How to make griefing more fun

[[VR] Zakk]

Okay, now that I got your attention...

Seriously, though - yes, this is the 997th thread about what FDev could do about griefing. Many (if not all) of these ideas have probably been posted before. Still, it's a collection of things that did cross my mind over time, and I tried to convert them into a basic concept. You can love it, hate it, or be bored by it - I'm looking forward to any feedback.

My main goal (and that's why the thread topic is not pure clickbait) is not to do away with griefing, or to punish players for a PvP piracy play-style. However, I would increase the risk a little, which would make griefing more challenging. And thus, even more fun, at least to those who love a challenge.

Because, let's face it: right now, griefing is not much of a risk. If you have enough credits, you can buy Condas by the dozen and use them to ram players with smaller vessels to death, just for the fun of it. Even if you do lose a ship every once in a while, so what? If your credit account is in the billions, the occasional re-buy won't bother you. Whereas the young commander in the Cobra that has just been rammed to death may struggle for a while, to recover the credits for his re-buy.

FDev introduced a lot of game elements that serve no other purpose than to avoid rich players being able to buy success. PvP piracy is the only part in the game where that doesn't apply. If you have a lot of credits, you can buy yourself piracy success.

My aim is not to do away with PvP piracy, but to up the ante for those who want to be pirates.

In order to do that, I would suggest a "PvP Wanted Level". This would be handled like points on your driver's license. Whenever you destroy another human commander who had no bounty on him, you will get a point added to your pilot license.

The number of points you have on your pilot license determines how you'd be treated in-game.

0 points - clean as a whistle.
No penalties.

1-4 points - occasional offender.
No general penalties, other than the bounties you got on you anyway when you earned these points.

5-14 points - repeated offender.
Higher insurance premium: 25%, instead of 5%, for every re-buy.
New bounties on you are twice as high as normal.

15-29 points - habitual offender.
Loss of insurance cover - 100% re-buy costs, but you still get your engineered components back.
New bounties on you are 3x higher.
Hi-sec systems will treat you as hostile.

30-49 points - chronic offender.
Heavy insurance penalty: 200% re-buy costs, if you want your engineered components back.
New bounties on you are 5x higher.
Hi- and med-sec systems will treat you as hostile.

50-100 points - outlawed.
No insurance cover. If you lose your ship, you also lose your engineered components.
New bounties on you are 10x higher.
All systems other than Anarchy ones will treat you as hostile.
Your name, bounty level and last system you jumped into will be published on Galnet.

Every month, 25 points will be taken off your license, allowing you to return to a lawful playing style, if you wish to do that.

This points system will increase the risk for PvP pirates, but would also offer a new kind of reward to them. I'm sure there are quite a few commanders out there who'd love to see their names published on Galnet's "most wanted" list, and aim for the #1 bounty spot.

But it would make it more difficult for PvP pirates to loiter around points of interest, as they'd immediately be treated as hostile by local system authority vessels.

And, since an outlawed commander would soon accumulate a notable amount of bounty on his head, there would certainly be more players trying to hunt him down. Eventually, one of these PvP bounty hunters will succeed. And without insurance cover, that will sting, even if the pirate has a very comfortable bank account. Because he will still need to manually buy a new ship and components, and re-engineer them all.

However, to make this more fun for both the PvP pirates and the PvP bounty hunters, FDev would finally have to start penalizing combat logging. If you drop out of the game during a PvP battle, you lose the fight - easy as that. So pulling that network cable won't help you anymore. Next time you log in, you will find yourself at the re-buy screen.

Maybe give players 1 free re-buy every 3 months, for the rare case of a genuine network error during a combat. Other than that, if you are in a combat situation with another human commander, and your network connection drops, you get destroyed and the other commander gets the kill.

This would make both piracy and bounty-hunting more rewarding.

Overall, the idea behind this approach is to remove the trolling aspect of griefing, and lead to more serious and immersive piracy. Ramming other players in the mail slot of Jameson Memorial will stop being fun when the system starts treating you as hostile. This will increase security in hi-sec systems and around points of interest, e.g. community goal sites.

Pirates will instead focus on higher-value targets, to make it worth their while. Which is okay - if you are hauling a T9 load of low-temperature diamonds into an Anarchy system, you should expect some action.

It would also add an entirely new PvP feature - PvP bounty hunting. Check Galnet's "most wanted" list and go after that outlawed guy with 10+m CR on his head. Expect a heavy fight once you find him, but know that if you manage to shoot him down, you didn't only just earn a lot of money, but also stripped a griefer off his engineered components that he won't be able to simply re-buy.

And for those who prefer the life of a pirate, it may be more challenging, knowing that the more you pillage, the more bounty hunters will be after you. And if losing your engineered components is too much of a risk to you, just keep your kills below 25 a month. That should still allow for quite a few highly profitable heists, but you may have to do without the random ramming of other commanders in the mail slot.

So - that's the idea. Don't do away with piracy. Just up the ante for those who overdo it.

What do you think - yay or nay?

 

[vrsterling]

I think that's the most awesome idea I've heard yet on the subject. It adds some new risk vs. reward aspects to the whole "pirate life" game play. It also makes PvP bounty hunting more attractive. Consider yourself repped!

 

[SpeakerToAliens]

What a great idea. +Rep.

Though I think giving them 25 points a month back is far too high. One point a week would be better.

 

[Cruise]

Absolutely great idea +1

 

[ethelred]

It's good, but there should always be a mechanism where the pirate can buy back everything- even if it's at 200% cost.

Lore wise this could be explained by the pirate having an extensive underground network to facilitate their escape pod & ship being rebuilt at their pirate base.

Don't underestimate how many funds some pilots have.

Sure, play your own way but be aware of the consequences.

I'd also like to see specific rewards for "killers" as in psychopath missions/engineers. It would be good to see terrorist groups in game, but I doubt this level of extremism would pass muster.

 

[Jaiotu]

The insurance system could be used to put an end to a lot of "griefing".

A few weeks ago I was rear-ended in traffic (not in game, in real life). I didn't pay a single penny to get the damage repaired. The person behind me, who was at fault in the accident, paid their insurance who in turn paid to have my vehicle repaired.

If a player destroys another (unwanted) players ship outside a Haz Res or Conflict Zone then the offender should foot the insurance bill. I think the number one reason why there is so much salt in these cases is because of the feeling that the offender is getting away with something without consequences.

 

[Sooden]

back in the day (15 years ago). i used to play mmo Rpgs... there where Griefers, and heres' what happened;

- If they attacked someone, they where 'wanted' with a fast cool down, it allowed for mistake.
- If they killed someone 'they where wanted for a longer time'.
- If the killed while wanted 'They where criminal' there name tag went red.
- If they kept killing, this red level wanted stacked up and could take week to clear.
(kinda like whats said here, Kinda like NielF thread, and some of what i've said before)


Death did not reduce the duration (this fixes the fact you can re-buy and not remove a threat from the game,and the sidewinder exploit), and if they where killed while 'red' they have something like a 200% grater chance of doping their items

while 'red' they could not enter towns without the powerful guard attacking them. This also meant they could not re-spawn in town... so they re spawn in a 'jail' that only had storage options... This location was also surrounded by many player how would kill the Griefers as they tried to leave it, for fun (ironic lol)

Not one of the Griefers complained about this idea... they though it was only fair, and accepted it as part of their game play. See , there was a time when Griefing took effort, unlike today, were its just spotlit brats that cant see how the game has made it so easy for them to do so (idiots!)

Fdev is handhold, cuddling the Griefers ... letting them 'play it thier way' at the expense of other player. Come on fDev, come on David Braben, you must have played games 'back in the day' with such ruels, it was the norm (not the candy , feel good game play we have today, were we cant upset the Griefers!).

so i happy to see these sorts of posts, even if they go over and over the same point ... ty for the post OP

knock this problem on the head Fdev before more Griefers group rely on the current system, and if Griefers become a big problem (they arn't reall atm), then .. well.. it will have be your fault for not listening.

 

[dayrth]

Best idea I've heard on the subject.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

I wouold say no as piracy right now is the lowest paying profession in the game and this would make the risk way outweigh reward which it already does in some ways. We have to work alot harder to replace a rebuy and it takes us alot longer than any profession out there in the game and now you want to make it even worse. This will just increase what you call griefing as the griefers will look for ways to get other players wanted. Piracy is the only profession that to make our rebuys back at a decent rate has to play a profeesion we dont want and your idea of removing engineering for our deaths would make many of the honest pirates quit the game if implemented.

If you are gonna try to make suggestions for piracy try PVP piracy first so you can see how hard and badly balanced it already is compared to other professions

 

[Sooden]

I wouold say no as piracy right now is the lowest paying profession in the game and this would make the risk way outweigh reward which it already does in some ways. We have to work alot harder to replace a rebuy and it takes us alot longer than any profession out there in the game and now you want to make it even worse. This will just increase what you call griefing as the griefers will look for ways to get other players wanted. Piracy is the only profession that to make our rebuys back at a decent rate has to play a profeesion we dont want and your idea of removing engineering for our deaths would make many of the honest pirates quit the game if implemented.

If you are gonna try to make suggestions for piracy try PVP piracy first so you can see how hard and badly balanced it already is compared to other professions

Can undertand where you are coming from, but a chance has to happen. If i was you (and i am thinking of becoming a pirate) i would start backing the ideas that don't impact pirates, infact help that area of game play , *such as*

Not trying to steal the thread, just showing there are lot of ideas out there, and none Griefers especially pirates, need to get on board with some of them, so they can make sure pirates and Griefers are not put into one basket

Added: i'm currently putting off playing a pirate style because of the way the game is. As it so easy to Grief, with little comeback.. players getting interdicted assume it a Griefer attack... If people felt that the most likely worst outcome of an interdiction was 'you get shot up a lot, cost in repairs' as killing someone would be costly to the killer, and a last resort, the dynamic would change.

Pirates pirate, they milk the cow, not kill it!

Added:added: and maybe, with pirate interaction having more of a social aspect... some pirates can become know for being tough(TUFF) but fair, true to their word and interdictions end in cargo just being handed over (like when pirates raise the flag, in the hope the other ship surrenders without a fight)... Imagine if your reputation (in play style) started to net you easier cash as a pirates... cant happen till the Griefing issue is fixed!

 

[dayrth]

I wouold say no as piracy right now is the lowest paying profession in the game and this would make the risk way outweigh reward which it already does in some ways. We have to work alot harder to replace a rebuy and it takes us alot longer than any profession out there in the game and now you want to make it even worse. This will just increase what you call griefing as the griefers will look for ways to get other players wanted. Piracy is the only profession that to make our rebuys back at a decent rate has to play a profeesion we dont want and your idea of removing engineering for our deaths would make many of the honest pirates quit the game if implemented.

If you are gonna try to make suggestions for piracy try PVP piracy first so you can see how hard and badly balanced it already is compared to other professions

This is the issue of course. Pirating is not something that needs to be restricted. Indiscriminate killing just for the LOLs is. The problem is how to address the one without punishing the other.

 

[Reav]

You want to make the game fun for murderhobos huh, then talk about permanently removing their ship and components and back to sidewinder!!!

Yeah you are biased.

 

[Strideynet]

I think there is definitely a line to find between supporting all styles of gameplay and ensuring the experience is enjoyable for everyone. I believe this kind of a solution would allow people to continue to choose what play-style they want to follow and still enforce some kind of a discouragement from becoming a pure ganker.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

Can undertand where you are coming from, but a chance has to happen. If i was you (and i am thinking of becoming a pirate) i would start backing the ideas that don't impact pirates, infact help that area of game play , *such as*

Not trying to steal the thread, just showing there are lot of ideas out there, and none Griefers especially pirates, need to get on board with some of them, so they can make sure pirates and Griefers are not put into one basket

Added: i'm currently putting off playing a pirate style because of the way the game is. As it so easy to Grief, with little comeback.. players getting interdicted assume it a Griefer attack... If people felt that the most likely worst outcome of an interdiction was 'you get shot up a lot, cost in repairs' as killing someone would be costly to the killer, and a last resort, the dynamic would change.

Pirates pirate, they milk the cow, not kill it!

Added:added: and maybe, with pirate interaction having more of a social aspect... some pirates can become know for being tough(TUFF) but fair, true to their word and interdictions end in cargo just being handed over (like when pirates raise the flag, in the hope the other ship surrenders without a fight)... Imagine if your reputation (in play style) started to net you easier cash as a pirates... cant happen till the Griefing issue is fixed!

This is the issue of course. Pirating is not something that needs to be restricted. Indiscriminate killing just for the LOLs is. The problem is how to address the one without punishing the other.

Problem is there is nothing that is gonna be strong enough to stop the constant murderers that will not kill piracy. Piracy lacks to few rewards and tools for the profession as it is and to make it worse is not the answer. There is really no way to stop 1 without harming the other

 

[TopCat160]

I wouold say no as piracy right now is the lowest paying profession in the game and this would make the risk way outweigh reward which it already does in some ways.

Exactly. Just like IRL where most habitual criminals don't get away with it for very long. To be very profitable and avoid capture as a career criminal should be hard. That's the mark of a civilised society.

I think the ideas in the OP are excellent, and it wouldn't be hard to make it a bit easier to avoid the punishments by scaling them back in anarchy and low security systems.

 

[[VR] Zakk]

Thanks a lot for the feedback, commanders! o7

Though I think giving them 25 points a month back is far too high. One point a week would be better.

The whole thing might need some fine-tuning, so take the actual numbers with a grain of salt.

My main idea was to allow players to return from piracy to lawful lifestyle in a rather short amount of time, while keeping them wanted or outlawed as long as they keep shooting down other players.

Another option would be to take 1 point off their license every X hyperspace jumps. That would allow pirates to clean their license by grinding jumps. Not the most immersive solution, but it would follow how FDev approaches this kind of problem throughout the game.

It's good, but there should always be a mechanism where the pirate can buy back everything- even if it's at 200% cost.
...
Don't underestimate how many funds some pilots have.

That was exactly the reason why I'd suggest to introduce an ultimate penalty that will make them lose their engineered modules, without an option to re-buy.

My idea was to balance the penalty system, to allow a certain amount of piracy without facing the ultimate consequence. You can still go on heists, intercept traders with valuable cargo, etc. As long as you keep your number of criminal PvP kills below e.g. 50 a month, you will be wanted, but not outlawed. So if you meet a better opponent, you can still rebuy, even if at higher costs.

Only if you kill other commanders by the dozens, you will be outlawed and may lose your modules if you get shot down. It would be the ultimate risk, that would hurt even extremely rich pirates.

As I wrote above, the actual numbers may need to be fine-tuned, but that's the basic idea.

One thing I forgot to mention in the OP - I'd only consider kills outside of Anarchy systems and conflict zones. Anarchy should be free-for-all. That's what the concept of anarchy is all about, after all

If a player destroys another (unwanted) players ship outside a Haz Res or Conflict Zone then the offender should foot the insurance bill. I think the number one reason why there is so much salt in these cases is because of the feeling that the offender is getting away with something without consequences.

I had considered that option, but I don't like it. It would make piracy too expensive. Especially if you followed the real-life approach, that would require the pirate not just to cover the rebuy costs, but the actual ship's value (what the insurance had to cover).

But maybe that is an alternative to the ultimate penalty of losing engineered modules when you are outlawed - add the rebuy costs of the commanders the pirate shot down to the pirate's rebuy costs:

50-100 points - outlawed.
Heavy insurance penalty: 200% re-buy costs plus re-buy costs you have caused others to pay, if you want your engineered components back.
New bounties on you are 10x higher.
All systems other than Anarchy ones will treat you as hostile.
Your name, bounty level and last system you jumped into will be published on Galnet.

This could make rebuys extremely expensive, even for rich pirates. Still, I tend to like the ultimate penalty of losing the rebuy option better. It takes the pirate's funds out of the equation. They will have to take the entire journey of buying a new ship, new modules, and the grind for engineering material, to regain their old layout. That's not fun for the pirate? Well, it was not fun for the other commanders either, that he shot down on the way to gain 'outlawed' status. That's life, karma can be a female dog

I wouold say no as piracy right now is the lowest paying profession in the game and this would make the risk way outweigh reward which it already does in some ways. We have to work alot harder to replace a rebuy and it takes us alot longer than any profession out there in the game and now you want to make it even worse. This will just increase what you call griefing as the griefers will look for ways to get other players wanted. Piracy is the only profession that to make our rebuys back at a decent rate has to play a profeesion we dont want and your idea of removing engineering for our deaths would make many of the honest pirates quit the game if implemented.

If you are gonna try to make suggestions for piracy try PVP piracy first so you can see how hard and badly balanced it already is compared to other professions

That's some valuable feedback, and I have to admit that, indeed, I haven't played as a pirate myself yet.

If it is true that piracy doesn't pay enough, then this may have to be adjusted as well. It is absolutely not my goal to make piracy impossible, or remove it from the game. What I would like to reduce is the random killing of other commanders, just for the fun of it. But if you go after another commander because of what he carries in the cargo hold, that's a legitimate thing. Illegal, but legit

One thing I'd like to point out - I'd add points only to the license for actual kills. Intercept a human commander, fire a few shots at him and convince him to share some of his cargo with will earn you a bounty, but will not add points to your license.

If you say piracy isn't rewarding enough, then maybe the rewards for taking the risk and shooting a player down should be increased. Make it a rule that all cargo of the shot-down commander can be scooped. Turn that commander's exploration data and bounty vouchers into scoopable material. He'll lose them anyway. Right now, they vanish when a commander gets destroyed. Why not let others pick them up and cash them in? That would increase the reward of piracy.

Maybe even make a few ship modules scoopable. If the pirate is lucky, the engineered 6A FSD of the ship he just shot down will remain intact enough to pick it up. That would also add another reward to piracy - you may be able to get better modules by shooting down engineered ships.

Those are just a few ideas. But I fully agree with you - risk and reward of serious piracy should remain balanced. The ultimate penalties should be reserved for hardcore killers, not for commanders who try to make a living with piracy.

Pirating is not something that needs to be restricted. Indiscriminate killing just for the LOLs is. The problem is how to address the one without punishing the other.

That was exactly what I was pondering over when creating this concept idea. I don't see a reliable way to for the program to determine a pirate's intention. So the only way I see is to go over the sheer number of kills. As long as it stays within a certain limit, you won't face the ultimate penalty. Only if you kill commanders by the dozens, you may ultimately lose your ship with all its engineered modules.

A pirate who is after other players' cargo can still try to achieve his goal without killing the other commander. If the intercepted commander won't surrender, or starts fighting back, the pirate needs to make a decision: can I afford another kill? Is the reward high enough for the risk? If yes, go ahead, destroy the other guy. As long as you don't do it too often, the consequences won't be too bad.

You want to make the game fun for murderhobos huh, then talk about permanently removing their ship and components and back to sidewinder!!!

Yeah you are biased.

You will only lose it if you kill a lot - and then get killed yourself.
And you can still get your old loadout back. Just not with a "click here" option. You need to go through the full grind circle again. That's no fun, you say? Getting randomly rammed to death in the mail slot isn't, either. That's karma for you.

If you are a murderhobo, the new concept will make things more fun - if you like the ultimate challenge. It's not that much different in real life. You may get away with the odd shoplifting every now and then. Robbing a bank will get you into more serious trouble already. But if you start to kill people randomly, in some countries that will cost you your life.

With my concept, in ED, it would only cost you your ship.

 

[SpeakerToAliens]

What a great idea. +Rep.

Though I think giving them 25 points a month back is far too high. One point a week would be better.

In addition I would also multiply the penalty points awarded to the griefer by a factor based upon the difference in combat rank between the griefer and their victim (though it wouldn't work the other way around if the griefer is of a lower rank than their victim).

 

[Pyrotiger]

Well, just like engineering, after 997 attempts we've got something promising!

rep

 

[Jaylem]

Great idea, but there are a few holes,

Powerplay undermining systems often incurs serious bounties...I have 130,000 on me just from undermining Acheon's Boys to get pack hound.

Losing Engineered modules is still very punishing to players, considering the time input and chance involved.

I love the idea of a Galnet approved wide bounty and location on these criminals, but with as stated above I wouldn't be particularly fond of having the entire game universe hunt me down and loose my Engineer upgrades...they could have all my money...just not those

Otherwise I do truly like the idea...griefers and I have a score to settle. and turning a profit from wasting them has really got my attention.

Keep it up mate!

 

[patttiat]

with this many disconects and crashes in the game, impossible.