distribution, etc. is huge, and CIG don't have that. Plus it's not $30M anymore, it's close to $40M.

CR has said he can make an AAA game and there's no reason to doubt he can do it IMO.
 
I asume you never worked on a game. And specificly as lead programmer. Not artist. Where you deal with change on software architecture level.
Me also not but this is uniek to games and the big difference.

Since we're doing war stories, I assume you've never worked on a website where your database had an upper-bound on performance, and you only found out when you got enough visitors to reach the threshold :p

Software is full of hard problems, and it's easy to overestimate how many of those problems are unique to the area of software you work in.
 
I asume you never worked on a game.

Then you'd be wrong, I used to do freelance stuff for Ocean software in Manchester and I did some stuff for Core Design too, plus a few other places as well. I actually show people how to design a small shooter game from start to finish on one of the courses I present too. :)
 
Since we're doing war stories, I assume you've never worked on a website where your database had an upper-bound on performance, and you only found out when you got enough visitors to reach the threshold :p
This is relevant to Star Citizen. It worries me that they have given so many people alpha access, talk about big bang deployment.

You tend to hear a lot of Star Citizen fans criticising Elite: Dangerous for being so expensive to get into alpha, but in terms of scaling up gradually to test network code it makes a lot of sense to limit the initial numbers.

My prediction is there's going to be a lot of queuing to get into the SC alpha servers.
 
yep SC alpha is going to be interesting. before that though..DFM. which will be more interesting i think. they will need to recoup some of faith after the postponement in December.

this sorta goes back to what others have said about the recent developer conference video where apparent basics were still being discussed as though they were after thoughts almost. how they didn't foresee that the main issue of the DFM deployment was going to be important well before December was a bit suspect to me.
 
this sorta goes back to what others have said about the recent developer conference video where apparent basics were still being discussed as though they were after thoughts almost. how they didn't foresee that the main issue of the DFM deployment was going to be important well before December was a bit suspect to me.

This might have been said before here, I haven't read the entire thread yet. But whenever I watch "10 for the Chairman" I'm always surprised to see the way in which Chris Roberts answers questions. Many times they are vague...but it's the questions where he says; "I haven't thought about that." to questions which I would have thought should be right in there in early game design.

It's very hard to get a true impression just how far into development Star Citizen actually is...
 
I just cant imagine the process that takes place in SC HQ when important and seemingly very basic things are being discussed.

....Meanwhile in SC HQ sometime in summer last year....

CR is sitting with his designers.

CR: " ok then fellas we have this great idea bout releasing a Dogfighting module thats going to have this and this and this and people will be able to buy this and this and this right now "

The Group: " Sure yeah we can do all that for sure, theres some other stuff to get there but we can do ALL that "

CR: " great meeting guys!! adjourned until December "

...Sometime in December SC HQ....

CR: " ok fantastic folks where we at with this DFM ive been saying we can do? "

The Group: " well....you know we can do all this stuff we said we could ...AND WE WILL...yes we will!! In fact we added MORE! Well we haven't figured out yet that the engine back end we are going use cant handle the stuff we totally ARE going to do...yet! "

CR: " Bang on fellas!!! Keepin' IT REAL " Applauds and does a pointed finger at the community.




Ok a bit dramatic but honestly i wish id heard of ED before SC at this point.
 
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yep SC alpha is going to be interesting. before that though..DFM. which will be more interesting i think. they will need to recoup some of faith after the postponement in December.

this sorta goes back to what others have said about the recent developer conference video where apparent basics were still being discussed as though they were after thoughts almost. how they didn't foresee that the main issue of the DFM deployment was going to be important well before December was a bit suspect to me.

Equally but with no explanation ED is delayed from expected release date of March. If a major change in code is causing a 2 month delay with SC, is it perhaps the same kind of thing that is causing the delay of 2 months with ED.
Seems similar obstacles for both games.
 
Equally but with no explanation ED is delayed from expected release date of March. If a major change in code is causing a 2 month delay with SC, is it perhaps the same kind of thing that is causing the delay of 2 months with ED.
Seems similar obstacles for both games.

Can an apple suffer from the same bug as an orange? ;)
 
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