General / Off-Topic How much longer for Corbyn and Cameron?

[Surfinjo]

Just picked up this video on i100 of an incident in the Commons where Corbyn was saying he had been in Brussels to meet someone. He then added, 'They said to me...' At which point a Tory MP shouted out, 'Who Are You?'

Corbyn was floored.

[video=youtube;HZPTZuwwHng]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZPTZuwwHng[/video]

 

[beelbeebub]

What larks! Who needs rational debate on important matters when we can have school yard jokes.

Wait for next session where the debate on immigration is ended by a "yo momma is...." quip and Putin put in his place when George Osbourne puts a whoopie cushion on his chair and declares him "Vladimir POOtin!".

 

[FuzzySpider]

What larks! Who needs rational debate on important matters when we can have school yard jokes.

Wait for next session where the debate on immigration is ended by a "yo momma is...." quip and Putin put in his place when George Osbourne puts a whoopie cushion on his chair and declares him "Vladimir POOtin!".

Exactly.

Disagreement isn't bad. Disagreement is good. Attempting to silence disagreement and debate is what is bad.

Sadly it looks as if the Conservatives and their lackes in the media are going to accomplish this very thing.

 

[Surfinjo]

David Cameron tells MPs he is not standing for re-election.......................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35633740

 

[Arry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35633740

It is said that over 100 Tory M.Ps are heading for the exit. Dave's scared of the one he just; had to pick on. I wonder if Boris was more popular at school?

 

[Surfinjo]

It is said that over 100 Tory M.Ps are heading for the exit. Dave's scared of the one he just; had to pick on. I wonder if Boris was more popular at school?

The Eaton Old Boys get together would be a fascinating occasion to pick up some interesting gossip.

I recall and edition of Have I Got News For You, hosted by Hugh Ferney Wittingstall (the name has rather more charisma than the fellow) where he was asked about his impressions of Cameron when they were both at Eaton. The cook replied that they were in different years and left it at that.

Strangely, neither of the two permanents challenged him.

Or perhaps not!

 

[beelbeebub]

My god, they literally (in the original sense of the word) descended to the "Your mum...." level of argument....

As an aside, as childish and logically unsound as making fun of someone's appearance is, it is equally childish and logically unsound to bring up someone's educational institution. The school that someone attended is almost always beyond their control.

Imagine the furore if someone said we shouldn't listen to Mr X because "he went to a local comp".

Rightly they would be pilloried.

Lets have debate on the ideas and ditch the schoolyard bickering from both sides.

 

[Surfinjo]

My god, they literally (in the original sense of the word) descended to the "Your mum...." level of argument....

As an aside, as childish and logically unsound as making fun of someone's appearance is, it is equally childish and logically unsound to bring up someone's educational institution. The school that someone attended is almost always beyond their control.

Imagine the furore if someone said we shouldn't listen to Mr X because "he went to a local comp".

Rightly they would be pilloried.

Lets have debate on the ideas and ditch the schoolyard bickering from both sides.

That's how things are in Westminster every day.

What is disturbing is how Corbyn seemed so flummoxed by it. He may have been trying to see the fellow down, but he didn't succeed.

His two MPs behind him seemed to be trying not to laugh.

 

[Arry]

I feel that the MPs are too slow and unable to think on their feet.

As a reply to Daves suit comment today: Corbyn should have asked Dave; how much the tax payer is paying for Daves suits.

 

[beelbeebub]

I feel that the MPs are too slow and unable to think on their feet.

As a reply to Daves suit comment today: Corbyn should have asked Dave; how much the tax payer is paying for Daves suits.

I always come up with the best comebacks........24hours later.

I was once involved with a particularly nasty man, who had over the course of a morning, called me an oaf, an idiot, a thief and a liar, threatened to sue me several times, racially abused me and struck me several times with his stick before threatening to "end me".

As we parted, he stuck his hand out and said "let us part as gentlemen"

What I should have said is "I only shake hands with friends and gentlemen and you, sir, are neither" before turning on my heel and walking away.

What a I actually said in the heat of the moment was along the lines of "Fork off you old punt".

Oh the missed opportunities......

 

[jackdaws_1999]

I heard Cameron is petitioning for a new movie, its called "Babe: Big city, in little pig"... I doubt it will be PG... (°@°) Thats Pig Gentle btw...

sorry to lower the tone, I had come up with a witty political argument against the Tory misinformation bureau, but deleted it in favour of pig jokes. Simply following the west minster example. why put well thought out political arguments, when there is pig sex jokes?

 

[beelbeebub]

To be fair, Corbyn went up in my estimation after his refusal to indulge in "piggy gate".

Nice to see some maturity in our politicians, even if I don't agree with all of his positions

 

[Yaffle]

To be fair, Corbyn went up in my estimation after his refusal to indulge in "piggy gate".

Nice to see some maturity in our politicians, even if I don't agree with all of his positions

That last clause is a tad unfortunate!

I feel embarrassed for our country every time PMQ is on. It's just painful to watch adults behaving like that, waving papers, heckling, trying to make witty insults. Just who are they trying to impress? Last time I checked six year olds don't vote.

The point of PMQs was to have some form of scrutiny over the administration, not for the incumbents and opposition to trade cheap jokes at each other.

 

[beelbeebub]

Yeah it's embarrassing, and I have to ask, is it a good use of their time?

I actually mooted the idea of PMQs as a web forum, not dissimilar to this forum. Each week a number of questions from the opposition plus some other MPs and maybe even the public, would be put up as topics. The PM (or rather his office) would then reply, then the opposition (or original poster) responds, then maybe there is a final response from the PM.

The questions and replies would be free for everyone to see and pick over. The responses could include links to sources (maybe gifs would be banned though ) and there would be less opportunity for "sound biting".

That way we might actually get something other than poor schoolyard quips out of our elected representatives, plus it would be less time consuming, taking place over a 48hour or so period to allow for researched responses.

I believe they do written PMQs already, so it would be a case of expanding and modernizing that, putting it online and ditching the farce of PMQ's at the moment.

 

[Surfinjo]

It's essentially the same, elitist, Public School Boys environment it has always been.

That sadly, is Westminster, the seat of UK government.

Is it any wonder many of us want to abolish it?

I appreciate Corbyn's intentions. but his ambitions are greater than his ability to deliver. The way he was forced to kowtow to Benn over the bombing of the ME for example.

As an interesting interlude:


[video=youtube;UfZmMJKIBec]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfZmMJKIBec[/video]

 

[Yaffle]

Other than getting on the news it serves no good use of their time at all.

Interestingly, at least to me, 'Yes Minister' never featured the house. All of the actual stuff of government was done in corridors and meetings not on the floor of the house. The few politicians I have met have confirmed it not so much as a sit-com but a manual.

 

[beelbeebub]

It's essentially the same, elitist, Public School Boys environment it has always been.

I'm not going to deny it's a poor advert (PMQs especially) for our government, but can we stop banging on about the MP's education.

Where someone was educated should be irrelevant. I'm not arguing against diversity of background, simply that someone's background shouldn't be used against them as they have very little say in it.

I'm sure it would be considered bad taste to rebut Michael Gove's positions (and some of them do need rebutting) with "what he says is wrong because he was adopted".

 

[Surfinjo]

I'm not going to deny it's a poor advert (PMQs especially) for our government, but can we stop banging on about the MP's education.

Where someone was educated should be irrelevant. I'm not arguing against diversity of background, simply that someone's background shouldn't be used against them as they have very little say in it.

I'm sure it would be considered bad taste to rebut Michael Gove's positions (and some of them do need rebutting) with "what he says is wrong because he was adopted".

I wasn't referring to anyone's education. Many MPs are women, many were educated in state schools and those that went to public schools probably didn't behave like that these days or at any time since the 18th / 19th century. But if you know your parliamentary history, you will recall it has often been referred to as an Elitist Men's Club.

The behaviour, like most of Westminster is simply based upon those values.

The principal of Parliament has always been to retain things until they are found to be in need of change. That is why so many apparently silly customs remain such as turning to face the seats during the daily prayers. The daily prayers. Doffing caps. The Speaker resisting taking his seats, slamming the door on Black Rod. The list goes on and on.

In a way, it's a good thing, however archaic. It means that change doesn't happen for its own sake.

The problems arise when change is clearly needed, yet simply doesn't happen.

Currently, debates in Parliament tend to raucous affairs with cat calling and snide remarks. There are rules of course, but these are applied selectively. MPs should not clap, but it is done frequently and only SNP MPs have been pulled up over it.. MPs must never call any other MP a liar, though IDS got away with calling Tony Blair a liar when he was leader of the Tory opposition and Blair was PM.

The cat call in the OP toward Corbyn is par for the course. As an experienced MP, Corbyn knows that, yet he was clearly flustered and stumped.

If Corbyn is serious about bringing in a new politics, as he says, then he is going to need to get some better advice and support. His own PMs were laughing.

But as I asked in the OP, how much longer will this guy survive?

 

[beelbeebub]

Tricky, he has a lot of "grass roots" support, but it seems most of his MPs are against him.

My guess is, his grass roots support makes him safe for now but as soon as he makes a big enough mistake (which may not be a mistake per se just something that the other MPs can spin into one) the they'll knife him in the back.

Bit of a shame really, despite some differences of opinion, I think he's the sort of person we want in politics, just not the sort of person politics wants.

We get the politicians we deserve really.

 

[Yaffle]

To answer the OP:

I think Corbyn will survive as leader post December 2016. Whether he will still lead the same party, or whether some horrid split will happen I don't know. There seems to be a deep disconnect between his MPs and the larger party membership.

I think Cameron will survive if the Euro thing goes his way. Again, his party may at that point disintegrate as hard-core euroskeptics jump ship to UKIP. If he loses the EU thing then I believe he is doomed, and Boris will leap into the empty seat.