How to turn someone away from Elite

[Aleksej]

It is too early to come to any conclusions when the game is still being developed and is far away from being complete. Here is the quote from another thread:

Hello Commanders!

Just to add a developer perspective:

We totally understand that when the game fails and nukes your career it's horrible.

Unfortunately, the fact is that whilst we are working on making the game, this can and does happen unintentionally - it's the bane of pre-release software and also one of the things that beta testing specifically help us track down and fix, making release that much better.

We don't have all the systems for softening ship destruction operating yet either. There's a creditor system we want that will allow Commanders to sink into debt but retain their ship (this also adds hooks for missions and events).

There are the ranking systems that should help Commanders gauge the risk of each encounters.

There's the wing formation to allow Commanders to group up for added security.

There's a new ship insurance policy feature we're considering that will reduce or remove the cost of ship destruction for a set period.

And there's various ongoing updates to make sure that the game play spikes less often and more predictibly.

The bottom line is that I hope you guys don't give up, we're trying to make something that's a little different, very cool, and fun.

Risk is a big part of that for us - the risk is what makes success so satisfying, but we're not indifferent to the issues you testing folk are encountering - that's what this pre-release period is all about, testing our theories, tweaking them, changing them into something we feel gives the best result for the game.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

That is a general misconception. Space in games like elite and eve is dangerous because players make it dangerous. Its a winged word mostly used in the eve community. It's used to justify everything and therefore nothing. You can't justify every situation with a single phrase especially if you are the person who is responsible for making it dangerous.

Well actually the NPCs also make the game dangerous and I've had NPCs randomly attack me right outside a space station on a few occasions (and was even destroyed once before I even had time to react). I'm also regularly interdicted - most of the time these are simple enough to escape from (if you're not up for a fight or you feel you can't win), but in the future it won't be so easy to just run away and you will be up against more formidable NPCs.

Elite games have always been about danger - travelling in the Elite universe has never been safe. What you try to do is minimise the risk and take necessary precautions (such as keeping money in reserve and being aware of dangerous systems to travel through).

Basically this is true. The other side is that players always find a loop hole. Even if that means self destruction. If they are bored enough, no security can help you.

This, of course, is unavoidable - it is part of the culture of online gaming. Just because there are consequences does not mean that some players won't still kill another player occasionally for giggles, revenge or some other reason. Clearly they are prepared to deal with the consequences of their actions. I don't necessarily see a problem with that (as long as there are, in general, consequences for their actions) - it adds to the randomness of the game and means that you should be on guard at all times. This game will be boring if there is no danger element.

And why shouldn't there be the odd psycho in the game? It adds to the variety, open-world nature and freedom of choice within the Elite universe. But I suspect mindless killers will be a relatively rare thing in the game because it will be difficult to progress with such a nihilistic playstyle and they will end up on a lot of people's blacklists - they'll soon get bored and move onto another game.

But as I stated previously, the biggest danger is automatically equating a PC killing another PC as griefing. I'm not saying that there won't be any griefing in this game and neither am I condoning griefing. But let's not blow things out of proportion and scare people off playing the multiplayer version of the game.

 

[philux]

Well had a friend over tonight to show them Elite. Left Beagle 2 on a trade run and was taken out by a griefer. Needless to say that left such a poor impression on my friend it is doubtful we will see them in the game.

So for the griefer that was a Beagle 2 tonight, good job. You just proved why solo is a better way to play rather than open if one is to play at all.

Calling someone a griefer because he beat you in a multiplayer game is just childish. Time to grow up.

 

[Memnoch]

You got killed in a multiplayer game.

Where exactly did the griefing happen?

You couldn't know the situation unless it was clearly described so it could quite easily have been genuine griefing.

Regarding the quote from Sandro, with respect to going into debt and not losing your ship, I hope there is a at least the possibility of having your game go catastrophically wrong in a financial sense and being able to lose your ship and not be able to pay off the insurance. The merest possibility of this happening should exist. Otherwise everyone would be on an inevitable upward crawl to bigger and badder ships with no danger of losing them with this safety net in place.

 

[Amadeus]

This isn't C.O.D in space it's a space sandbox where you get to take on a role of your choice.

A player that wants to pretend he's a trader and make a ton of virtual cash?
Fair enough. Some may find that dull but the choice is yours.

A player wants to pretend he's a pirate? Robbing others and making his way selling his ill gotten gains? Disney made a fortune appealing to this mindset.
Fair enough.

A player that wants to play at bounty hunter? Excellent, those pirates need balancing. Hopefully the pay will improve in the next release.

A player that wants to explore and share what marvels they find?
Good on you, it's going to be a lonely journey but share your post cards.

Now,
a player that abuses a game mechanic where they can fire on a ship whilst outside the no fire zone that cannot fire back without being destroyed by the station. And doesn't even collect the cargo. In fact do you even bother to scan for cargo?
What do you get out of it? What role are you taking on in the sandbox?

Ask yourself this....
In a sandbox game where people are encouraged to take on many roles like trader/explorer/pirate/bounty hunter.
Are those people going to stick around when a small minority are regularly taken a dump in the sandbox?

I've been waiting a long time for this game, if it becomes C.O.D in space filled with sociopathic kids killing other players for no gain other to add a layer of grime to the game. It'll be a real shame.

 

[HaiderGill]

Well had a friend over tonight to show them Elite. Left Beagle 2 on a trade run and was taken out by a griefer. Needless to say that left such a poor impression on my friend it is doubtful we will see them in the game.

So for the griefer that was a Beagle 2 tonight, good job. You just proved why solo is a better way to play rather than open if one is to play at all.

My take on it is that in safe systems you should be protected by law enforcement agencies in, dodgy systems it should be risky but lucrative. We're still in beta so I'm not really judging the game yet. It's one of the reasons I wasn't going to join in the beta but the £15 offer was just too much.

As for griefers the answer are vigilante groups, guilds/organisations were traders protect each other etc, security details for profitable runs I'm willing share the profits...That's where the colour, richness the spice of life will come into ED; otherwise it will just be a bland and boring game...It is also up to us to organise our game-world the way we want our community...

 

[Globusdiablo]

I died! It's not fair!!!

Well had a friend over tonight to show them Elite. Left Beagle 2 on a trade run and was taken out by a griefer. Needless to say that left such a poor impression on my friend it is doubtful we will see them in the game.

So for the griefer that was a Beagle 2 tonight, good job. You just proved why solo is a better way to play rather than open if one is to play at all.

It' a joke right?

You got killed in the game, and it's not fair, right? Haha. Love it.

Hilarious! I love your understated irony. Tongue firmly in cheek. Keep it coming.

Fly safe Commander.

 

[eleanorsbee]

can the dev team just widen the no-fire zone at safter stations .... that way you can leave the station, and make it to a jump point without being shot at ... and if you are, the Pirate will be in the no fire zone so will be taken out by station defences ?

 

[Podge]

My take on it is that in safe systems you should be protected by law enforcement agencies in, dodgy systems it should be risky but lucrative. We're still in beta so I'm not really judging the game yet. It's one of the reasons I wasn't going to join in the beta but the £15 offer was just too much.

As for griefers the answer are vigilante groups, guilds/organisations were traders protect each other etc, security details for profitable runs I'm willing share the profits...That's where the colour, richness the spice of life will come into ED; otherwise it will just be a bland and boring game...It is also up to us to organise our game-world the way we want our community...

You understand that what you suggested in the first paragraph is a feature of *shakes with anger* eve online?

Tis Blasphemy! To suggest any features/aspects of the most succesful game in this genre be put in the elitist elite dangerous is horrific no?!!

 

[DoctorDanny]

You couldn't know the situation unless it was clearly described so it could quite easily have been genuine griefing.

Regarding the quote from Sandro, with respect to going into debt and not losing your ship, I hope there is a at least the possibility of having your game go catastrophically wrong in a financial sense and being able to lose your ship and not be able to pay off the insurance. The merest possibility of this happening should exist. Otherwise everyone would be on an inevitable upward crawl to bigger and badder ships with no danger of losing them with this safety net in place.

Fair point. I get sick and tired however of all the posters coming onto these forums, claiming they've been griefed/greifed/greeved/creebt when they are playing a multiplayer space shooter. Of course people are going to shoot you, that's part of the challenge. NPCs will also shoot you, they dont't care either if you're an elite veteran or if it is your first day in space.

Griefing is something else alltogether.

 

[Podge]

Fair point. I get sick and tired however of all the posters coming onto these forums, claiming they've been griefed/greifed/greeved/creebt when they are playing a multiplayer space shooter. Of course people are going to shoot you, that's part of the challenge. NPCs will also shoot you, they dont't care either if you're an elite veteran or if it is your first day in space.

Griefing is something else alltogether.

I'm afraid we are in the minority here at the moment

 

[teamkill]

Forgive me for asking, and it has probably already been said, but....

why didn't you start your friend on Solo play to get used to things before braving the big bad open play universe.

 

[hawkenfox]

can we please stop this greefing nonsense. if you dont want a other person to shoot you, then go play solo. In solo a NPC will "greef' you. Happy now?

He's got a point Lol. I guessed it just getting over with losing ... you win sometimes and you lose sometimes get over it ... be game try again !

 

[SjadoHawk]

Forgive me for asking, and it has probably already been said, but....

why didn't you start your friend on Solo play to get used to things before braving the big bad open play universe.

No problem asking. I did show all options of the game. Going solo does remove the community aspect of the game though. There may be common ground in group play but that still limits meeting new friends.

I am a firm believer that as the game progresses it can provide a balance for everyone even in open play. Let's face it 400 billion systems... offers a lot of options for variety.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

You understand that what you suggested in the first paragraph is a feature of *shakes with anger* eve online?

Tis Blasphemy! To suggest any features/aspects of the most succesful game in this genre be put in the elitist elite dangerous is horrific no?!!

From Elite Dangerous - Criminality, in the DDF archive (see ugly yellow parts)

Crime List

• There are a set number of recognised crimes; they come in two severities:
• Minor Crime – Punishable by fine
  • Unlawful Discharge - Unauthorized firing of weapons near a structure or ship controlled by the factional authority in the system
  • Collisions – Colliding with a ship or owned structure enough to cause damage
    • Shields soak up most collisions
    • Damage is caused when two ships collide with a certain force
    • A ship is exempt from this crime if docked or “dropped anchor”
      • “dropped anchor” is a player initiated act that takes a small amount of time and protects against the exploit of quickly coming to a stop in front of a moving ship
  • Stolen Goods – Being detected carrying stolen goods
  • Illegal Goods (Minor)– Being detected carrying goods that are classified as illegal in the current system according to the factional authority
    • Illegal goods includes passenger transporting of persons with reported crimes in the system
  • Illegal dumping – Being detected jettisoning toxic cargo
    • Jettisoning any cargo within a set distance from a dock is counted as illegal dumping
  • Obstructing Justice – ignoring a request from factional authority vessels and structures (such as fleeing instead of stopping to allow a scan or trespassing in restricted space)
• Major Crime – Punishable by attack (via Pilot’s Federation bounty/faction bounty)
  • Attack on a ship or structure– firing on and hitting an owned structure or locking on and firing at a ship
  • Murder/Ship Destruction – causing death/destruction of an owned structure
    • This includes destruction through collision
  • Illegal Goods (Major)– Being detected carrying goods that are classified as highly illegal in the current system according to the factional authority
  • Public Enemy – Failure to pay a fine for a set number of times

Jurisdiction

• With the exception of Pilot’s Federation Bounties, a crime is only ever committed within a jurisdiction; in unregulated space such as dark systems and anarchies crimes are ignored
• A jurisdiction always belongs to a faction
• The defining nature of a jurisdiction is that it contains facilities to receive information transmitted by ships
  • These facilities range from space stations and inhabited planets to automated defence stations and satellites
  • Large vessels owned by the faction also provide this functionality, effectively generating a jurisdiction in the area they occupy

Witnesses and Reporting

• Even within a jurisdiction, crimes must be witnessed in order to count as a crime
• All NPCs can act as witnesses to all crimes that don’t need special equipment to detect
  • The chance they will report it depends on
    • Their archetype (ie a pirate is unlikely to report piracy or whether they are an archetype with local law enforcement powers)
    • Whether they saw it clearly enough to be able to identify the ship (ie on distance) and they will have to perform an active scan to do so
    • The reputation of the perpetrator (communicated via a simple dialogue)
• Players can purchase cargo scanners, and for players that have achieved a high enough local status these can be equipped with secure law enforcement software that can also be used to report smuggling, for which in most jurisdictions there is a reward based on the value of contraband apprehended.
• Police patrols and occasional NPC vigilantes will also be equipped with cargo scanners, and may also do spot searches.
• Players may turn off their ‘squawk’ such that even if attacked the crime is not automatically reported.

Pilot Federation Bounties

• When a member of the Pilot’s Federation is attacked, they have the option of setting a Pilot’s Federation Bounty on their assailant, within a preset min and max credits for this
  • This action is time limited – they forfeit the ability to set a bounty after a set time elapses once they have entered a different session (eg through death or hyperspace)
  • Should their ship be destroyed by the assailant they have a limited amount of time from when their escape pod arrives at a dock to set the bounty
    • Launching from a dock forfeits this ability if not already set
  • The credit value of a bounty must be available in the player’s account, and is immediately deducted.
• A Pilot’s Federation Bounty can only be claimed by any member of the Pilot’s Federation
• The Pilot’s Federation Bounty system does not bypass local laws such as “Unlawful Discharge” that may be active so players need to bear this in mind
• A Pilot’s Federation Bounty is only removed if claimed by a bounty hunter or redeemed by the perpetrator
  • Redemption can only occur after a set significant time period has elapsed (eg 1 calendar week) and the perpetrator makes financial restitution of a significant multiplier of the bounty (eg 10x) to the Pilot’s Federation

Detection and Rap Sheet

• When a crime has been witnessed and reported it is logged to the perpetrator’s rap sheet, but this rap sheet is not visible to other ships by default unless they were direct witnesses – ships must scan the perpetrator and even then, they will only receive details out outstanding bounties applicable for the current jurisdiction(the scan automatically cross-references local authority reports) and active Pilot’s Federation bounties
  • Players may have positive reputations with certain law enforcement agencies, then the scanner will be able to look up details of crimes committed in other jurisdictions
• A ship will detect and inform its commander when it is being scanned
  • Some advanced scanners can scan without being detected
• Once a ship has been scanned, its commander’s outstanding bounties for the current jurisdiction are known to the scanning commander until the two commanders are not in the same session (discounting the ‘hot pursuit’ effect if you follow them through hyperspace)
• A commander can view their full rap sheet at any time
  • A rap sheet contains the precise breakdown of crimes that the commander has been detected committing
    • Each crime has a fine or bounty value attached to it

Right to Retaliate

• When a commander is the victim of a major crime within a jurisdiction they automatically receive the right to retaliate:
  • Their ship automatically scans the perpetrator, giving them knowledge of the outstanding bounties in the current jurisdiction
  • They count as a witness and automatically transmit the crime to the factional authority controlling the jurisdiction
  • They are allowed to attack the perpetrator with impunity in any jurisdiction controlled by the same factional authority as where the crime was witnessed and reported
• The right to retaliate does not grant immunity from prosecution in jurisdictions controlled by different factional authorities
• Note: If the commander is attacked in a jurisdiction that does not recognize the crime, the commander does not gain the right to retaliate!
• In unregulated space no crime is ever committed and any form of retaliation is acceptable

Authority Response

• Once a major crime has been reported to the factional authority that controls the jurisdiction a response is dispatched to the location – and that dispatch will be rapid – usually they would arrive by hyperspace within a minute if they respond at all.
• The size of the response is related to the severity of the crime, modified by the total amount of crimes logged for the location and the background simulation for the system
  • If the victim is present at a location when authority ships arrive the crime is instantly detected by the authority ships and they gain knowledge of the perpetrator’s rap sheet
  • If the victim is not present the authority ships will be required to scan the perpetrator to detect the crime and gain knowledge of the perpetrator’s rap sheet
• Their behaviour will in general lean towards scanning all vessels once they arrive but may be influenced by reputations and ship appearance to the point that a scan is guaranteed or never initiated
• The standard response for a major crime will be to attack directly once a faction bounty has been detected though we may have archetype variations for law enforcement where they give a warning – giving the option of a bribe or of buying off the bounty at 10x (or more) there and then.
• Once a crime has been detected by a factional authority vessel/structure whilst an authority ship remains in direct contact all associated ships and structures of the faction also have knowledge of the perpetrator’s rap sheet. Otherwise they have to choose to look it up as normal.
  • This knowledge persists according to rules described earlier in the Detection section
• Multiplayer - crimes against human commanders that cause a bounty to exist make the criminal able to be matched with any other human commander present in the “all players” group
• This punishment lasts for a set amount of game time

Consequences
Fines

• When the player is witnessed committing a crime punishable by fine, they immediately accrue the fine and have a set period of time in which to visit a representative of the appropriate faction/Pilot’s Federation and pay it
  • Failure to pay within the time allotted increases the fine
  • Once a commander has failed to pay within the allotted time a set amount of times they commit the public enemy crime for the faction/Pilot’s Federation
• A commander always has access to his crime sheet to view fines

Faction Bounties

• A faction bounty can be claimed by anyone that destroys the perpetrator whilst having knowledge of their rap sheet
  • Knowledge of the rap sheet can be obtained via a scan of the perpetrator or from an event or mission (which acts the same as if the perpetrator had been scanned)
  • The destroyed husk of a perpetrator can be scanned to obtain its ID and then look up its rap sheet – though attacking a ship without having knowledge of its rap sheet would itself be a crime, so it is safer to “scan first, shoot second”
  • The commander that delivered the killing blow on a perpetrator obtains a bounty data item ‘voucher’ if they have knowledge of the perpetrator’s rap sheet
    • This voucher can be traded in at a dock that contains a representative of the appropriate factional authority to claim the bounty
    • The voucher can also be traded between players (presumably at a discount) to cover players that might be unable to cash in the voucher due to crimes of their own.
• When a commander with a rap sheet gets their ship destroyed, any faction bounties are immediately turned into fines via a conversion factor
  • The commander’s “failure to pay fine count” is also reset
  • This does not prevent a commander that destroyed the perpetrator’s ship whilst having knowledge of their rap sheet from claiming the bounty
• Bounty vouchers once created will have to be cashed in within a particular time, or they will expire.

Crimes and Docking

• When a commander with a rap sheet arrives at a dock via escape pod they are automatically scanned and knowledge of their rap sheet for the current jurisdiction is given to the faction that controls the dock
• When a commander with a rap sheet arrives at a dock in their ship, they may be scanned:
  • The chance of being scanned is modified by reputation and ship appearance
  • If there is ‘hot pursuit’ by the same factional authority as that owning the dock, then the dock also has knowledge of the commander.
• No action is taken against a commander for crimes on the rap sheet that occurred in jurisdictions not under the control of the factional authority that owns the dock
• If a commander has crimes on their rap sheet that occurred within a jurisdiction controlled by the factional authority that owns the dock the following event automatically occurs:
  • The commander must pay off all fines before they can leave in addition to any payments required to obtain a ship
    • The commander must use a creditor if they lack the funds to pay off the fines
  • Based on chance and reputations, a commander may be able to bribe the dock authorities into “looking the other way”, allowing the commander to launch without paying off fines, or even to mark them as ‘cancelled’

Missions/Events and Exemptions

• Based on reputations, game logic and contacts, missions and events can be generated that affect a commander’s rap sheet
  • Rap sheets can be used to generate bounty missions awarded via bulletin boards and contacts
  • Based on reputation, events that allow commanders to hail authority vessels and bribe them to let the player escape (or even in extreme circumstances turn bounties into fines or clear rap sheets) can be generated
  • Contacts may be able to alter, reduce or clear rap sheets
    • Such services are rare and will always entail a cost of some kind
• Commanders with sufficiently high reputations can petition for Letters of Marque from the Empire or Warrants from the Federation
  • Letters of Marque and Warrants authorise attack and plunder of vessels openly allied to the specific opposition faction, but only in independent space (jurisdictions not controlled by the either opposing faction)
  • Letters of Marque or Warrants mean that certain actions are no longer crimes for that player.
  • Letters of Marque and Warrants can effectively give the player law enforcement powers in that area, and corresponding greatly reduced chance of scan/search.