Newcomer / Intro How to avoid getting into endless head on jousts with the AI?

[LastZeroFighter]

Im getting really frustrated with this AI at the moment. Its borderline ruining this game for me. It seems that all the AI is interested in doing is boosting away from me, making some crazy tight turn and backing up while facetanking all of my shots. This isnt fun, who thought this behaviour was fun I dont know but I certainly dont find it enjoyable. It feels like the AI ,especially cobras and corvettes are just constantly facing me and it is really making me want to punch my monitor. And before you ask yes I know about the blue throttle control, yes I know how boosters work, yes I am managing my pips, and I am currently flying an A rated Viper MkIII. Ive tried practicing against the AI in the challenge modes and I can beat the first two but once I get to the Dangerous level the AI kicks my butt just like in game because they simply boost away whenever I get vaguely close then turn around and back away.

I am downwards boosters in my turns while managing throttle to keep myself in the blue zone. This somehow occasionally makes me fly backwards at which point my ship basically stops dead as it tries to transition back to normal flight. The Ai seems to be able to accelerate at incredible speeds then make a turn on a dime. People keep saying that the AI doesnt use FA off but I dont know how else to explain that behaviour. I have watched videos on youtube showing people getting into really intense and fun looking dogfights with the AI and the AI doesnt run away and try to joust with them endlessly so I really dont know what I am doing wrong.

 

[goemon]

is there a chance to put up a video of your flying? this kind of thing is easier to discuss with exampels.

generally, there is this problem with ED, that backwards flying and using vertical thrsuters (of player and AI) minimizes the speed and manouverability difference between any ships. higher ranked NPC use that a lot. generally, high ranked NPC can use all thrusters and set the speed for each of those much better than most players with a hotas.

are you thinking ahead? do you watch the thrusters of NPC working to predict their next move? whenever i have problems with the AI, i jump into an eagle, as that forces me not to tank and to think ahead (as the eagle isn't fast).

please share a video!

 

[d8veh]

The AI doesn't need to use FA off because it has absolute control of all its thrusters, which is the same thing.

To solve your problem, you need to move up to a Vulture. Let the Feds help you for a bit until you have the credits to get the Vulture fully A-rated. It's much easier to practice combat in a Vulture because it's much more responsive to thrusters, it has much more fire power and it can take more fire.

If you want to continue with the Viper, you need to chaff when they face you, then fly straight at them. Good pip management is essential.

 

[aRJay]

My technique when faced with corvettes is to leave rapidly and play somewhere else with my FdL.

When using thrusters in a dogfight I tend to be thrusting up whilst pulling back on the stick rather than pushing down, but yes if you keep thrusting down like that you will end up going backwards, no I am not clear on why.

The way I try to shorten the fight in my favour is to try to get close behind them before the shooting starts and then hit them with all weapons for as long as possible once they manoeuvre out of that I switch pips to 3 each in systems and weapons going to 4/2 when I lose a shield ring, I use a gimballed and turreted weapons mix because I find the ability to keep hitting the target for longer outweighs the loss of firepower and you can always hit a target using chaff if you are close enough.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Combat in the game is like that, I'm afraid.

There's pretty much one optimal tactic - flying backwards - that is painfully easy to do in a 6DoF environment when all the weapons point forward and the computer does half the flying of the ship for you.

The Viper Mk. III is a bit of a jousty ship too, to be honest - it's got great translation thrusters and changes speed very quickly, but it's got very poor pitch compared to the Cobra. For instance, an A-rated Corvette at optimal mass turns 360° in 12.8 seconds. In comparison, the Viper Mk. III does the same in 10.4. compared to 9.7 for a Cobra. This means you're often going to end up being out-turned by smaller ships, boosting away and ending up facing them, and the big ships can soak up enough damage from your vessel to get face-on without losing shields.

I find that the best way to get NPCs to stop facetanking you is to get close, preferably out of their firing arc. Yaw in this game is terrible-by-design, so use it to your advantage - the Viper's great translation thrusters allow you to move across your opponent's yaw axis while approaching. They'll be forced to rotate to the pitch axis, which allows you to get close. When you get close, NPCs will always break to reposition.

 

[LastZeroFighter]

Honestly I was just a little angry when I made that post so apologies for its inflammatory nature. Ive actually gotten rather good at killing the AI over the past few days but usually the feds show up to spoil my 1v1 fights. I might post a video to get some critique. My problem is that the AI is fairly quick on the throttle at times and I have a hell of a time keeping a close distance (although when I stay close I can usually destroy them in short order). I have also noticed that the Viper seems to be particularly good at fighting other small ships in this sort of joust especially with good pip managment which I have also been working on.

So can someone confirm if boosting up, down, or neither is the fastest turn rate, It seems like boosting up doesnt help my viper all that much but boosting down is good for gaining distance and positioning if managed properly.

 

[goemon]

So can someone confirm if boosting up, down, or neither is the fastest turn rate, It seems like boosting up doesnt help my viper all that much but boosting down is good for gaining distance and positioning if managed properly.

actually i tink on small ships the fastest turn with FAON is boosting while pitching and vertical thrusters in the same direction (so pitching nose up and vertical thrusters up); but generally boosting less, but thinking ahead is even better, as a boost will bring you out of close distance in most cases. i don#t know when i hit boost the last time during an engagement in my viper or eagle.

you might want to check into truesilvers circle strafing guide: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...silver-s-Top-Tips-Beginner-s-Guide-VR-PvP-Vid .... basically, that's what you will aim for when attacking ships below your speed and/or manouverability.

i very often use yaw to get into position, and than using my higher pitch rate and rolls to counter the AIs yaw while permaently using lateral and vertical thrusters ... i fly my courier often without any input from the throttle. ... a bit like wrestling. while truesilver covers pvp, too - pve it is for me very often to outsmart the npc routines, which i know quite well by now (as i made combat elite some time back). you'll find your own tricks, if you analyse during a fight what is the actual problem.

another note - i often run loadouts which do not need a lot of pips to WEP, so i very often run with 3-4 pips to ENG on small ships.

 

[LastZeroFighter]

Circle strafing seems to work alright but its effectiveness is less so against other fighters where jousting/ turning fights tend to develop due to the similarity in manuverability. Sometimes it feels like my thrusters are hardly working at all when i am fighting some ships just due to how well the Ai manages its own thrusters/ engines to keep their weapons on target. So far I have yet to die since buying my Viper a few days ago so i suppose I shouldnt be complaining.

 

[goemon]

Circle strafing seems to work alright but its effectiveness is less so against other fighters where jousting/ turning fights tend to develop due to the similarity in manuverability. Sometimes it feels like my thrusters are hardly working at all when i am fighting some ships just due to how well the Ai manages its own thrusters/ engines to keep their weapons on target. So far I have yet to die since buying my Viper a few days ago so i suppose I shouldnt be complaining.

well, you know - the AI should provide some challenge, and if it is only the challenge not to gun them down factetanking in a jousting battle (which is unfortunately very easy with some engineering)

 

[Happy Hippy]

Some Ships we get from stock are hell to circle AI via Lateral thrusts, FA OFF switching and Boost but you must Engineer them to make them catch up and turn as fast. Then never joist but attack at an angle and from rear if you have patience to manoeuvre. Right now I never have any trouble with AI ever and learn to always mix Thrusters especially side-strafes on occasion if they face you as you may get Rails/Plasma/Missles thrown at you. I always carry PD and actyually chaff rarely. Quite seriously I hardly ever get hit!

 

[LastZeroFighter]

well, you know - the AI should provide some challenge, and if it is only the challenge not to gun them down factetanking in a jousting battle (which is unfortunately very easy with some engineering)

Yeah I actually have grown to like how competent the AI is, it makes the universe feel dangerous and requires you to actually know a bit about fighting to bounty hunt successfully (or have a lot of friends and always attack from an advantage WWII style).

Some Ships we get from stock are hell to circle AI via Lateral thrusts, FA OFF switching and Boost but you must Engineer them to make them catch up and turn as fast. Then never joist but attack at an angle and from rear if you have patience to manoeuvre. Right now I never have any trouble with AI ever and learn to always mix Thrusters especially side-strafes on occasion if they face you as you may get Rails/Plasma/Missles thrown at you. I always carry PD and actyually chaff rarely. Quite seriously I hardly ever get hit!

My big issue, and the problem I have been trying to pin down, is getting behind an enemy and staying there with my nose on him without us ending up in a nose to nose circle strafe where neither of us win. Thats why i generally have been just boosting past them when the nose to nose stuff starts.

 

[MickyG1982]

I'll give you a small hint...

Flight Assist OFF

Seriously though, the AI reacts to how you fly & the easiest way to change what they do is to adjust how you yourself fly...

 

[Rob_the_Sparky]

Would be interested in hearing from FA off pilots as I fly FA on for small ship combat but have found it vey useful when flying big ships to turn faster. Anaconda in particular.

 

[goemon]

Would be interested in hearing from FA off pilots as I fly FA on for small ship combat but have found it vey useful when flying big ships to turn faster. Anaconda in particular.

massively depends on ships. the DBE for exampel wins massively flown faoff, and my impression is there are some other small ships like it.

also, in most cases faoff means no fixed weapons. running faoff and fixed on a twitchy ship like an eagle will bring down your actual dps a lot ... or at least in my case.

 

[LastZeroFighter]

From my experience trying out FA off, it seems that the viper doesnt really benefit from it much as FA off doesnt actually improve its turn rate or anything like that but then again i am still not very good at flying FA off so I will need to keep working with it.

 

[the100thmonkey]

You're right on the money about the Viper. It just really doesn't turn well, so it tends to punish piloting mistakes.

It has its strengths though; it's just a very different ship from other dedicated fighters except, arguably, the Fer de Lance.

To get the most out of the Viper Mk. III, you need to be very aware of its weight. It's a heavy ship for class 3 thrusters, and a combat fit can easily put it over the thruster optimal mass, which has a detrimental impact on its performance. Aim to keep the weight below 100t and you should be fine.

 

[Ian Skippy]

So can someone confirm if boosting up, down, or neither is the fastest turn rate, It seems like boosting up doesnt help my viper all that much but boosting down is good for gaining distance and positioning if managed properly.

Thrusting in the same direction as you are pitching keeps the turn-angle shortest, but it takes longer to aim towards the opponent. Thrusting away from your pitch direction gets you your opponent in sight sooner, but the turn is wider so you end further away. The Viper has amazing acceleration on all thrusters, use that to your advantage. And at higher difficulty: forget 'dogfighting'. That only works against low-lvl AI and beginner cmdrs. You are in space with 6DOF, any decent pilot can cancel a dogfight at any given time anyway.

 

[LastZeroFighter]

So far the Viper has proven to be a really capable fighter for me, I have at this point decided that if the AI wants to facetank all my damage, they are welcome to as I have been getting pretty good at out DPSing the AI in these head to head fights (except railgun guys, screw those guys). The Vipers strong shields really give it an edge in fighter vs fighter stuff and Ive started using a sort of corkscrew attack with my thrusters while moving towards an oncoming enemy, it seems this throws off their aim to a reasonable degree. So far I havent actually died in a 1v1 fight in my viper, only to a bunch of guys teaming up on me and knocking out my engines while I tried to flee in a CZ.

 

[goemon]

(except railgun guys, screw those guys).... sort of corkscrew attack ...

the AI will always try to hit with both its railguns... it runs symetrical loadouts almost all the time... and yaw is slower than pitch in this game... so if you combine your corkscrew with yawing initially to come from the side, and force the AI to try a turning battle yawing, while you pitch and roll, you are golden with the viper mkIII.

nice to see somebody working out what is working for him!

if you like that out-dpsing, give fragment cannons in the mediums a try. you need to get really close.

also, asymmetrical loadouts are good for that kind of wrestling battles