How to fix the game: Overhaul the Insurance system

[babelfisch]

EDIT Please read the thread before posting, it looks like I suck at explaining and so far nobody got what I am suggesting. I'll try to re write the OP once I have some time...

Will this really fix the game? Probably not.
Does the game need to be fixed? I don't know.
Is it clickbait? Yes.

The Problem:

Credits in the game are either meaningless or too meaningful. You can lose everything you achieved after hundreds of hours in a few seconds. That's why most players fly with numerous rebuys, avoiding all risks. But games are no fun without risk. Currently the game only offers two experiences (in regards to risk): Elite: Iron Man and Elite: Boring Man.
That's one of the reasons players don't get this Han Solo feeling, living on the edge and stuff. Sure, Han Solo can lose a lot, but he'll never lose everything and will always recover in some way. How many times did this happen to you in ED?

The Solution:
Overhaul the insurance and replacement system. This requires one important change: Our ships no longer blow up this also allows various gameplay opportunities and explains why we never die. They get severly damaged instead (all modules to 0%). The rebuy screen now allows you to repair all modules up to 100%, if you have the cash. Otherwise you may leave an unneeded module completely unrepaired or fix everything to 10% leaving you with a gimped ship (until you make enough money to completely repair it again). Sure, this basically takes risk away because you can no longer lose everything, but who flies without rebuys anyway? I think this would encourage people to risk more and make the game more interesting.
The rebuy screen will be no more. It will be a repair screen instead. This also requires complete damage models for each ship, get working Frontier!

The Side Effects:
As said above, this finally explains why we don't die. Because we don't die. With space legs and stuff coming this also allows various new game mechanics, like get taken prisoner and reclaim your ship, or call the ship rats and let them tow you to the next ship yard. Additionally it strenghtens the relationship to your ship. It's no longer a new one everytime you blow up, but your good old (partly) repaired Millenium Falcon.

Thoughts?

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Presumably we'd need to be able to request a tow to the nearest station with repair facilities? Which would get added to our debt?

 

[StiTch]

How can ye actually say you're encouraging players to take risk by removing risk?

There'd be no risk for anyone to take!

I am sure there's a better solution out there, but it can never be just "remove risk". Because that's not actually improving anything.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Will this really fix the game? Probably not.
Does the game need to be fixed? I don't know.
Is it clickbait? Yes.

The Problem:

Credits in the game are either meaningless or too meaningful. You can lose everything you achieved after hundreds of hours in a few seconds. That's why most players fly with numerous rebuys, avoiding all risks. But games are no fun without risk. Currently the game only offers two experiences (in regards to risk): Elite: Iron Man and Elite: Boring Man.
That's one of the reasons players don't get this Han Solo feeling, living on the edge and stuff. Sure, Han Solo can lose a lot, but he'll never lose everything and will always recover in some way. How many times did this happen to you in ED?

The Solution:
Overhaul the insurance and replacement system. This requires one important change: Our ships no longer blow up this also allows various gameplay opportunities and explains why we never die. They get severly damaged instead (all modules to 0%). The rebuy screen now allows you to repair all modules up to 100%, if you have the cash. Otherwise you may leave an unneeded module completely unrepaired or fix everything to 10% leaving you with a gimped ship (until you make enough money to completely repair it again). Sure, this basically takes risk away because you can no longer lose everything, but who flies without rebuys anyway? I think this would encourage people to risk more and make the game more interesting.
The rebuy screen will be no more. It will be a repair screen instead. This also requires complete damage models for each ship, get working Frontier!

The Side Effects:
As said above, this finally explains why we don't die. Because we don't die. With space legs and stuff coming this also allows various new game mechanics, like get taken prisoner and reclaim your ship, or call the ship rats and let them tow you to the next ship yard. Additionally it strenghtens the relationship to your ship. It's no longer a new one everytime you blow up, but your good old (partly) repaired Millenium Falcon.

Thoughts?

Could work. How would it work when you are at beagles point and have a bad landing and all modules are at zero. Can we scavange materials to fix up our ships or what happends there. Do we pay for a repair ship to come out to us to fix us up with repair limpets?

I don't mind the idea, but it would need expanding upon.

- - - Updated - - -

How can ye actually say you're encouraging players to take risk by removing risk?

There'd be no risk for anyone to take!

I am sure there's a better solution out there, but it can never be just "remove risk". Because that's not actually improving anything.

We would have to assume the repair work would be a lot more expensive. It used to be, but it got so bad that it was cheaper to self desturct then repair. At the moment, there is no risk anywaya apart from financial, which is what this would be replacing. It's just one financial risk replacing it with another financial risk.

 

[babelfisch]

How can ye actually say you're encouraging players to take risk by removing risk?

There'd be no risk for anyone to take!

I am sure there's a better solution out there, but it can never be just "remove risk". Because that's not actually improving anything.

Please show me a veteran player who fell in the insurance trap. It only happens once to new players (and only if they didn't read the manual). There is no risk if you have several rebuys. A repair system could be more costly overall while still being fair. It actually adds more risk to the game.

 

[StiTch]

We would have to assume the repair work would be a lot more expensive. It used to be, but it got so bad that it was cheaper to self desturct then repair. At the moment, there is no risk anywaya apart from financial, which is what this would be replacing. It's just one financial risk replacing it with another financial risk.

No, it isn't.

The current system means that if you have a bad run of things in a bigger ship you can be put in a situation where, should you fail, you will lose that ship in its entirety and the mods on it.

OP's suggestion effectively boils down to "all as normal but you can't lose your ship ever. If you would have to pay for rebuy you don't have, we'll just sorta hide the ship over here until you can cover the expenses".

There are undoubtedly better solutions to the present - perhaps if the karma system ties into it - but I don't at all see what this does for the game that isn't just appeasing players that are mortified at the concept of actual risk/loss.

Please show me a veteran player who fell in the insurance trap. It only happens once to new players (and only if they didn't read the manual). There is no risk if you have several rebuys. A repair system could be more costly overall while still being fair. It actually adds more risk to the game.

I didn't say veteran players fall in the insurance trap regularly.

As I said though your proposition does not add risk. It physically cannot. All you have done is allow the situation to resume effectively as normal, with one real change: if you run out of money your ship doesn't poof, but waits until you do have the money.

It doesn't matter how you try to twist that, it's not adding risk.

Again, there are better ways to handle insurance. Not denying that. But this isn't it.

 

[babelfisch]

Could work. How would it work when you are at beagles point and have a bad landing and all modules are at zero. Can we scavange materials to fix up our ships or what happends there. Do we pay for a repair ship to come out to us to fix us up with repair limpets?

I don't mind the idea, but it would need expanding upon.

Good points, which is why I posted in Dangerous Discussion rather than Suggestions. I don't think the idea is fully fleshed out yet, but it could have some potential.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it isn't.

The current system means that if you have a bad run of things in a bigger ship you can be put in a situation where, should you fail, you will lose that ship in its entirety and the mods on it.

OP's suggestion effectively boils down to "all as normal but you can't lose your ship ever. If you would have to pay for rebuy you don't have, we'll just sorta hide the ship over here until you can cover the expenses".

There are undoubtedly better solutions to the present - perhaps if the karma system ties into it - but I don't at all see what this does for the game that isn't just appeasing players that are mortified at the concept of actual risk/loss.

The current system just means that you jump in a smaller ship once you are below 5 rebuys. There is NO risk to it.

PS
My proposal doesn't mean we hide your ship, it means it will be very gimped. Remember when Han Solo couldn't escape?

 

[StiTch]

The current system just means that you jump in a smaller ship once you are below 5 rebuys. There is NO risk to it.

PS
My proposal doesn't mean we hide your ship, it means it will be very gimped. Remember when Han Solo couldn't escape?

Again, I didn't say the current system was perfect.

And how is "instead of losing your ship, it just becomes a bit crap" constitute balance/risk in the game? I mean come on dude, you literally admitted this in OP...are you just arguing with anyone that isn't 100% behind your suggestion regardless of what you're arguing about?

Sure, this basically takes risk away because you can no longer lose everything, but who flies without rebuys anyway?

This culture of "if all it does is remove risk, it's an okay move" really needs to die. FD repeatedly make it clear that risk is essential, or we wouldn't be able to lose our ships in the first place. There has to be a better answer than "to improve ED, stop us losing anything ever and make it super easy to achieve everything".

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No, it isn't.

The current system means that if you have a bad run of things in a bigger ship you can be put in a situation where, should you fail, you will lose that ship in its entirety and the mods on it.

OP's suggestion effectively boils down to "all as normal but you can't lose your ship ever. If you would have to pay for rebuy you don't have, we'll just sorta hide the ship over here until you can cover the expenses".

There are undoubtedly better solutions to the present - perhaps if the karma system ties into it - but I don't at all see what this does for the game that isn't just appeasing players that are mortified at the concept of actual risk/loss.

You have a bad run, as soon as you don't have enough for rebuy, you jump into a smaller ship to get the rebuy back. Sorry but there really isn't any risk at all, unless you do something that is really dumb.

But even so with this system if you don't have cash for repairs which would be more expensive then a rebuy, you would still need to fly other ships until you could afford the repair work. So your big expensive ship would be out of commission until you get more cash.

It would also make more sense in a lore situation as well, as your engineered upgrades are not actually destroyed and magically recreated at the same spec, which technically shouldn't be possible in lore.

 

[dafrandle]

you got my vote

also idea -- if were talking about risk add a reputation mechanic that affect the way you interact with the game -- if you a flying around in a junker at 10% everything you loose reputation

for this to work your reputation would have to be a lot more malleable than credits -- or it would be the same thing with a new coat of paint


also under this selection flying around strapped for cash in a ship with 10% everything (hull, power generator) -- you can't do with that. hell you might not even be able to jump out of where you got blowed up.
This is a big risk -- but you can play with it.
As the game currently is: you are fine until you're not fine -- this proposal would allow a scale of risk.

you could have this scenario: "i might get blowed up with this but i can escape after that and regroup, if i don't i make a lot of monney".
as the game currently is you DON'T take risk like this

"i do that and if i die i rebuy"
that's not a risk -- so you lost 3 million from your massive credit balance, big whoop. If you didn't have that balance you wouldn't have taken the risk.

in this proposed system -- if you have the balance to repair, effectively, nothing changes

if you lack the balance to repair you can still fly and know that if the unfortunate happens you can come back from it in a week or so instead of the 6 months it took you to get there in the first place.

 

[MickyG1982]

All you need is a method of deferred rebuy.

Can't afford to rebuy your ship now? It gets impounded & kept until you can.

You still end up in a smaller ship / sidey but only have to earn enough to get the rebuy rather than your whole ship, it's still yours.

(I'd up the rebuy too if this happens - kind've a pay 5% now or 10% later kind of thing - for admin charges)

 

[StiTch]

You have a bad run, as soon as you don't have enough for rebuy, you jump into a smaller ship to get the rebuy back. Sorry but there really isn't any risk at all, unless you do something that is really dumb.

But even so with this system if you don't have cash for repairs which would be more expensive then a rebuy, you would still need to fly other ships until you could afford the repair work. So your big expensive ship would be out of commission until you get more cash.

It would also make more sense in a lore situation as well, as your engineered upgrades are not actually destroyed and magically recreated at the same spec, which technically shouldn't be possible in lore.

Come on, I'm not trying to be directly confrontational here, but I AM wondering if I am a dream.

So far I've had one debate on whether this adds risk even though OP actually said it removes risk, and now you've literally said to me "the current system is inadequate because once you run out of money you just jump in a smaller ship for a bit, but with THIS system, if you run out of money, you get to just jump in a smaller ship for a bit".

Spoiler

Don't try and justify it by saying the current system is crap because yes it is. What I am confused about is that this solution IS the current system, only if you fall into that trap of not having rebuy (well repair costs dressed up in this case), you keep your ship while you earn money back up.

It's a dressed up "stop me risking my ships" thread, which will be appealing to many forumites, though I have faith FD won't fall for such a poor move.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Come on, I'm not trying to be directly confrontational here, but I AM wondering if I am a dream.

So far I've had one debate on whether this adds risk even though OP actually said it removes risk, and now you've literally said to me "the current system is inadequate because once you run out of money you just jump in a smaller ship for a bit, but with THIS system, if you run out of money, you get to just jump in a smaller ship for a bit".

Spoiler

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/26/2604c8c350d537bb08322a3ea7a94a0fcf8606b56e39ba1f62301224aa417e84.jpg

Don't try and justify it by saying the current system is crap because yes it is. What I am confused about is that this solution IS the current system, only if you fall into that trap of not having rebuy (well repair costs dressed up in this case), you keep your ship while you earn money back up.

It's a dressed up "stop me risking my ships" thread, which will be appealing to many forumites, though I have faith FD won't fall for such a poor move.

I am not justifying anything. I didn't come up with the idea and already see flaws in it. I am being devils advocate here. The only risk in the game is financial and time. If you want real risk, just get rid of insurance and have it when your ship is destroyed, its gone for good, modules and everything.

All this new version do is add a bit more financial risk and remove some of the time risk. I have already pointed out flaws for people who are out exploring. Instead of pooing on it, why don't you look at ways of making it better.

 

[JW667]

I agree with StiTch, you will be taking away risk.

At a certain point, rebuys are a non-issue anyway.
Only when you're flying one of the big three fully a-rated and maxed out, they can become a credit sink with a rediculous rebuy.
If you want those people to take more risks, maybe put a cap on the very large rebuys.

 

[babelfisch]

This culture of "if all it does is remove risk, it's an okay move" really needs to die. FD repeatedly make it clear that risk is essential, or we wouldn't be able to lose our ships in the first place. There has to be a better answer than "to improve ED, stop us losing anything ever and make it super easy to achieve everything".

That's not what I said. I am interested in your arguments, but please don't derail the thread by posting nonsense.

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Again, I didn't say the current system was perfect.

And how is "instead of losing your ship, it just becomes a bit crap" constitute balance/risk in the game? I mean come on dude, you literally admitted this in OP...are you just arguing with anyone that isn't 100% behind your suggestion regardless of what you're arguing about?

No, I am arguing because I want the suggestion to be water proof before posting it in suggestions. Maybe I'll get there by listening to your arguments, maybe not. If you try to make this into a personal battle I am no longer interested in your feedback. I got your point, it looks like you didn't get mine. I'll try to come up with a solution to your problem.

PS
It looks like you are assuming my goal would be to take risk away. It's not. Quite the opposite, we are just talking about different forms of risk, so far you you didn't understand which form of risk I am talking about. Maybe I did a poor job in explaining it.

PPS
What's riskier? Fly in a ship and do a mission when all your systems are at 100% or when all your systems are at 10% and you experience malfunctions? The former happens with the current system, the latter is possible with my suggestion.

 

[Bobbydylan]

How to fix the game: Go read the DDF and start developing those ideas into the game rather then the placeholder mechanics we currently have.

 

[babelfisch]

How to fix the game: Go read the DDF and start developing those ideas into the game rather then the placeholder mechanics we currently have.

How to derail the thread? Ask Bobby to post on it. Well, given the clickbait title it kind of deserved it.

 

[KING5TON]

IMO the insurance system currently is fine.
What isn't fine is the scaling of rewards for the bigger ships to offset the large cost of rebuys.

i.e. when you're in the smaller cheaper ships if you die your rebuy equates to a few minutes worth of work. In the larger late game ships if you die your rebuy equates to hours of work.

I think my rebuy is about 7.5 million for my underspecced Conda. So about 2 to 3 hours of bounty hunting grind.

Due to bugs and other issues you can potentially die through no fault of your own and having to spend hours grinding to get back to where you were is a massive turn off.

 

[Bobbydylan]

How to derail the thread? Ask Bobby to post on it. Well, given the clickbait title it kind of deserved it.

Hey, all I'm trying to point out is that lack of idea's isn't FDev's problem. They have a problem turning those idea's into gameaplay.

 

[babelfisch]

Hey, all I'm trying to point out is that lack of idea's isn't FDev's problem. They have a problem turning those idea's into gameaplay.

I know, sorry, I wasn't entirely serious