Powerplay If FD decided it could take the time to implement Open Only for Powerplay, do you think it should go to a public vote?

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Trust me when I say that the mechanics of PP have driven exponentially more people away from it than these so-called "elitists" (as amusing as it is to bandy that particular term around here! :))
Oh, i don't doubt it, and its why we have discussed in many threads on the topic how Sandro's other proposals (and probably more) is needed to get more people playing. My thoughts being, if they added those other features, then in my mind open only is not needed.

If they added PP missions, the ability for powers to rise and fall, more dynamics borders due to how the groups play, and other stuff, then i'm pretty sure that would get lots more people playing... and then slap open only on top, and bang, you shut out all those players who might otherwise enjoy PP.

I understand some people are frustrated they can't shoot people who are hauling as part of the gameplay if they choose to fly in other modes. But many of us enjoy working the BGS from whatever mode we choose, and if you are making the argument for PP to be open only, you might as well be making the same argument about the BGS and CGs.

I would like FD to make PP great, without making it open only, that is all. But the open only crowd keep telling me my opinion doesn't count because i don't play PP in its current poor form. Its a shame.
 
As many people including myself have said, Powerplay has to offer something unique and new for them to justify taking part in it. Open satisfies that requirement- otherwise what separates current Powerplays gameplay from the new BGS?
Why can't it be something else that justifies it? Why does it have to be open only?

Ok, i know, because you and the other experts have brainstormed for years on the topic and can't think of another solution.

As for what separates them, well, i think we discussed this before, and what I had hoped for with PP was for it to be an extension to the BGS, not something practically divorced from it. I mean, you can have Federal powers controlling imperial systems, which makes zero sense to me. Surely if all the work has been done to take control of a system, then that system should change hands. Its why i wanted powers to grow out of factions when they reach a certain size, and for powers to fall should they drop beneath a certain size. But hey, like for many people, we didn't get what we wanted from PP :p
 
Trust me when I say that the mechanics of PP have done exponentially more to drive people away from it than these so-called "elitists" (as amusing as it is to bandy that particular term around here! :))
Big time agree here. The current version of PP IS the version held onto by a group of elitists, while on the other hand most people take one look at the steaming pile and pass it up to do something else.
 
Why can't it be something else that justifies it? Why does it have to be open only?
because there has been no other proposal (or even hint of) from frontier apart from that one?

but since it was a dud it's all just words anyway :)

the point of beating dead horses was never to bring them back to life i think ...
 
Oh, i don't doubt it, and its why we have discussed in many threads on the topic how Sandro's other proposals (and probably more) is needed to get more people playing. My thoughts being, if they added those other features, then in my mind open only is not needed.

If they added PP missions, the ability for powers to rise and fall, more dynamics borders due to how the groups play, and other stuff, then i'm pretty sure that would get lots more people playing... and then slap open only on top, and bang, you shut out all those players who might otherwise enjoy PP.

I understand some people are frustrated they can't shoot people who are hauling as part of the gameplay if they choose to fly in other modes. But many of us enjoy working the BGS from whatever mode we choose, and if you are making the argument for PP to be open only, you might as well be making the same argument about the BGS and CGs.

I would like FD to make PP great, without making it open only, that is all. But the open only crowd keep telling me my opinion doesn't count because i don't play PP in its current poor form. Its a shame.
See, this is a source of frustration for me.

There seems to be universal agreement that PvP in Elite lacks significant connection to the rest of the game, yet when it is proposed that the best available vehicle for making PvP relevant be treated as such, we see howls of indignation- often from people who neither play nor understand it.

One could be forgiven for suspecting that there are those whose main motive is to sabotage the very validity of PvP in Elite, and not actually take steps to improve it.
 
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Why can't it be something else that justifies it? Why does it have to be open only?

Ok, i know, because you and the other experts have brainstormed for years on the topic and can't think of another solution.

As for what separates them, well, i think we discussed this before, and what I had hoped for with PP was for it to be an extension to the BGS, not something practically divorced from it. I mean, you can have Federal powers controlling imperial systems, which makes zero sense to me. Surely if all the work has been done to take control of a system, then that system should change hands. Its why i wanted powers to grow out of factions when they reach a certain size, and for powers to fall should they drop beneath a certain size. But hey, like for many people, we didn't get what we wanted from PP :p
FD have given their proposal, they have set the scope of what can be changed and what with. Most of the proposal fixes current issues with 5C. One change makes UM easier. One other changes the game and unlocks a whole chunk of possibilities that has been outlined, gameplay that would be unique in ED and not offered anywhere else.

Its obvious from Sandros proposal that significant dev time is not coming to Powerplay- so what FD do has to really spice things up cheaply.

Ok, i know, because you and the other experts have brainstormed for years on the topic and can't think of another solution.

So you never read the other proposals from people like myself? You know, the ones that are mode agnostic? Stuff like this? https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/powerplay-proposal-for-redesign-using-bgs-style-mechanics-that-work-with-the-new-bgs.508604/

Yes, I can't think of other stuff at all, such is my Ahab focus on Open. I'm simply being realistic, and seeing the opportunity.
 
See, this is a source of frustration for me.

There seems to be universal agreement that PvP in Elite lacks significant connection to the rest of the game, yet when it is proposed that the best available vehicle for making PvP relevant be treated as such, we see howls of indignation- often from people who neither play nor understand it.

One could be forgiven for suspecting that there are those whose main motive is to sabotage the very validity of PvP in Elite, and not actually take steps to improve it.
Ok, so the first part, i don't see how it can make PvP relevant without removing the PvE component from it. As long as there is a PvE option to advance your power, it will be the easiest way to work the system.

Consider the scenarios we have with PP (if open only)

Two combat fitted players: neither of which is giving up cargo (propoganda materials), and fights tend to either result in one running quickly if outmatched, possibly being destroyed, or as is often the case, a 15 minute long battle while people chug SCBs or run and recharge etc. Merit gain is slow unless tweaked to give really high value for PvP kills.

Two haulers: Will probably just ignore each other.

Hauler vs combat fitted: Combat fitted will try and stop the hauler. I know there is a mechanic for PP piracy that can get you merits, i don't envision that happens much. So what happens, probably either gank, if the hauler is not competent, or the hauler escapes if competent (presumably flying something fast or strongly armoured/shielded). Its not hard to imagine in the open only scenario, people will either git gud or quit right? Alternately, chain interdictions are a thing, and if combat opposition is high, it might simply be too frustrating to even bother with.

Ok, so depending on how the mechanics actually play out, and what tweaks FD make to things, it probably means hauling is still going to be thet major part of PP, not PvP, and assuming that, the main part of PP would be combat ships trying to blow up haulers.

Now, call me old fashioned if you like, but that to me is not what I consider to be PvP. Its more like a game of stop the pidgeon.

If the aim is to make PvP relevant, then actually add a feature which makes PvP relevant. A gameplay mechanic that brings people together, in their combat fitted ships, with some sort of rewards for beating other players. A chance to show off your skill, to be crowned a king of PvP. Not just to show off how easily you can gank haulers. That's not PvP, its just a mindless grind to get easy kills.

As for your second point, maybe there are people like that. I'm not like that. I have nothing against PvP being a cool and valid part of the game. I think PvP as it stands in the game, especially since FD added all the modules and engineering, is currently in a very bad place. What I don't think makes PvP valid is gameplay which focused on combat fitted shooting at haulers. I'd much rather see gameplay that encourages combat fitted to go up against combat fitted. It would also quickly weed out the gankers and griefers, rather than encouraging them.

Just my 2 cents of course.
 
See, this is a source of frustration for me.

There seems to be universal agreement that PvP in Elite lacks significant connection to the rest of the game, yet when it is proposed that the best available vehicle for making PvP relevant be treated as such, we see howls of indignation- often from people who neither play nor understand it.

One could be forgiven for suspecting that there are those whose main motive is to sabotage the very validity of PvP in Elite, and not actually take steps to improve it.
There's no doubt about: the endgame here is just that, the sabotaging of the very validity of PvP in ED. The arguments by the usual suspects are quite simply window dressing. We're having these arguments with posters who's entire forum presence is dedicated to the agenda of removing, obstructing or otherwise sabotaging PvP related content.

That's fine, an agenda is an agenda and most of us old timers are here to push ours, I just prefer cards on the table pro-honesty about our intentions.
 
FD have given their proposal, they have set the scope of what can be changed and what with. Most of the proposal fixes current issues with 5C. One change makes UM easier. One other changes the game and unlocks a whole chunk of possibilities that has been outlined, gameplay that would be unique in ED and not offered anywhere else.

Its obvious from Sandros proposal that significant dev time is not coming to Powerplay- so what FD do has to really spice things up cheaply.

Ok, i know, because you and the other experts have brainstormed for years on the topic and can't think of another solution.

So you never read the other proposals from people like myself? You know, the ones that are mode agnostic? Stuff like this? https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/powerplay-proposal-for-redesign-using-bgs-style-mechanics-that-work-with-the-new-bgs.508604/

Yes, I can't think of other stuff at all, such is my Ahab focus on Open. I'm simply being realistic, and seeing the opportunity.
So, you can think of things that don't involve making PP open only or favouring open? Great!

And yes, it doesn't seem likely that FD will put much effort into PP, since its unlikely their upcoming major update is not related to it. But just making PP open only will not offer any significant improvement to gameplay from my perspective. The actual gameplay for PP is simply too bland. The main way to progress is simply A to B hauling, over and over and over again. Enforcing PvP won't do much to encourage a lot of people (although it might encourage some) and might actually push away a lot of players, resulting in even less players participating.

I could be wrong of course, but i think FD making PP open only, without significant other changes, would be the final death knell of the feature.
 
There's no doubt about: the endgame here is just that, the sabotaging of the very validity of PvP in ED. The arguments by the usual suspects are quite simply window dressing. We're having these arguments with posters who's entire forum presence is dedicated to the agenda of removing, obstructing or otherwise sabotaging PvP related content.

That's fine, an agenda is an agenda and most of us old timers are here to push ours, I just prefer cards on the table pro-honesty about our intentions.
Well, if you presume that is my motive, and i somehow have some influence over FD so my arguments will sway them, you might as well give up now! :D

Also, please, read my reply about how i think PvP should be valid.
 
Ok, so the first part, i don't see how it can make PvP relevant without removing the PvE component from it. As long as there is a PvE option to advance your power, it will be the easiest way to work the system.

Consider the scenarios we have with PP (if open only)

Two combat fitted players: neither of which is giving up cargo (propoganda materials), and fights tend to either result in one running quickly if outmatched, possibly being destroyed, or as is often the case, a 15 minute long battle while people chug SCBs or run and recharge etc. Merit gain is slow unless tweaked to give really high value for PvP kills.

Two haulers: Will probably just ignore each other.

Hauler vs combat fitted: Combat fitted will try and stop the hauler. I know there is a mechanic for PP piracy that can get you merits, i don't envision that happens much. So what happens, probably either gank, if the hauler is not competent, or the hauler escapes if competent (presumably flying something fast or strongly armoured/shielded). Its not hard to imagine in the open only scenario, people will either git gud or quit right? Alternately, chain interdictions are a thing, and if combat opposition is high, it might simply be too frustrating to even bother with.

Ok, so depending on how the mechanics actually play out, and what tweaks FD make to things, it probably means hauling is still going to be thet major part of PP, not PvP, and assuming that, the main part of PP would be combat ships trying to blow up haulers.

Now, call me old fashioned if you like, but that to me is not what I consider to be PvP. Its more like a game of stop the pidgeon.

If the aim is to make PvP relevant, then actually add a feature which makes PvP relevant. A gameplay mechanic that brings people together, in their combat fitted ships, with some sort of rewards for beating other players. A chance to show off your skill, to be crowned a king of PvP. Not just to show off how easily you can gank haulers. That's not PvP, its just a mindless grind to get easy kills.

As for your second point, maybe there are people like that. I'm not like that. I have nothing against PvP being a cool and valid part of the game. I think PvP as it stands in the game, especially since FD added all the modules and engineering, is currently in a very bad place. What I don't think makes PvP valid is gameplay which focused on combat fitted shooting at haulers. I'd much rather see gameplay that encourages combat fitted to go up against combat fitted. It would also quickly weed out the gankers and griefers, rather than encouraging them.

Just my 2 cents of course.
As of right now, Powerplay is pretty much alt-BGS. Unlike the BGS, it is a mechanic designed specifically to pit groups of players against one another, and the success or failure of such rests entirely upon the group's collective efforts. What's more, PvP can and absolutely has made a difference. Entire cycles have hinged on last-minute pewpews, though incidences of such are admittedly rare.

Of all the dogs in the game that need to be thrown a bone, Powerplay is the one that's barking the loudest (as opposed to CQC, which in my view needs to be taken out behind the barn and shot). PP in its current iteration has all the makings of a min-max grind, and the only thing saving it from being such is when the individual players choose for it not to be. Even so, there's nothing to stop legions of cargo Cutters from hauling endlessly hauling merits from point A to point B in the safety of PG or solo. Such an approach is valid within the rules of the game but hardly in the spirit of what I am charitably assuming was the developers' intent.

Open-only powerplay would be to the BGS as fighting Thargoids is to regular human NPCs. It would be similar but by design more challenging. It would force (yes, force, the boogieman word of the PvE crowd) the players of such to both outfit their ships strategically and engage in the cooperation of their fellow teammates. One might say that in order to engage in OOPP, gitting gud would be required to a degree, in the same way that such is needed if one is endeavoring to engage Thargoids.

This dynamic would improve PP immeasurably by adding in the element of uncertainty to one's play. Instead of a brain-dead truck-driving route or endlessly blasting NPCs, one must plan ahead. Is there a hostile wing in the destination system? Am I, the player, prepared to engage that wing if there is? What is the best balance between cargo capacity and survivability? Are there any friendlies nearby I can call upon for help? How badly will it hurt my power if I, and the merits I'm hauling, are destroyed. How badly can I hurt the other power by tracking down and destroying their own players?

These are the organic, human-driven dynamics of how OOPP will turn a stagnant, grindy mechanic into something that resembles a sub-game worth one's time. I don't know if PP can ever be revolutionized to be anything except token-pushing, but I do know that it's PvP's best chance at impacting the game in a meaningful way.

And in regards to those players who simply can't stomach the idea of human adversity? Who can't be bothered to learn evasive skills or outfit their ship appropriately?

Not every little aspect of every game is going to be for everyone. Watering down an exciting, competitive dynamic to hold the hands of those who can't handle said dynamic does no favors to anyone. As callous as that may sound, it's the bare truth.

If every dog has its day, then let Frontier throw the PvP community this one bone.
 
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So, you can think of things that don't involve making PP open only or favouring open? Great!

And yes, it doesn't seem likely that FD will put much effort into PP, since its unlikely their upcoming major update is not related to it. But just making PP open only will not offer any significant improvement to gameplay from my perspective. The actual gameplay for PP is simply too bland. The main way to progress is simply A to B hauling, over and over and over again. Enforcing PvP won't do much to encourage a lot of people (although it might encourage some) and might actually push away a lot of players, resulting in even less players participating.

I could be wrong of course, but i think FD making PP open only, without significant other changes, would be the final death knell of the feature.
Well, currently Grom is having his head kicked in, imagine if all his fortifiers were in open and could be attacked? What if Grom could disrupt the attackers? With all those players whizzing about think of the dynamic situations you'd have.

Your mistake is simply seeing fortifying as A to B hauling, UM and expansion as grindy pew pew. In Solo and PG it is, in Open the potential for interception, proper escapes based on skill, massive wing fights, overwatch.....the difference is night and day. It won't be perfect, but out of all the options we have on the table its the best to put some meat on the bones.
 
Fine, in that case, let's have NPC wingmen only available in PG/solo. After all, in open no need for NPC wingmen, you have other players to fly with.
You might be thinking, "This argument will shut him up!" when in reality I'm thinking, "YES PLEASE!!!!" Seriously, if this game had Skyrim NPCs with Dragon Dogma's companion system, I'd never have to play in Open again :D
 
Well, if you presume that is my motive, and i somehow have some influence over FD so my arguments will sway them, you might as well give up now! :D

Also, please, read my reply about how i think PvP should be valid.
I specifically said on this forum, old friend. Yours is the craft of swaying public (community) opinion in an attempt to influence us as a whole and thereby exert influence on Fdev. All of your proposals about being pro-PvP are a thinly disguised sham, and amount to little more than a (figuratively speaking) knife in the back waiting to be plunged in. You've been working overtime to hold that aspect of this game back for as long as I've known you, which is as long as I've been playing this game or part of the community. Let's just get that out there, AA, because pro-honesty is important. I'm not making a value judgment on whether that's good or bad, but rather just saying it like it is. You are entirely and unrepentantly anti-PvP, no matter how you try to dress it up.

edited for typo
 
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Well, currently Grom is having his head kicked in, imagine if all his fortifiers were in open and could be attacked? What if Grom could disrupt the attackers? With all those players whizzing about think of the dynamic situations you'd have.

Your mistake is simply seeing fortifying as A to B hauling, UM and expansion as grindy pew pew. In Solo and PG it is, in Open the potential for interception, proper escapes based on skill, massive wing fights, overwatch.....the difference is night and day. It won't be perfect, but out of all the options we have on the table its the best to put some meat on the bones.
We've had situations like that in the past, where federation forces have camped and actively prevented imperials from expanding or interfering with one of their expansions.

The problem was it was consensual open only. Once one side or the other decides to go PG, it becomes a poopooty grind competition, and not a shooting war with ships exploding, brave delaying actions, and heroes trying to run a blockade.

I am not a good PvPer, but I know a lot of people who are. You have to recognize the need for this kind of thing in the game, because professional grinder competitions from solo are not fun. Give it a try, worst thing that happens is that murder hobos join a team and spend more time playing this than torturing randoms.
 
I specifically said on this forum, old friend. Yours is the craft of swaying public (community) opinion in an attempt to influence us as a whole and thereby exert influence on Fdev. All of your proposals about being pro-PvP are a thinly disguised sham, and amount to little more than a (figuratively speaking) knife in the back waiting to be plunged in. You've been working overtime to hold that aspect of this game back for as long as I've known you, which is as long as I've been playing this game or part of the community. Let's just get that out there, AA, because pro-honesty is important. I'm not making a value judgment on whether that's good or bad, but rather just saying it like it is. You are entirely and unrepentantly anti-PvP, no matter how you try to dress it up.

edited for typo
Well, i think you give me waaay too much credit. But if so, i'll certainly use my powers of influence to get FD to do what I want :D

EDIT: You seriously think our debates here actually influence FD? You should tell all those people who declare FD don't listen to us :D
 
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Well, currently Grom is having his head kicked in, imagine if all his fortifiers were in open and could be attacked? What if Grom could disrupt the attackers? With all those players whizzing about think of the dynamic situations you'd have.

Your mistake is simply seeing fortifying as A to B hauling, UM and expansion as grindy pew pew. In Solo and PG it is, in Open the potential for interception, proper escapes based on skill, massive wing fights, overwatch.....the difference is night and day. It won't be perfect, but out of all the options we have on the table its the best to put some meat on the bones.
So, his head is currently being kicked in with the current system, so... if everyone was in open, he'd still be getting his head kicked in?

I mean, at the end of the day, its all about player numbers really. The more you have, the more people who have hauling, doing PvP, or whatever, and on average, you're going to have roughly the same quality of people between powers.

So, yeah, i understand the game changes if we have open only, i don't expect there would be much difference in result.

Also, regarding "what if grom could disrupt the attackers", that's interesting considering the general accusation i've seen on reddit is that Grom is full of Russian botters and PvEers who can't PvP :p I'm sure that isn't true though, its just general salt that occurs in competitive games, where your side are always the good guys and the other side are the bad guys.
 
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