Hull Reinforcement Packages - a drawback suitable?

[CMDR Corlas]

I'd love to give you video footage...
It is clear why you rarely see lasers in PvP, they need too much time for dealing damage,
if you check youtube for current PvP you see the following used:
Railgun
Fragment cannon
Torpedo
maybe Plasma Acc.

So what are these?
Heavy hitters, apparently you need artillery sized gunz to circumvent the meta-maximum HP/dmg builds.
What do those have as utility? Maximum heatsinks....
That is PvP in short, have big iron-rear and big gunz.
Is that fun?
Not to me.

I see your point in theory. World of Warcraft was the same for me; early PvP was pretty fast-paced and exciting. Then people with later expansion packs hit points got inflated, new PvP-damage reducing stats were added, and it became a thing where you had to gear yourself out a specifically to PvP, and it was a dull drawn-out slugfest. Boring.

I do like that high-damage weapons exist in the game, and naturally those are the ones that PvPers will choose. I think, in theory at least, the niche of lasers as "lower burst, but infinitely sustainable" is a good one to have. Both of these two need to mesh though, to a point where rails and frags and the like can still be clearly better in an encounter, but lasers are not pointless.

Part of this I think could be tied in to what I was saying previously about hull mass and engines; where a ship that was beefed up with big shields, boosters, HRP's, big guns, and the big power plants to run it all, took a performance hit from it. It would make finding that balance a bit easier by adding in more natural give-and-take at all aspects of the game.

 

[Julio Montega]

I see your point in theory. World of Warcraft was the same for me; early PvP was pretty fast-paced and exciting. Then people with later expansion packs hit points got inflated, new PvP-damage reducing stats were added, and it became a thing where you had to gear yourself out a specifically to PvP, and it was a dull drawn-out slugfest. Boring.

I do like that high-damage weapons exist in the game, and naturally those are the ones that PvPers will choose. I think, in theory at least, the niche of lasers as "lower burst, but infinitely sustainable" is a good one to have. Both of these two need to mesh though, to a point where rails and frags and the like can still be clearly better in an encounter, but lasers are not pointless.

Part of this I think could be tied in to what I was saying previously about hull mass and engines; where a ship that was beefed up with big shields, boosters, HRP's, big guns, and the big power plants to run it all, took a performance hit from it. It would make finding that balance a bit easier by adding in more natural give-and-take at all aspects of the game.

I agree with you,
but we would keep the slugfest in
and the next logical update would be increasing weapon damage, right?
So, i'd love if the Devs had a copy of the original game without
any SCBs, HRPs and Boosters hosted on a testserver for a week or two,
so people could experience what we started with and rate that.

Maybe they'll agree that combat back then was combat, with a multitude of tasks,
apart from pulling the trigger, popping a scb or running silent.
Of course you had the awkward dmg maxxed builds,
but i think it was more manageable back then,
since combat didn't last as long.

 

[StiTch]

I agree with you,
but we would keep the slugfest in
and the next logical update would be increasing weapon damage, right?
So, i'd love if the Devs had a copy of the original game without
any SCBs, HRPs and Boosters hosted on a testserver for a week or two,
so people could experience what we started with and rate that.

Maybe they'll agree that combat back then was combat, with a multitude of tasks,
apart from pulling the trigger, popping a scb or running silent.

Again...this kinda stuff is okay when you have dedicated PVP servers. But all too often people suggest making a change that will affect 99% of the players to counter an issue 1% of the players are annoyed at.

You take out HRPs and SCBs, my courier turns to dust in combat. And now I have to buy a bigger ship to enjoy combat. And then you're in the pitfall every game OTHER than Elite is stuck in; the more expensive stuff is better. And after all that, people will find the new meta and there'll be whining about that too

 

[Julio Montega]

Again...this kinda stuff is okay when you have dedicated PVP servers. But all too often people suggest making a change that will affect 99% of the players to counter an issue 1% of the players are annoyed at.

You take out HRPs and SCBs, my courier turns to dust in combat. And now I have to buy a bigger ship to enjoy combat. And then you're in the pitfall every game OTHER than Elite is stuck in; the more expensive stuff is better. And after all that, people will find the new meta and there'll be whining about that too

You mean like the 1% players asking for SCBs, because they were stomped at PvE,
or killed by the occasional professional murderer terrorizing docking ports?

Would it hurt to have a testserver run an old build just to experience combat back then yourself?
Surely NPCs don't react and didn't react to stealth, that is an issue for the stealth build,
but you only know you have accomplished something good when you bested an enemy
having more firepower than you by great piloting, energy management and smart choices of engagement,
without any second floor like more HP or ways to replenish them.

 

[StiTch]

Would it hurt to have a testserver run an old build just to experience combat back then yourself?
Surely NPCs don't react and didn't react to stealth, that is an issue for the stealth build,
but you only know you have accomplished something good when you bested an enemy
having more firepower than you by great piloting, energy management and smart choices of engagement,
without any second floor like more HP or ways to replenish them.

The stealth thing - I agree here. And FD acknowledged that NPC AI has flaws, which is why it's getting an upgrade. I can't remember if there's anything specific to their sensor response (I really hope so, because SR on smuggling builds might finally be effective!) alongside the heat management changes etc.

I love a good challenge. I really, really do. But making life difficult for all the smaller ships isn't the answer If I want a challenge I'll run my Courier into a CZ and join the losing side, and I'll hammer out power plants until there's a small graveyard of semi-dead ships floating around...(I think that's the sadism talking).

As it happens, there are probably a few changes that need to be made in this game - as any. But HRPs are one of the few balanced things, and they're one of the few chances to add bulk. And not every newer player would appreciate that to take out another ship they have to suddenly master piloting, pip control, smart engagement etc. etc.

 

[Julio Montega]

The stealth thing - I agree here. And FD acknowledged that NPC AI has flaws, which is why it's getting an upgrade. I can't remember if there's anything specific to their sensor response (I really hope so, because SR on smuggling builds might finally be effective!) alongside the heat management changes etc.

Totally. It needs to be fixed, but not without thinking about the future implementation of Guardian-ships (small ship hangar).
Isinona has a great vid about stealth here and how NPCs seem to have reacted:
[video=youtube;EZfE4XGPQO8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZfE4XGPQO8[/video]

I love a good challenge. I really, really do. But making life difficult for all the smaller ships isn't the answer If I want a challenge I'll run my Courier into a CZ and join the losing side, and I'll hammer out power plants until there's a small graveyard of semi-dead ships floating around...(I think that's the sadism talking).

As it happens, there are probably a few changes that need to be made in this game - as any. But HRPs are one of the few balanced things, and they're one of the few chances to add bulk. And not every newer player would appreciate that to take out another ship they have to suddenly master piloting, pip control, smart engagement etc. etc.

What do you think, why we only see some weapons used in PvP?
Is this because defensive modules are balanced?
I highly doubt that,
as for your aforementioned "hard life" of small ships,
i can only point out, that playing smart (engaging, disengaging, reengaging) is
something you should learn in the small ships.

You also train your piloting a lot and can easily
outturn bigger ships.
It will be more difficult without measures to cancel your mistakes resulting in damage,
no doubt.
But what is a challenge here?
Will players still enjoy doing bounty hunting when NPCs are adapting the
pure HRP builds?
I doubt that aswell.

We have three kinds of weapons basically:
fixed, gimballed and turreted.

With the increase of ship-hp due to means like SCBs and HRPs
weapons with lower damage are falling out of the choice,
as you need to counter more and more hitpoints.

Turrets and gimbals have the advantage of staying longer time on target,
but they have reduced damage compared to fixed weaponry.
As hitpoints increase furthermore, the ships needing longer time
dealing the same damage as burst builds are becoming less incentive
as a choice regarding combat roles.

 

[StiTch]

What do you think, why we only see some weapons used in PvP?
Is this because defensive modules are balanced?
I highly doubt that,
as for your aforementioned "hard life" of small ships,
i can only point out, that playing smart (engaging, disengaging, reengaging) is
something you should learn in the small ships.

Bud, I can floor a conda in an Eagle. But you can't assume that everyone should have 110% skill to play a game. Some people are part timers, some people are new.

PvP sees the same things used because it's most effective. There is no such thing as 100% balance in a game, and people are going to find the most effective route. It's no fault of FD, it's no fault of anyone. Why is there even the term Meta? Because across all games, people are going to find that damn way of optimising their loadout. The meta isn't going away and no amount of nerfing HRPs will change that. All you've done is break one of the few defenses against a wall of railguns-it's not like killing HRPs suddenly makes them turreted lasers as powerful as railguns.

Part of the change in meta was caused by the SCB nerf, which meant that with shields no longer being the tanking of choice lasers lost their oomph. Not because suddenly lasers suck. And if you change the face of HRPs, either all PvP engagements last 5 seconds or people adapt defensively, then people change offensively, and you've changed the meta. Not removed it.

The thing is...I really really appreciate that a game where people's loadouts are unique to them, and a fundamental part of their playstyle, is an awesome and beautiful thing. But it's why in most games I avoid PvP being the backbone of my playing; because a balanced PvP game is nigh on impossible to achieve. I have no doubt you have good intentions here, but it's not a tenable nerf.

 

[Ziljan]

Since the HRPs make small ships more viable, I am going to have to say "no". Agility/Speed is vital for small ships and HRPs already mess with mass-sensitive ships like the Viper too much already.

Now if you want to make higher class HRPS a bit heavier to impact larger ship agility more, then I'm all for it.

 

[StiTch]

Since the HRPs make small ships more viable, I am going to have to "no". Agility/Speed is vital for small ships and HRPs already mess with mass-sensitive ships like the Viper too much already.

Now if you want to make higher class HRPS a bit heavier to impact larger ship agility more, then I'm all for it.

This was something kind of already approached, though by a different method; the higher classes have less of a hull HP boost compared to the weight. 110HP to 2T for a 1D HRP against 390HP to 32T for a 5D. Roughly 3 and a half times more HP, sixteen times the weight. I think it was discussed somewhere that larger ships should take more of an agility nerf outside the blue zone of thrust, to which I'd kind of agree, but that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[Julio Montega]

Bud, I can floor a conda in an Eagle. But you can't assume that everyone should have 110% skill to play a game. Some people are part timers, some people are new.

Yes people are part timers and some are new,
they still can enjoy combat.
We all started relatively safe and we still have these areas:
low/high rez and beacons.
You get a lot of firesupport there from lawful NPCs
and can time your attacks in case you want assistance.
So the areas to train yourself are still there,
for harder PvE combat you need experience,
that is my point of view.

But back to the discussion:

This was something kind of already approached, though by a different method; the higher classes have less of a hull HP boost compared to the weight. 110HP to 2T for a 1D HRP against 390HP to 32T for a 5D. Roughly 3 and a half times more HP, sixteen times the weight. I think it was discussed somewhere that larger ships should take more of an agility nerf outside the blue zone of thrust, to which I'd kind of agree, but that's a different kettle of fish.

If the latter one would be implemented, that would be very sweet,
any link to the discussion to cross-check?
Regarding small ships, i agree, as was pointed out,
that a flat weight increase would just impact them more, than larger ships.