How FD undermined their own creation

The greatest single aspect of ED is without doubt Stellar Forge and the recreation of a 1-1 galaxy with all the variety that RNG can muster with 400 billion potentially unique outcomes.

Unfortunately, almost every single decision made about exploring it has been wrong and has undermined the glorious scale and variety of our home, the Milky Way.

Blunder 1. The Open Galaxy
By making travel unrestricted, FD immediately and irrevocably removed the wide possibilities of path-finding as an exploration mechanism.
A huge amount of gameplay could have been built around the idea that hyperspace routes between systems need to be established before they can be used.
Imagine a hard frontier around the bubble of explored space, as there was on a smaller scale during Beta. A key gameplay mechanism could have involved some form of route discovery to both push the frontier outwards, and improve transport links inside the bubble.
Instead, the #1 attraction in the entire galaxy, the centre of it, was reached before the game even officially launched.
Rather than an exercise in path-finding led expansion, travelling our galaxy became an exercise in endurance.

Blunder 2. Ever-Increasing Jump Ranges
Space is big, really big, you wouldn't believe... you get the idea. Prior to Engineers, jump ranges maxxed out at about 40ly. The top range from 30-40ly was in a sweet spot that gave the galaxy a structure - the difference between the core, the spiral arms, and the gaps between them was clearly noticable and represented a genuine navigation challenge.
Possibly due to pressure from this community, instead of addressing the very poor jump ranges of certain ships, engineering grossly exagerrated the jump ranges of ships that were already the best at it.
Sure, getting around the bubble is now a lot more convenient, but the cost was the removal of any texture in the galaxy.
Prior to this change, a trip to the next spiral arm posed minor route finding problems, and the further out you went, the more tricky it got. This is arguably, the only navigation problem the game has ever contained. Removing it trivialized the scale of the galaxy, and made it a generic unstructured clump of stars instead of an interesting stuctured spiral requiring route planning.
That route finding gameplay does still exist, but now it is very much a fringe activity out on the extreme edges of the galaxy, with a rapidly diminishing set of unreachable locations.

Blunder 3. The Full System Scanner
Space is big, really big, you wouldn't believe... oh, I already said that. Yup, even individual systems are big. Supercruise was a late change to the original design but it is absolutely essential to getting even the slightest sense of the vast distances even within a system.
Yup, it is not fully fleshed out, it seems like a timesink in very large systems, and there isn't enough to do on one of those trips to Hutton Orbital. But just think about Hutton Orbital - the most iconic outpost in the game - only because it is so far away.
The glory of Stellar Forge is the variety it creates, some systems are big, some systems are tiny, and everything in between. There is no lack of choice available, and the truth is that if you don't like long SC trips, you can easily avoid them.
What's that got to do with the FSS - it's the wrong solution to something that isn't actually a problem.
The problem with SC isn't so much the time it takes to get to secondary stars, it's the lack of things to do on the way there.
Instead of making an in-flight scanner, the FSS brings us to a standstill, removes us from the cockpit, and then commits the worst offence of all - it flattens out every system into the same generic sized strobing blue sphere containing the same generic blue blobs.
System discovery becomes an exercise in camera panning where distance is irrelevant - somehow the developers surrendered to the idea that SC is a problem and created a mechanism to avoid it instead of adding it as something to do while you travel.

So where does that leave us.
A galaxy where almost every trip is a straight line due to excessive jump range, where there are almost no geographical barriers to negotiate (except permit locks), where we don't even need to move within a system to discover its content.

That's an awful long way from the original vision set out in the dim and distant past that was the DDF.
Sadly ED hasn't come close to its potential, and from day one, was heading in the wrong direction.
That direction has become more embedded as time passes and with the confirmation that the FSS is the final word, with no alternatives to be offered, the generification of the galaxy is now complete.

Game over man, game over
 
Last edited:
[...]
So where does that leave us.
A galaxy where almost every trip is a straight line due to excessive jump range, where there are almost no geographical barriers to negotiate (except permit locks), where we don't even need to move within a system to discover its content.
[...]

Not one word I wouldn't agree to and the above sums it up pretty well.

On the other hand travelling the bubble shouldn't take forever - for the ease of gameplay. But some inventive mind sure could find a solution to differntiate between fast and easy "In-Bubble" travel and daunting and explorer-like travel in the deep. edit: I guess point 1 wanted to tackle this with established hyperspace routes. It sounds like a nice solution to this - however, maybe it's to late now for change - things seem pretty much baked and done.

I hope this post will get some notice.
 
Last edited:
I agree with your points 1 and 3, and disagree on point 2 and your conclusion of "game over man, game over"

As someone who entered after 2.4 I never had problems with jump ranges and even on my way to Beagle due to a 70+ LY range I never had to "find my way".
This is really some lost gameplay imho. I'm a big fan of "jump points", my favorite science fiction series is the Starfire series from David Weber, where a big plot point
has always been the exploration of jump points and jump routes. Would've loved something like this.

Increasing jump ranges isn't a problem, and it's not the reason the galaxy "doesn't have texture" as you put it. The Elite galaxy simply doesn't have texture, it's all same same,
bark mounds in the sanguineus rim are the same as bark mounds in the Core (no idea if you can find them there...). There is no fundamental difference in things to discover.
Have seen one class 4? You've seen them all. Notable exceptions are the extremely rare green giants, and specialties like crystalline shards which really are not found anywhere
(and make a sense to discover...).
Combined with the "first takes all" implementation of the Codex my interest in exploration had a sudden spike when it was new, and imploded consequently after seeing nearly everything interesting was pre-mapped from beta and/or discovered as soon as live went live.

Concerning the FSS I agree, I think the better solution would've been a overlay in the cockpit, where you move the ship and not the scanner, and where you would've been able to
fly around while scanning. Generally I like the FSS though, because it enables me to find things quickly, and then take a better look if interested. The old god honk was not in my taste.

It's still a fantastic game I spent time in nearly every day. But it could be improved, of course.
 
I don't think jump ranges have made too much difference.

With the old jump ranges, I couldn't bring myself to explore (in my favourite ship at the time, my Python) for very long, and visiting Sagittarius A* was one heck of a chore.

These days, I can take my fully equipped 55ly Phantom out for short trips to certain places, and explore them before heading home. I always head towards the less dense parts of space, for the added challenge of manual plotting, but now I can get there and back much faster.
Plus I can also skip around the bubble with ease, which is a huge bonus.

Supercruise is also very very boring.
I actually prefer to scan systems using the FSS over fly towards each planet and staring awkwardly at it until it's scanned.

Now I can just scan each planet, check if it has anything worth mapping, or looks interesting, then fly over and map it, and potentially land on it, or just marvel at it.

I get space is big, but supercruise, IMHO, just makes space feel boring. You never really feel like you're moving that fast.
 
FSS - I never use it. It looks great but it should be a screen overlay, it feels like a mini game and it grates every time I fire it up.

The big mistake for me was making the galaxy visible from the get go. You needed to have a scanner to find systems within your jump range and then markers to show where you had visited. I also think having discoverable jump points within larger systems, so players could jump in at different points would have been great.
 
I agree with your points 1 and 3, and disagree on point 2 and your conclusion of "game over man, game over"

As someone who entered after 2.4 I never had problems with jump ranges and even on my way to Beagle due to a 70+ LY range I never had to "find my way".
This is really some lost gameplay imho. I'm a big fan of "jump points", my favorite science fiction series is the Starfire series from David Weber, where a big plot point
has always been the exploration of jump points and jump routes. Would've loved something like this.

Increasing jump ranges isn't a problem, and it's not the reason the galaxy "doesn't have texture" as you put it. The Elite galaxy simply doesn't have texture, it's all same same,
bark mounds in the sanguineus rim are the same as bark mounds in the Core (no idea if you can find them there...). There is no fundamental difference in things to discover.
Have seen one class 4? You've seen them all. Notable exceptions are the extremely rare green giants, and specialties like crystalline shards which really are not found anywhere
(and make a sense to discover...).
Combined with the "first takes all" implementation of the Codex my interest in exploration had a sudden spike when it was new, and imploded consequently after seeing nearly everything interesting was pre-mapped from beta and/or discovered as soon as live went live.

Concerning the FSS I agree, I think the better solution would've been a overlay in the cockpit, where you move the ship and not the scanner, and where you would've been able to
fly around while scanning. Generally I like the FSS though, because it enables me to find things quickly, and then take a better look if interested. The old god honk was not in my taste.

It's still a fantastic game I spent time in nearly every day. But it could be improved, of course.

If you joined at 2.4, then you missed the time when jump range was a factor.
On a trip out to say the Formidine Rift, you would immediately know when you had left our spiral arm and entered the shallows in the gap to the next one - depending on how far you'd deviated from the galactic plane, your route choices became limited, and this only became more pronounced in the gap to the Outer Arm.
I spent about a month trying to pick a route back from there due to being limited to 35ly jumps.
No jumponium, no neutron boosts, no visited systems breadcrumb, even the route planner was limited to 100ly at the time.
Now, with your 70ly range, you'll just blast past those gaps without even knowing they were there.
Looking back, that was the most isolated I've felt in the game, there were times that I thought I'd never find a way back, and might need to self-destruct, losing months of data - genuine hazard, purely due to the structure of the galaxy and lower jump ranges.
 
Last edited:
The FSS* is just a money making tool., for me. My real exploration of a system starts with the surface scans. At least that puts you in a situation where you are that close to a planet, you might as well pop down and have a closer look if you see anything interesting. I'm hoping atmospheric landings come along so we can apply the same theory to those worlds too. When you've scanned one ELW...

Not sure jump range is the problem either. I had no problem navigating gaps between the arms in a 30ly ship. The couple of times I hit non-soopable patches just took a minute re route around. I don't feel I'd be missing out by jumping past these.

I'll agree completely with 1. Is there any challenge to exploration when you know that there's no risk or danger with jumping into a new system and you can hop over on a whim?

*bad typo the first time I wrote that. This acronym is going to get someone in trouble one day.
 
Last edited:
My issue isn't so much with the openness of the galaxy as much as it's exact structure down to the location of every star system being revealed to all. I don't think there was a need for any hard barriers, but the unknown itself could have been one. Yes, I realize we can see much from any given location, but we cannot see it all, and much of what we can see is outdated by the time we see it.

However, I definitely agree that increasing jump ranges have harmed exploration and along with absent mechanisms like misjumps and actual wear and tear, resulted in a galaxy largely free of obstructions and navigation perils. An even more acute issue with jump current jump ranges is how trivial travel around the bubble has become. Logistics are largely irrelevant and much flavor, formerly provided by distinct clusters of space within the bubble (Eranin, the Old Worlds, etc), and a sense that things were happening "over there" rather than right next door.

I have mixed feelings regarding the FSS, but generally agree that Frontier has treated SC as an obstacle rather than as a medium.
 
I don't think jump ranges have made too much difference.

With the old jump ranges, I couldn't bring myself to explore (in my favourite ship at the time, my Python) for very long, and visiting Sagittarius A* was one heck of a chore.

These days, I can take my fully equipped 55ly Phantom out for short trips to certain places, and explore them before heading home. I always head towards the less dense parts of space, for the added challenge of manual plotting, but now I can get there and back much faster.
Plus I can also skip around the bubble with ease, which is a huge bonus.

Supercruise is also very very boring.
I actually prefer to scan systems using the FSS over fly towards each planet and staring awkwardly at it until it's scanned.

Now I can just scan each planet, check if it has anything worth mapping, or looks interesting, then fly over and map it, and potentially land on it, or just marvel at it.

I get space is big, but supercruise, IMHO, just makes space feel boring. You never really feel like you're moving that fast.

You make some valid points but the solutions shouldn't have been to make the galaxy smaller.
Sure, when travelling far presents no challenge whatsover, you just want to get there and back as quickly as possible. Prior to ever-expanding jump range, getting there was part of the challenge, not just something to get done as quickly as possible.

Again, the same with SC - there's nothing to do on a long trip - but that's the problem, not the fact that space is big. The solution is to add things to do, certainly not come to a standstill in order to avoid it.

The FSS is better than the old DSS, but it does effectively reduce all systems to the same size for the purpose of discovery.
Its failings as an ADS replacement are well discussed elsewhere, so I'll not get into that here.
 
IMHO the biggest issue by far is the lack of challenge. Structural integrity should be far more important, there should be all kinds of environmental risks and maybe even small chances of meeting potentially hostile lifeforms. If we had that I wouldn't exactly care about any of the points of the OP.

The endgoal should be that you identify if something of interest exists in a system rapidly via fss, and then either move on or spend considerable time exploring it with related gameplay and out of SC. Currently there is little to explore, making the underutilised.

Let's see what 4.0 brings.
 
The greatest single aspect of ED is without doubt Stellar Forge and the recreation of a 1-1 galaxy with all the variety that RNG can muster with 400 billion potentially unique outcomes.

Unfortunately, almost every single decision made about exploring it has been wrong and has undermined the glorious scale and variety of our home, the Milky Way.

Blunder 1. The Open Galaxy
By making travel unrestricted, FD immediately and irrevocably removed the wide possibilities of path-finding as an exploration mechanism.
A huge amount of gameplay could have been built around the idea that hyperspace routes between systems need to be established before they can be used.
Imagine a hard frontier around the bubble of explored space, as there was on a smaller scale during Beta. A key gameplay mechanism could have involved some form of route discovery to both push the frontier outwards, and improve transport links inside the bubble.
Instead, the #1 attraction in the entire galaxy, the centre of it, was reached becore the game even officially launched.
Rather than an exercise in path-finding led expansion, travelling our galaxy became an exercise in endurance.

Blunder 2. Ever-Increasing Jump Ranges
Space is big, really big, you wouldn't believe... you get the idea. Prior to Engineers, jump ranges maxxed out at about 40ly. The top range from 30-40ly was in a sweet spot that gave the galaxy a structure - the difference between the core, the spiral arms, and the gaps between them was clearly noticable and represented a genuine navigation challenge.
Possibly due to pressure from this community, instead of addressing the very poor jump ranges of certain ships, engineering grossly exagerrated the jump ranges of ships that were already the best at it.
Sure, getting around the bubble is now a lot more convenient, but the cost was the removal of any texture in the galaxy.
Prior to this change, a trip to the next spiral arm posed minor route finding problems, and the further out you went, the more tricky it got. This is arguably, the only navigation problem the game has ever contained. Removing it trivialized the scale of the galaxy, and made it a generic unstructured clump of stars instead of an interesting stuctured spiral requiring route planning.
That route finding gameplay does still exist, but now it is very much a fringe activity out on the extreme edges of the galaxy, with a rapidly diminishing set of unreachable locations.

Blunder 3. The Full System Scanner
Space is big, really big, you wouldn't believe... oh, I already said that. Yup, even individual systems are big. Supercruise was a late change to the original design but it is absolutely essential to getting even the slightest sense of the vast distances even within a system.
Yup, it is not fully fleshed out, it seems like a timesink in very large systems, and there isn't enough to do on one of those trips to Hutton Orbital. But just think about Hutton Orbital - the most iconic outpost in the game - only because it is so far away.
The glory of Stellar Forge is the variety it creates, some systems are big, some systems are tiny, and everything in between. There is no lack of choice available, and the truth is that if you don't like long SC trips, you can easily avoid them.
What's that got to do with the FSS - it's the wrong solution to something that isn't actually a problem.
The problem with SC isn't so much the time it takes to get to secondary stars, it's the lack of things to do on the way there.
Instead of making an in-flight scanner, the FSS brings us to a standstill, removes us from the cockpit, and then commits the worst offence of all - it flattens out every system into the same generic sized strobing blue sphere containing the same generic blue blobs.
System discovery becomes an exercise in camera panning where distance is irrelevant - somehow the developers surrendered to the idea that SC is a problem and created a mechanism to avoid it instead of adding it as something to do while you travel.

So where does that leave us.
A galaxy where almost every trip is a straight line due to excessive jump range, where there are almost no geographical barriers to negotiate (except permit locks), where we don't even need to move within a system to discover its content.

That's an awful long way from the original vision set out in the dim and distant past that was the DDF.
Sadly ED hasn't come close to its potential, and from day one, was heading in the wrong direction.
That direction has become more embedded as time passes and with the confirmation that the FSS is the final word, with no alternatives to be offered, the generification of the galaxy is now complete.

Game over man, game over

1. Open universe to every player, that was Elite, that was Frontier and that was what this game was designed to be. Your idea is interesting, but is the anti-thesis of the Elite-saga.
2. Increasing jump ranges was probably a necessity when the content (Thargoids, guardians, engineering) greatly increased travel grind. If not I suspect the galaxy would have been pretty lonely by now.
3. SC for mapping a system was extremely clunky and grating, the new model is good. To find the truly interesting stuff and get "mapped by"-claim you still have to do surface scans.

Honestly, I think the best addition they could give for explorers is simply more varied stuff to find on system bodies. This would alleviate most of your concerns.
 
I agree with the exception of system discovery.

At the present state the vast majority of planets do not offer enough variety, not to mention that the most interesting one we still can't land on. Creating complex gameplay to discover a not landable HMC that looks like billions of others wouldn't be rewarding at all.
 
Last edited:
The glory of Stellar Forge is the variety it creates, some systems are big, some systems are tiny, and everything in between. There is no lack of choice available, and the truth is that if you don't like long SC trips, you can easily avoid them.
[...]
So where does that leave us.
A galaxy where almost every trip is a straight line due to excessive jump range, where there are almost no geographical barriers to negotiate (except permit locks), where we don't even need to move within a system to discover its content.
I absolutely welcome the longer ranges. Areas I've been to and where I'm no longer interested in can now be passed fairly quickly, instead of going through the same drag over and over again. Once where I want to be, I switch to short ranges.

If you don't like long jump ranges, they can be easily avoided as well. You don't need to use the FSS. You can still parallax-discover planets if thats what you fancy. I don't get it, why should everyone explore the way you like it?
 
Agree with most of this. The exploration/discovery proposals first put forward by FD would have made for a much more interesting game, but alas once that December 2014 launch date was set in stone the result was inevitable. Unfortunately the permanence of the galaxy itself means that, unlike other "placeholder" elements that have been replaced with more nuanced gameplay over the years, this one can't really be retconned in a way that erases established in-game "history".

The game also has the inevitable problem of attracting and retaining new exploration-oriented players, which can be a problem when the perception is that "everything decent has been explored already" (a complaint that goes all the way back to launch, believe it or not, thanks to the rolling over of gamma data). They achieved a sort of partial reset with the addition of First Mapped as well as First Discovered tags, but that's a trick you can only do once. Maybe twice if they add something for atmospheric planets. So jump-range creep is inevitable over time, if only to give newer players a fighting chance at that feeling of frontier exploration without having to spend days jump-honking.

A while back someone (who I would credit if the new forum search was more functional and/or all of the old archives were available) suggested a nice compromise on jump ranges: only allow long-range jumps into systems that have a navigation beacon, and either limit (or make risky due to misjumps) the longer wilderness jumps. That way you have fast travel in the bubble, limited range (or greater risk) in deep space, and even the possibility of a pathfinder career, laying prototype navigation beacons that can be used by other players and/or for a speedier return.

I guess the problem with introducing that is that it could trap long-range explorers out in the black with no safe way to return home at speed (or even get back from those fringe systems they might be exploring, looking at my own alt) without risking multiple misjumps.
 
I liked the original deep-space navigation proposal in the DDF and was quite disappointed when the game launched with the whole Galaxy “unlocked”. It’s never going to happen, but I’d love a Thargoid handwavium reason to ditch the current Universal Cartographics database (nasty virus?) and implement the original proposals - keep all the original discovery tags, but make a new “re-discovered by” tag.

Bin instantaneous FTL comms, create gameplay around pony-express style information dissemination and make the Frontier beyond the bubble feel like one.
 
Back
Top Bottom